575 réponses à ce sujet

[Zkyire]

They seem to be doing their best just to survive. I don't agree with *how* she goes about it, but to be to be fair to Merill, nobody else in her clan is really doing anything to push themselves forward.

[Bionuts]

Reaverwind wrote...


Merrill represents stagnation. It's one thing to want to learn about your history. It's another entirely to be fixated to the exclusion of all else, rather trying to move your people forward. Seven-plus years she spends on that stupid mirror - seven years that could have been spent more producitvely - and what does she have to show for it? Nothing!

Merril was raised to be a keeper of Elven lore, to search for their past. These are things she was raised to do. She is compelled to care about such things.

Dalish search for their history. They have no interest in submitting to human culture, so there's nowhere for them to go but their past.

Saying "stupid mirror" proves what I'm saying. You're speaking with weird emotion instead of looking at the context of the situation. You're not looking at the desperation in the situation. That mirror was very powerful. For good or ill, it was very powerful. Dismissing such things as "stupid" does nothing for you.

Nobody with an ounce of intelligence disregards power so easily. 7 years is very little in the grand scheme of things. There is no telling what she could have found had Marethari not been decieved by the demon. Perhaps it would have been or bad, but it was worth finding out.

I'm more alarmed that there are people who would break the mirror instead of trying to fix it.

[Rawgrim]

I dunno. Her actions basically got her entire clan killed. And she had about 50 warnings about not messing with the stuff she did beforehand. Given the time leaps, people had actually been warning her about it for years.

[Wulfram]

Rawgrim wrote...

I dunno. Her actions basically got her entire clan killed. And she had about 50 warnings about not messing with the stuff she did beforehand. Given the time leaps, people had actually been warning her about it for years.

Marethari's actions got the clan killed, as well as those of the clan themselves.  Merrill left to herself would have at worst got herself and a whole bunch of humans and flat ears get killed, but the Dalish would have been fine - they'd only have lost a First who was probably not well suited to be Keeper anyway.

Modifié par Wulfram, 18 septembre 2013 - 02:49 .

[Rawgrim]

Wulfram wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I dunno. Her actions basically got her entire clan killed. And she had about 50 warnings about not messing with the stuff she did beforehand. Given the time leaps, people had actually been warning her about it for years.

Marethari's actions got the clan killed, as well as those of the clan themselves.  Merrill left to herself would have at worst got herself and a whole bunch of humans and flat ears get killed, but the Dalish would have been fine - they'd only have lost a First who was probably not well suited to be Keeper anyway.

Seemed more like The Keeper took a bullet for merill, than anything else.

[Ryzaki]

Rawgrim wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I dunno. Her actions basically got her entire clan killed. And she had about 50 warnings about not messing with the stuff she did beforehand. Given the time leaps, people had actually been warning her about it for years.

Marethari's actions got the clan killed, as well as those of the clan themselves.  Merrill left to herself would have at worst got herself and a whole bunch of humans and flat ears get killed, but the Dalish would have been fine - they'd only have lost a First who was probably not well suited to be Keeper anyway.

Seemed more like The Keeper took a bullet for merill, than anything else.

yeah Keeper's issue was she cared too much. She should've washed her hands of Merrill. Merill would've ended up killed by hawke after going abomination.

[Reaverwind]

Bionuts wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...


Merrill represents stagnation. It's one thing to want to learn about your history. It's another entirely to be fixated to the exclusion of all else, rather trying to move your people forward. Seven-plus years she spends on that stupid mirror - seven years that could have been spent more producitvely - and what does she have to show for it? Nothing!

Merril was raised to be a keeper of Elven lore, to search for their past. These are things she was raised to do. She is compelled to care about such things.

Dalish search for their history. They have no interest in submitting to human culture, so there's nowhere for them to go but their past.

Saying "stupid mirror" proves what I'm saying. You're speaking with weird emotion instead of looking at the context of the situation. You're not looking at the desperation in the situation. That mirror was very powerful. For good or ill, it was very powerful. Dismissing such things as "stupid" does nothing for you.

Nobody with an ounce of intelligence disregards power so easily. 7 years is very little in the grand scheme of things. There is no telling what she could have found had Marethari not been decieved by the demon. Perhaps it would have been or bad, but it was worth finding out.

I'm more alarmed that there are people who would break the mirror instead of trying to fix it.

No one said anything about submitting to the humans. There's nowhere to go but the past? No wonder the Dalish are in trouble - no innovation.

You forget that Merrill was working on that mirror with NO interference from the Clan for seven years. Even with the PC helping obtain the tools she thinks she needs - the outcome is still the same - she gains nothing.And she's relying on the advice of the demon, who is very likely omitting some important details, if not outright lying.

You're right - no one disregards power - especially when it's the kind of power that comes back to bite you in the ass. Merrill flat-out did NOT know where the eluvian would lead. The smart thing would have been to isolate it and get a team to work on it. She should have reached out to other Clans. However, that's not something Merrill would do.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 18 septembre 2013 - 02:56 .

[Zombie_Alexis]

Bionuts wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...


Merrill represents stagnation. It's one thing to want to learn about your history. It's another entirely to be fixated to the exclusion of all else, rather trying to move your people forward. Seven-plus years she spends on that stupid mirror - seven years that could have been spent more producitvely - and what does she have to show for it? Nothing!

Merril was raised to be a keeper of Elven lore, to search for their past. These are things she was raised to do. She is compelled to care about such things.

Dalish search for their history. They have no interest in submitting to human culture, so there's nowhere for them to go but their past.

Saying "stupid mirror" proves what I'm saying. You're speaking with weird emotion instead of looking at the context of the situation. You're not looking at the desperation in the situation. That mirror was very powerful. For good or ill, it was very powerful. Dismissing such things as "stupid" does nothing for you.

Nobody with an ounce of intelligence disregards power so easily. 7 years is very little in the grand scheme of things. There is no telling what she could have found had Marethari not been decieved by the demon. Perhaps it would have been or bad, but it was worth finding out.

I'm more alarmed that there are people who would break the mirror instead of trying to fix it.

This.

I'm not so sure that the mirror itself is evil. If you've played Awakenings, you know the Eluvians are some sort of portal. To where is the mystery that will hopefully be answered when we see Morrigan in the next installment. Yes, Merrill's mirror was corrupted, but Merrill was trying to purify it. I don't see anything "stupid" in that. It seems like a perfectly legitimate project for her, considering her background. I always looked at the mirror as a neutral item, whereas it was how Hawke was role palyed and Marethari's character  who placed a moral value on it. As derpy as some people think Merrill is, I thought she actually had a sound scientific mind -- curiosity and experimentation through the process of elimination. Though I will admit she came off as a bit stubborn and socially awkward and naive.

I've role played it both ways, where the mirror was destroyed and where it was saved. I look forward to see the outcomes of both decisions with my individual play throughs in DAI.

[Sifr]

Bionuts wrote...

Saying "stupid mirror" proves what I'm saying. You're speaking with weird emotion instead of looking at the context of the situation. You're not looking at the desperation in the situation. That mirror was very powerful. For good or ill, it was very powerful. Dismissing such things as "stupid" does nothing for you.

Nobody with an ounce of intelligence disregards power so easily. 7 years is very little in the grand scheme of things. There is no telling what she could have found had Marethari not been decieved by the demon. Perhaps it would have been or bad, but it was worth finding out.

I'm more alarmed that there are people who would break the mirror instead of trying to fix it.

Precisely, it's like if they invented a Transporter like in Star Trek.

On the one hand you have technology that would revolutionise transport, remove our dependency on vehicles powered by fossil fuels, allow emergency services to instantly get on sight and save lives... or on the other hand, it could just as easily be used by unscrupulous people to beam those they hate into a freaking wall!

A telephone can provide communication and bring people together. But for most of the 20th century, it was more likely to be used by governments to give the order to push the big red button!

Destroying a new (or in this case lost and ancient) technology because it or it's possible appliciations could be potentially dangerous is foolish and short-sighted to say the least!

The Eluvian being destroyed because it was Tainted made sense, but once cleansed, learning to rebuild it and understand how it functions, could allow the Elves to build more! They could re-establish ties with each other, with the spans of distance between them no longer mattering, giving them a greater sense of community and allowing them to pool their research instead of once every ten years?

A side-question. Do those who destroy the Eluvian in DA2, choose to kill the Architect in Awakening?

His offer to give sentience to the Darkspawn and bring about new avenues of diplomacy, co-existence and research as a result, is by no means a certain thing and involved a heavy amount of faith, goodwill and risk?

Would we call the Warden stupid for wanting to take advantage of exactly the same opportunity?

Modifié par Sifr1449, 18 septembre 2013 - 03:02 .

[Ryzaki]

Eluvians only work when you have 2 of them. So yeah Merrill was wasting her time. She would've had to locate another Eluvian (not to mention untainted and safe to use the one in the DE origin apparently lead somewhere extremely tainted) to get any usage out of it. Not to mention she can't even move the damn thing so it's stuck in the alienage. Yay?

A side-question. Do those who destroy the Eluvian in DA2, choose to kill the Architect in Awakening?

Uh yes. I'm not letting an intelligent darkspawn who kidnapped and murdered Wardens live and spread the blight even more and make darkspawn potentially more intelligent. They're hard enough to deal with stupid. Any alliance with them would be temproary at best. Best nip that problem in the bud.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 septembre 2013 - 03:05 .

[Bionuts]

Reaverwind wrote...


No one said anything about submitting to the humans. There's nowhere to go but the past? No wonder the Dalish are in trouble - no innovation.

You forget that Merrill was working on that mirror with NO interference from the Clan for seven years. Even with the PC helping obtain the tools she thinks she needs - the outcome is still the same - she gains nothing.And she's relying on the advice of the demon, who is very likely omitting some important details, if not outright lying.

You're right - no one disregards power - especially when it's the kind of power that comes back to bite you in the ass. Merrill flat-out did NOT know where the eluvian would lead. The smart thing would have been to isolate it and get a team to work on it. She should have reached out to other Clans. However, that's not something Merrill would do.

I'm arguing for the reasons she's working on the mirror, not how she went about it. I agree she handled it wrong, I said that before.

One of Merril's biggest problems is pride. She wanted to be the one who was credited for it.

[Reaverwind]

Sifr1449 wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

Saying "stupid mirror" proves what I'm saying. You're speaking with weird emotion instead of looking at the context of the situation. You're not looking at the desperation in the situation. That mirror was very powerful. For good or ill, it was very powerful. Dismissing such things as "stupid" does nothing for you.

Nobody with an ounce of intelligence disregards power so easily. 7 years is very little in the grand scheme of things. There is no telling what she could have found had Marethari not been decieved by the demon. Perhaps it would have been or bad, but it was worth finding out.

I'm more alarmed that there are people who would break the mirror instead of trying to fix it.

Precisely, it's like if they invented a Transporter like in Star Trek.

I think a better parallel is the Star Gate - if you don't know what you're opening a portal to - you're in for a rude shock. 

[Knight of Dane]

Rawgrim wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I dunno. Her actions basically got her entire clan killed. And she had about 50 warnings about not messing with the stuff she did beforehand. Given the time leaps, people had actually been warning her about it for years.

Marethari's actions got the clan killed, as well as those of the clan themselves.  Merrill left to herself would have at worst got herself and a whole bunch of humans and flat ears get killed, but the Dalish would have been fine - they'd only have lost a First who was probably not well suited to be Keeper anyway.

Seemed more like The Keeper took a bullet for merill, than anything else.

Yeah, turn the clan against her, attempt to bully her back into their ranks and then get posessed.

Way to go mom.

[LobselVith8]

Reaverwind wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

Merril is not naive. She tells Hawke that she knows what she's doing is dangerous (but only on Rivalry path when she goes to your house). She knows that a lot of bad can come of it. She's willing to take the risk on the chance that it might help her people. 

Thinking a piece of history would mirculously alleviate her people's plight is indeed naive. So maybe she gets it working - so what? What does she expect to find? How will it help her people now? And she knows it's risky, but brings it to a populated area anyway? That's just plain stupid. 

It isn't stupid to think that technology can benefit people. It's simple one step, and communicating over vast differences could dramatically change things for the Dalish.

[MWImexico]

Reaverwind wrote...
... if you don't know what you're opening a portal to - you're in for a rude shock. 

This ^

At least Morrigan seemed to know exactly what she was doing.

[Sifr]

Reaverwind wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

Saying "stupid mirror" proves what I'm saying. You're speaking with weird emotion instead of looking at the context of the situation. You're not looking at the desperation in the situation. That mirror was very powerful. For good or ill, it was very powerful. Dismissing such things as "stupid" does nothing for you.

Nobody with an ounce of intelligence disregards power so easily. 7 years is very little in the grand scheme of things. There is no telling what she could have found had Marethari not been decieved by the demon. Perhaps it would have been or bad, but it was worth finding out.

I'm more alarmed that there are people who would break the mirror instead of trying to fix it.

Precisely, it's like if they invented a Transporter like in Star Trek.

I think a better parallel is the Star Gate - if you don't know what you're opening a portal to - you're in for a rude shock. 

You're right, a far better comparison, particularly since both oddly contain the possibility of being possessed by an evil parasite, with glowing eyes and a booming voice.

Ryzaki wrote....

Uh yes. I'm not letting an intelligent darkspawn who kidnapped and murdered Wardens live and spread the blight even more and make darkspawn potentially more intelligent. They're hard enough to deal with stupid. Any alliance with them would be temproary at best. Best nip that problem in the bud.

Seriously? You're saying that the Architect isn't doing precisely the same thing the Wardens would do in his place? Heck, we actually saw Avernus do the same precise thing! You'd condemn everyone to an eternal war to one that could be ended if they could perhaps be reasoned with, finding some way to modfify the Taint further and not infect others?

I'm not saying that you're wrong. I agree that sparing him might be very dangerous and have bad consequences, but dismissing it because it's dangerous without considering the possible benefits of his research?

But back on topic.

The person who posted earlier said it best, Merrill went about the Eluvian project in the wrong way, but her goal is noble and one I agree with.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 18 septembre 2013 - 03:28 .

[Ryzaki]

Sifr1449 wrote...
Seriously? You're saying that the Architect isn't doing precisely the same thing the Wardens would do in his place? Heck, we actually saw Avernus do the same precise thing! You'd condemn everyone to an eternal war to one that could be ended if they could perhaps be reasoned with, finding some way to modfify the Taint further and not infect others?

I'm not saying that you're wrong. I agree that sparing him might be very dangerous and have bad consequences, but dismissing it because it's dangerous without considering the possible benefits of his research?

But back on topic.

The person who posted earlier said it best, Merrill went about the Eluvian project in the wrong way, but her goal is noble and one I agree with.

Oh yeah if they were the darkspawn and the darkspawn were the wardens of course they would. But that matters little because I'm on my side. And I'm not allowing a species that even benign taints and corrupts my species and land to live. There's no way of peaceful coexistence when their very existence threatens mine.  They can't even safely be in the same land.

And in that time they're wasting trying to modify the taint (which most likely won't even be possible) lands are being corrupted and people are dying. Let's not forget how darkspawn breed either.

Oh there are possible benefits they are VASTLY outweighed by the disadvanatages. Especially since there was only a set amount of old gods anyway. We've already past the half way point. The blights are getting shorter and shorter. Why risk cultivating a new threat even more intelligent than the one you already had? 

And that's just assuming the Architect is telling the truth and *not* trying to screw the Wardens over.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 septembre 2013 - 03:35 .

[Reaverwind]

Sifr1449 wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

Saying "stupid mirror" proves what I'm saying. You're speaking with weird emotion instead of looking at the context of the situation. You're not looking at the desperation in the situation. That mirror was very powerful. For good or ill, it was very powerful. Dismissing such things as "stupid" does nothing for you.

Nobody with an ounce of intelligence disregards power so easily. 7 years is very little in the grand scheme of things. There is no telling what she could have found had Marethari not been decieved by the demon. Perhaps it would have been or bad, but it was worth finding out.

I'm more alarmed that there are people who would break the mirror instead of trying to fix it.

Precisely, it's like if they invented a Transporter like in Star Trek.

I think a better parallel is the Star Gate - if you don't know what you're opening a portal to - you're in for a rude shock. 

You're right, a far better comparison, particularly since both oddly contain the possibility of being possessed by an evil parasite, with glowing eyes and a booming voice.

Eh, I think Maretheri fell for some serious BS. My concern is this: No one seems to question how the eluvian got tainted in the first place. I think this point is important, because if it was a consequence of something on the other end, there's no guarantee it won't happen again. Having played through the Dalish origin, I really don't think anyone is going to like the destination. 

Modifié par Reaverwind, 18 septembre 2013 - 03:44 .

[syllogi]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I dunno. Her actions basically got her entire clan killed. And she had about 50 warnings about not messing with the stuff she did beforehand. Given the time leaps, people had actually been warning her about it for years.

Marethari's actions got the clan killed, as well as those of the clan themselves.  Merrill left to herself would have at worst got herself and a whole bunch of humans and flat ears get killed, but the Dalish would have been fine - they'd only have lost a First who was probably not well suited to be Keeper anyway.

Seemed more like The Keeper took a bullet for merill, than anything else.

Yeah, turn the clan against her, attempt to bully her back into their ranks and then get posessed.

Way to go mom.

We don't know how long Audacity had been influencing Marethari's actions, I had the impression that it had been using her fears for Merrill's safety to get to her, and it was her (the more experienced, powerful mage) it wanted all along.

[Bionuts]

There is no reason to trust the Architect. He is not stupid, he understands how humans think. If he was very serious about the matter, then he should've approached the Warden at a different time. Not minutes before he/she was going to fight the mother.

[Sifr]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...
Seriously? You're saying that the Architect isn't doing precisely the same thing the Wardens would do in his place? Heck, we actually saw Avernus do the same precise thing! You'd condemn everyone to an eternal war to one that could be ended if they could perhaps be reasoned with, finding some way to modfify the Taint further and not infect others?

I'm not saying that you're wrong. I agree that sparing him might be very dangerous and have bad consequences, but dismissing it because it's dangerous without considering the possible benefits of his research?

But back on topic.

The person who posted earlier said it best, Merrill went about the Eluvian project in the wrong way, but her goal is noble and one I agree with.

Oh yeah if they were the darkspawn and the darkspawn were the wardens of course they would. But that matters little because I'm on my side. And I'm not allowing a species that even benign taints and corrupts my species and land to live. There's no way of peaceful coexistence when their very existence threatens mine.  They can't even safely be in the same land.

And in that time they're wasting trying to modify the taint (which most likely won't even be possible) lands are being corrupted and people are dying. Let's not forget how darkspawn breed either.

Oh there are possible benefits they are VASTLY outweighed by the disadvanatages. Especially since there was only a set amount of old gods anyway. We've already past the half way point. The blights are getting shorter and shorter. Why risk cultivating a new threat even more intelligent than the one you already had? 

And that's just assuming the Architect is telling the truth and *not* trying to screw the Wardens over.

But the Joining Ritual, Avernus' research and the Architect using Warden's blood to bestow sentience all prove that modifying the Taint is possible. Difficult sure, but not impossible.

And I'm sure the Architect realises that after the Mother fiasco, turning more Broodmothers wouldn't be a good idea. Why would they even need to breed? Darkspawn are effectively biologically immortal, according to Word Of God? They only do because they want to replenish numbers for Blights, which could be ended?

He has no reason to lie. Granted he has no reason to tell the precise truth either, since he omitted the detail about Urthemiel, but he did seem remorseful for that and for the deaths caused at Vigil's Keep? I don't fully trust him, but I don't have any reason not to doubt his intentions are malevolent either.

But I suspect we're veering into an entirely different thread here.

[Knight of Dane]

syllogi wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I dunno. Her actions basically got her entire clan killed. And she had about 50 warnings about not messing with the stuff she did beforehand. Given the time leaps, people had actually been warning her about it for years.

Marethari's actions got the clan killed, as well as those of the clan themselves.  Merrill left to herself would have at worst got herself and a whole bunch of humans and flat ears get killed, but the Dalish would have been fine - they'd only have lost a First who was probably not well suited to be Keeper anyway.

Seemed more like The Keeper took a bullet for merill, than anything else.

Yeah, turn the clan against her, attempt to bully her back into their ranks and then get posessed.

Way to go mom.

We don't know how long Audacity had been influencing Marethari's actions, I had the impression that it had been using her fears for Merrill's safety to get to her, and it was her (the more experienced, powerful mage) it wanted all along.

It's a Pride demon. Marethari couldn't resist it because she was too proud, that's its concept.

Go to its lair in Act 1. There is a magical barrier.
Go its lair in Act 2, the barrier is gone and there is a cart in its place.
It's obvious someone was seeing the damned thing for a long time, and whom of Merrill and Marethari lived within its range of influence on Sundermount?

I don't think you need to be Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots, at least I think it's obvious that the Demon was influencing Marethari, the stronger and more experienced mage of the two, for quite some time.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 18 septembre 2013 - 03:47 .

[Ryzaki]

Sifr1449 wrote...

But the Joining Ritual, Avernus' research and the Architect using Warden's blood to bestow sentience all prove that modifying the Taint is possible. Difficult sure, but not impossible.

And I'm sure the Architect realises that after the Mother fiasco, turning more Broodmothers wouldn't be a good idea. Why would they even need to breed? Darkspawn are effectively biologically immortal, according to Word Of God? They only do because they want to replenish numbers for Blights, which could be ended?

He has no reason to lie. Granted he has no reason to tell the precise truth either, since he omitted the detail about Urthemiel, but he did seem remorseful for that and for the deaths caused at Vigil's Keep? I don't fully trust him, but I don't have any reason not to doubt his intentions are malevolent either.

But I suspect we're veering into an entirely different thread here.

Modify it sure but many of the base effects remain the same. (particularly the corruption factor). Not to mention Avernus is using bloodmagic is he not? And he's a mage? The treatment might not work for everyone (The warden drinking Avernus potion just gives them new abilities).

Not to mention all the recepients of that aren't fueled and born from the taint entirely.

that doesn't mean he won't try anothe rexperiement that will backfire spectaculary. There's only 2 more blights to go through (3 if Morrigan's child goes bonkers). It's just not worth it at all to me.

Why would they want to breed? If the taint is modified they'll clearly lose their immortality no? But disregarding that might just be a natural drive. Not needing to do something doesn't stop people from doing it.

Being remorseful for causing deaths and continuing to cause more deaths doesn't earn him favor from me. And kidnapping the Warden and experimenting on him/her (instead of you know trying to open a conversation) didn't earn him any good will with me either.

And yeah we are. I find him either incompetent or malevolent and neither justify to me letting him live and potentially make a bad problem worse. But yeah YMMV and all.

As for Merrill. I want rival Merrill to be helping CEs witht he veil tears. That would be awesome.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 septembre 2013 - 03:56 .

[BaronFonAphedron]

I don't understand Marethari, actually. If i were in her place, i would've explained Merrill that there's a big evil demon in the mirror who will destroy the clan and possess her once released, asked her to wait and promised to find a solution. Then Hawke arrives, Marethari gathers the clan, finishes repairs of the mirror, demon appears and gets brutally butchered by Hawke and the gang aaand everyone's alive and happy. Instead of this, keeper bravely tried to duel the demon, failed, and trapped the bastard inside her. Her sacrifice was noble, but unnecessary. There were another ways, there always are.

I don't think you need to be Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots, at least I think it's obvious that the Demon was influencing Marethari, the stronger and more experienced mage of the two, for quite some time.

Perhaps you're right