575 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

Reaverwind wrote...

Eh, I think Maretheri fell for some serious BS. My concern is this: No one seems to question how the eluvian got tainted in the first place. I think this point is important, because if it was a consequence of something on the other end, there's no guarantee it won't happen again. Having played through the Dalish origin, I really don't think anyone is going to like the destination. 

Marethari does seem to have dropped the ball at some point after reaching Kirkwall. But, since she apparently knows Flemeth and owed her an (undisclosed) debt, I wondered if her being forced to remain was part of that.

You raise a question. Was the Eluvian the source of the Taint in the cave or merely one of the things corrupted? The statue that parodies LotR implies that the ruin might reach the Deep Roads, so it's possible the Taint came via there, but it's ambiguous...

As for the Eluvian destination. Well, Morrigan mentions it can lead beyond the Fade and Tamlen mentions some kind of city, which always made me wonder if Arlathan and the Golden City weren't actually the same thing just misremembered? It seems strange that both got sundered from the world / corrupted and destroyed in some calamity, while their mythologies mention a group of gods being sealed away.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 18 septembre 2013 - 03:59 .

[Bionuts]

I assumed it was the black city.

Tamlen mentions a blackness and then a city.

[Iakus]

Reaverwind wrote...

Merrill represents stagnation. It's one thing to want to learn about your history. It's another entirely to be fixated to the exclusion of all else, rather trying to move your people forward. Seven-plus years she spends on that stupid mirror - seven years that could have been spent more producitvely - and what does she have to show for it? Nothing!

Reclaiming lost knowledge and history isn't stagnation.  I actually applaud Merrill's goals in repairng the Eluvian.

What I disagree with are her methods.  They are recklessly dangerous and end up getting people killed.

[Knight of Dane]

Bionuts wrote...

I assumed it was the black city.

Tamlen mentions a blackness and then a city.

I assumed it was a blighted, forgotten Arlathan.

If there was a Eluvian in all major Elven settlements, wouldn't that sort of be the central "hub"?

[syllogi]

Knight of Dane wrote...

syllogi wrote...

We don't know how long Audacity had been influencing Marethari's actions, I had the impression that it had been using her fears for Merrill's safety to get to her, and it was her (the more experienced, powerful mage) it wanted all along.

It's a Pride demon. Marethari couldn't resist it because she was too proud, that's its concept.

Go to its lair in Act 1. There is a magical barrier.
Go its lair in Act 2, the barrier is gone and there is a cart in its place.
It's obvious someone was seeing the damned thing for a long time, and whom of Merrill and Marethari lived within its range of influence on Sundermount?

I don't think you need to be Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots, at least I think it's obvious that the Demon was influencing Marethari, the stronger and more experienced mage of the two, for quite some time.

Right, we're agreeing here, but I don't get how you can then go and blame her for Merrill's actions.  If Merrill had listened to her in the first place, neither of them (or the rest of the clan) would have been put in danger. 

If Merrill had put aside her obsession with the mirror, Marethari and Pol definitely would have lived, the rest of the clan would not have even possibly been wiped out, and Merrill eventually would have become Keeper, which is a much safer way to benefit her people.

Although I don't like the way the rivalry path with Merrill was handled at all, I wish there had been an option to advise Merrill to abandon the mirror *and* go back to her clan.  Of course, it may have already been too late for Marethari when we met her, but it's possible that even a few years into the game, she still could have prevented everything that happened.

[Knight of Dane]

iakus wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Merrill represents stagnation. It's one thing to want to learn about your history. It's another entirely to be fixated to the exclusion of all else, rather trying to move your people forward. Seven-plus years she spends on that stupid mirror - seven years that could have been spent more producitvely - and what does she have to show for it? Nothing!

Reclaiming lost knowledge and history isn't stagnation.  I actually applaud Merrill's goals in repairng the Eluvian.

What I disagree with are her methods.  They are recklessly dangerous and end up getting people killed.

The only people that die because of her method are those that attack her.

Besides the mirror and the Act 1 barrier she only ever uses her blood magic in gameplay combat.

[Knight of Dane]

syllogi wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

syllogi wrote...

We don't know how long Audacity had been influencing Marethari's actions, I had the impression that it had been using her fears for Merrill's safety to get to her, and it was her (the more experienced, powerful mage) it wanted all along.

It's a Pride demon. Marethari couldn't resist it because she was too proud, that's its concept.

Go to its lair in Act 1. There is a magical barrier.
Go its lair in Act 2, the barrier is gone and there is a cart in its place.
It's obvious someone was seeing the damned thing for a long time, and whom of Merrill and Marethari lived within its range of influence on Sundermount?

I don't think you need to be Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots, at least I think it's obvious that the Demon was influencing Marethari, the stronger and more experienced mage of the two, for quite some time.

Right, we're agreeing here, but I don't get how you can then go and blame her for Merrill's actions.  If Merrill had listened to her in the first place, neither of them (or the rest of the clan) would have been put in danger. 

If Merrill had put aside her obsession with the mirror, Marethari and Pol definitely would have lived, the rest of the clan would not have even possibly been wiped out, and Merrill eventually would have become Keeper, which is a much safer way to benefit her people.

Although I don't like the way the rivalry path with Merrill was handled at all, I wish there had been an option to advise Merrill to abandon the mirror *and* go back to her clan.  Of course, it may have already been too late for Marethari when we met her, but it's possible that even a few years into the game, she still could have prevented everything that happened.

The clan wouldn't have been in danger if she had listened to Merrill and left Sundermount like Merrill requested.

If Marethari had put aside her obsession with Merrill, she and Pol definitely would have lived, the rest of the clan would not have even possibly been wiped out, and Merrill eventually could have obtained useful knowledge for the Dalish, which is a much better way to benefit her people.

[Iakus]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

I assumed it was the black city.

Tamlen mentions a blackness and then a city.

I assumed it was a blighted, forgotten Arlathan.

If there was a Eluvian in all major Elven settlements, wouldn't that sort of be the central "hub"?

Arlethon was sunk into the ground.  It's totally gone, unless it found its way into the Deep Roads

[Knight of Dane]

iakus wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

I assumed it was the black city.

Tamlen mentions a blackness and then a city.

I assumed it was a blighted, forgotten Arlathan.

If there was a Eluvian in all major Elven settlements, wouldn't that sort of be the central "hub"?

Arlethon was sunk into the ground.  It's totally gone, unless it found its way into the Deep Roads

Yes, as far as we know.

Bring da evidence.

Arlathan being sunk does not mean its gone. The Deep Roads are sunk too.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 18 septembre 2013 - 04:22 .

[General TSAR]

Hell....no.....

[Sifr]

iakus wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

I assumed it was the black city.

Tamlen mentions a blackness and then a city.

I assumed it was a blighted, forgotten Arlathan.

If there was a Eluvian in all major Elven settlements, wouldn't that sort of be the central "hub"?

Arlethon was sunk into the ground.  It's totally gone, unless it found its way into the Deep Roads

They think that it was sunk.

The Fall of Arlathan Part Two codex entry states near the beginning that they "do not know" the fate of Arlathan and that after being invaded by the Magisters of the Imperium, "it's said" that they destroyed the city by sinking it into the ground.

They're actually as much in the dark about it as we are.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 18 septembre 2013 - 04:53 .

[Eterna]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Merrill is the emotionally abusive one my friends.

If you do a friendship relationship with her than yes.

"I NEED TO FIX THIS MIRRIOR USING BLOOD MAGIC"

"Oh, okay Merrill dearest.. I'll do anything you ask, just please don't hate me.."

"THANKS HAWKE, UR A GOOD FRIEND"

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

Lobsel, Hawke didn't seek riches in the DR because he wanted to be filthy rich (unless that's your intention): he needed riches to gain the power to protect his ass from the templars, or to protect Bethany.
I understand that you get pissed when people slander Merrill, but there's no need to slander Hawke for his reason to to in the DR.

That wasn't my intent. The expedition in general was about gaining wealth. I notice that people have no issue with a dangerous trek into the Deep Roads for wealth, but vilify Merrill for trying to restore technology that was utilized by her ancestors before being enslaved by Tevinter. Merrill thinks it can be beneficial, and she researched the Eluvians, a point many of her defectors "conveniently" forget about.

I don't see how taking a chance on an alleged fortune deep in darkspawn territory is fine, but trying to help the People with revolutionary technology (by a Dalish elf who is a member of a culture that is premised on the idea of restoring their past, no less) is somehow monstrous.

[Iakus]

Sifr1449 wrote...

They think that it was sunk.

The Fall of Arlathan Part Two codex entry states near the beginning that they "do not know" the fate of Arlathan and that after being invaded by the Magisters of the Imperium, "it's said" that they destroyed the city by sinking it into the ground.

They're actually as much in the dark about it as we are.

Granted we have no direct evidence, but I see little reason for the Tevinters to lie about how the city was destroyed, provided it was in fact destroyed.

[LobselVith8]

Eterna5 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Merrill is the emotionally abusive one my friends.

If you do a friendship relationship with her than yes.

"I NEED TO FIX THIS MIRRIOR USING BLOOD MAGIC"

"Oh, okay Merrill dearest.. I'll do anything you ask, just please don't hate me.."

"THANKS HAWKE, UR A GOOD FRIEND" 

That makes no sense. Merrill needed blood magic to amplify a spell that was used in the Dalish Origin; she needed to cleanse the shard of the taint, and she did so prior to meeting Hawke.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...
That wasn't my intent. The expedition in general was about gaining wealth. I notice that people have no issue with a dangerous trek into the Deep Roads for wealth, but vilify Merrill for trying to restore technology that was utilized by her ancestors before being enslaved by Tevinter. Merrill thinks it can be beneficial, and she researched the Eluvians, a point many of her defectors "conveniently" forget about.
I don't see how taking a chance on an alleged fortune deep in darkspawn territory is fine, but trying to help the People with revolutionary technology (by a Dalish elf who is a member of a culture that is premised on the idea of restoring their past, no less) is somehow monstrous.

I don't think that anyone said that is monstrous to restore the Eluvians. Someone said that it's useless, or not worth the risk. Someone said that they think the method used was wrong, but that doesn't mean that they said that restoring the Eluvian is monstrous.
The expediction in general was about gaining wealth, yes. That doesn't mean that Hawke's goal is necessarily the wealth. My Hakwe's reason to partecipate to the DR was exclusively based on the desire to protect Bethany from the templars (and in minor part to kill as many darkspawn as possible for revenge). Without this reason, he wouldn't care that much about the DR expediction.
About Merrill, I don't think she's wrong in trying to restore the Eluvian and the old even technology. It's a worthy goal. What I question is the obsession in restoring it the sometimes lead her to forget about her well-being. I don't particulary like blood magic, but her use of it isn't evil, so I can accept the use.

[syllogi]

Knight of Dane wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

syllogi wrote...

We don't know how long Audacity had been influencing Marethari's actions, I had the impression that it had been using her fears for Merrill's safety to get to her, and it was her (the more experienced, powerful mage) it wanted all along.

It's a Pride demon. Marethari couldn't resist it because she was too proud, that's its concept.

Go to its lair in Act 1. There is a magical barrier.
Go its lair in Act 2, the barrier is gone and there is a cart in its place.
It's obvious someone was seeing the damned thing for a long time, and whom of Merrill and Marethari lived within its range of influence on Sundermount?

I don't think you need to be Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots, at least I think it's obvious that the Demon was influencing Marethari, the stronger and more experienced mage of the two, for quite some time.

Right, we're agreeing here, but I don't get how you can then go and blame her for Merrill's actions.  If Merrill had listened to her in the first place, neither of them (or the rest of the clan) would have been put in danger. 

If Merrill had put aside her obsession with the mirror, Marethari and Pol definitely would have lived, the rest of the clan would not have even possibly been wiped out, and Merrill eventually would have become Keeper, which is a much safer way to benefit her people.

Although I don't like the way the rivalry path with Merrill was handled at all, I wish there had been an option to advise Merrill to abandon the mirror *and* go back to her clan.  Of course, it may have already been too late for Marethari when we met her, but it's possible that even a few years into the game, she still could have prevented everything that happened.

The clan wouldn't have been in danger if she had listened to Merrill and left Sundermount like Merrill requested.

If Marethari had put aside her obsession with Merrill, she and Pol definitely would have lived, the rest of the clan would not have even possibly been wiped out, and Merrill eventually could have obtained useful knowledge for the Dalish, which is a much better way to benefit her people.

So Marethari was a bad Keeper because she didn't listen to the reckless, prideful apprentice.  If Merrill had gotten her way, the clan would have left, and not been in danger, but Merrill would have *definitely* still gone to make the deal with the demon.  And, as we know, that never, ever had a chance of working out well.  It could have caused even more deaths, if the demon was trying to use her to get to the mirror, and since the mirror was located in Kirkwall, all kinds of bad things could have happened at that point.  

There is no scenario in which Merrill gets the mirror to work.  She is *always* wrong to pursue research into the mirror.  Marethari was right, and asking Merrill to be cautious and practical was the right thing to do, both before and after we knew the outcome.

[General TSAR]

Eterna5 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Merrill is the emotionally abusive one my friends.

If you do a friendship relationship with her than yes.

"I NEED TO FIX THIS MIRRIOR USING BLOOD MAGIC"

"Oh, okay Merrill dearest.. I'll do anything you ask, just please don't hate me.."

"THANKS HAWKE, UR A GOOD FRIEND"

Yep she is a manipulative little witch, isn't she? I'm glad I put the sword of mercy through her heart. 

Modifié par General TSAR, 18 septembre 2013 - 05:43 .

[draken-heart]

IF she is in, whatever, if she is not, whatever.

[DKJaigen]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...

But the Joining Ritual, Avernus' research and the Architect using Warden's blood to bestow sentience all prove that modifying the Taint is possible. Difficult sure, but not impossible.

And I'm sure the Architect realises that after the Mother fiasco, turning more Broodmothers wouldn't be a good idea. Why would they even need to breed? Darkspawn are effectively biologically immortal, according to Word Of God? They only do because they want to replenish numbers for Blights, which could be ended?

He has no reason to lie. Granted he has no reason to tell the precise truth either, since he omitted the detail about Urthemiel, but he did seem remorseful for that and for the deaths caused at Vigil's Keep? I don't fully trust him, but I don't have any reason not to doubt his intentions are malevolent either.

But I suspect we're veering into an entirely different thread here.

Modify it sure but many of the base effects remain the same. (particularly the corruption factor). Not to mention Avernus is using bloodmagic is he not? And he's a mage? The treatment might not work for everyone (The warden drinking Avernus potion just gives them new abilities).

Not to mention all the recepients of that aren't fueled and born from the taint entirely.

that doesn't mean he won't try anothe rexperiement that will backfire spectaculary. There's only 2 more blights to go through (3 if Morrigan's child goes bonkers). It's just not worth it at all to me.

Why would they want to breed? If the taint is modified they'll clearly lose their immortality no? But disregarding that might just be a natural drive. Not needing to do something doesn't stop people from doing it.

Being remorseful for causing deaths and continuing to cause more deaths doesn't earn him favor from me. And kidnapping the Warden and experimenting on him/her (instead of you know trying to open a conversation) didn't earn him any good will with me either.

And yeah we are. I find him either incompetent or malevolent and neither justify to me letting him live and potentially make a bad problem worse. But yeah YMMV and all.

As for Merrill. I want rival Merrill to be helping CEs witht he veil tears. That would be awesome.

I watched the entire thread but i find this point of view a bit shortsighted. your dealing with a race that has the potential to wipe out all of humanity without humans able to do a damn thing about it. if they offer peace you better take it and more importantly learn what the darkspawn are. that black city is still their and could easily give birth to another new group of darkspawn.

[DKJaigen]

I wonder what those Merril haters would have said if merrils plan worked and created something beneficial for her people

[Ryzaki]

DKJaigen wrote...
I watched the entire thread but i find this point of view a bit shortsighted. your dealing with a race that has the potential to wipe out all of humanity without humans able to do a damn thing about it. if they offer peace you better take it and more importantly learn what the darkspawn are. that black city is still their and could easily give birth to another new group of darkspawn.

Yeah that's exactly the problem. Without the Architect their brainless roving bands of idiots and can be defeated by intelligence. (And have been. Constantly). The Archedemon is one of the ways they get organized and we see the devastation those cause.

With intelligence...they're far more of a problem if they decide to be hostile.

I mean really.

As for the black city...that could still happen even with intelligent darkspawn.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 septembre 2013 - 06:50 .

[Neon Rising Winter]

syllogi wrote...

So Marethari was a bad Keeper because she didn't listen to the reckless, prideful apprentice.  If Merrill had gotten her way, the clan would have left, and not been in danger, but Merrill would have *definitely* still gone to make the deal with the demon.  And, as we know, that never, ever had a chance of working out well.  It could have caused even more deaths, if the demon was trying to use her to get to the mirror, and since the mirror was located in Kirkwall, all kinds of bad things could have happened at that point.  

There is no scenario in which Merrill gets the mirror to work.  She is *always* wrong to pursue research into the mirror.  Marethari was right, and asking Merrill to be cautious and practical was the right thing to do, both before and after we knew the outcome.

Nah, Marethari's bad (at the end at least) because she engineers the problem herself. In a kind interpretation because she's desperate and out of ideas, in an uncharitable one because she's one of that pernicious beed of doomsayer who will, if necessary, engineer the disaster they are predicting. There are many possibilities in between those as well, but whatever the reasoning she is not firing on all cylinders at that point

As for whether the mirror would have been a bad idea. Well like you say, we don't know. The information we have to work with is it definitely did something bad once, a demon thinks it's a good idea, and Kirkwall is a very bad place to do... well anything. None of which is terribly reassuring, but at least two of those facts are known to the person poking the thing. The game never explains if she's doing anything more than trying to put the thing back together get the on switch working. Perhaps she's not planning to rely on demon based tech support at that stage, and instead thinking of reformatting the hard drive to remove all traces of the Eluvian 95 - Gateway to Hell OS and putting Linux on instead or something.

[Knight of Dane]

syllogi wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

syllogi wrote...

We don't know how long Audacity had been influencing Marethari's actions, I had the impression that it had been using her fears for Merrill's safety to get to her, and it was her (the more experienced, powerful mage) it wanted all along.

It's a Pride demon. Marethari couldn't resist it because she was too proud, that's its concept.

Go to its lair in Act 1. There is a magical barrier.
Go its lair in Act 2, the barrier is gone and there is a cart in its place.
It's obvious someone was seeing the damned thing for a long time, and whom of Merrill and Marethari lived within its range of influence on Sundermount?

I don't think you need to be Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots, at least I think it's obvious that the Demon was influencing Marethari, the stronger and more experienced mage of the two, for quite some time.

Right, we're agreeing here, but I don't get how you can then go and blame her for Merrill's actions.  If Merrill had listened to her in the first place, neither of them (or the rest of the clan) would have been put in danger. 

If Merrill had put aside her obsession with the mirror, Marethari and Pol definitely would have lived, the rest of the clan would not have even possibly been wiped out, and Merrill eventually would have become Keeper, which is a much safer way to benefit her people.

Although I don't like the way the rivalry path with Merrill was handled at all, I wish there had been an option to advise Merrill to abandon the mirror *and* go back to her clan.  Of course, it may have already been too late for Marethari when we met her, but it's possible that even a few years into the game, she still could have prevented everything that happened.

The clan wouldn't have been in danger if she had listened to Merrill and left Sundermount like Merrill requested.

If Marethari had put aside her obsession with Merrill, she and Pol definitely would have lived, the rest of the clan would not have even possibly been wiped out, and Merrill eventually could have obtained useful knowledge for the Dalish, which is a much better way to benefit her people.

So Marethari was a bad Keeper because she didn't listen to the reckless, prideful apprentice.  If Merrill had gotten her way, the clan would have left, and not been in danger, but Merrill would have *definitely* still gone to make the deal with the demon.  And, as we know, that never, ever had a chance of working out well.  It could have caused even more deaths, if the demon was trying to use her to get to the mirror, and since the mirror was located in Kirkwall, all kinds of bad things could have happened at that point.  

There is no scenario in which Merrill gets the mirror to work.  She is *always* wrong to pursue research into the mirror.  Marethari was right, and asking Merrill to be cautious and practical was the right thing to do, both before and after we knew the outcome.

Yes Marethari was ahorrible keeper, but not because she didn't listen to Merrill; because she insisted on staying in a spot with demon influence where they were even unwelcome by the nearby humans. They went against all normal Dalish tradition by staying. She did every wrong call which eventually leads to half her clan disagreeing with her. When you arrive at Sundermount in Act 3 Master Ilen is getting ready to leave because even he can see that Marethari is on a road made of idiot.

[Knight of Dane]

DKJaigen wrote...

I wonder what those Merril haters would have said if merrils plan worked and created something beneficial for her people

"It could have gone wrong!"