575 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's what I dislike about "Night Terrors" - all the companions (save Anders), no matter what type of relationship they have with Hawke, will betray him in seconds after being given an offer by a demon. It didn't make any sense to me. Why would Hawke's companions betray him simply because a demon made them an offer? Am I supposed to take demons more seriously as a threat after seeing Hawke's companions accept a ludicrious offer that couldn't possibly come true? Or am I supposed to think that Hawke's companions must really, really hate him to try to murder him after speaking with a demon for a few seconds?

I suppose it's the "demons can't be resisted!" tangent except it just looks bad when you compare it to DAO and just makes the companions look like they're just waiting for a convienent excuse to stab you in the back. Which is true in some cases but yeah...

That and it makes mages look even more ridculous. If demons can completely mind control why are either A. More mages resistent to it (Since one is forced into the fade for their harrowing and with MC how can you resist other than overcoming it?) or B. More mages crazy (oh wait...we got B in DA2. NVM then).

But seriously I don't get it either.

The MC arguement just makes me sigh especially since why didn't the demons just use MC and have Hawke kill him/herself. If Tarohne can attempt it (and almost succeed depending on Hawke's class) one would think a desire/pride demon would have much better odds. If you didn't bring Anders with you into the fade you get a critical mission failure  that would do a better job of showing the threat of demons. Instead they turn a companion against you and start fighting leaving the rest of the companions free to help.

As it is I'm just getting everyone being easily MC'd (save Hawke who can throw it off). I understand protagonist specialness but Hawke's not even that special so it just looks eh.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 septembre 2013 - 12:20 .

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because the point of the illusion was precisely that, to make people not want to leave.

Fair enough. Sten at least though was fully aware he was being decieved. The others honestly though they were getting what the demon promised them. (Well until Hawke slapped them down.)

Sloth is lower on the totem pole than desire and pride, and they might not be able to create feelings of aggression, only... well, sloth.

Fair enough.

Because it's in a Fade realm. Which is precisely where she's not going to deal with any demons.

And still proves she lacks the will and resolve to deal with a demon toe to toe. She's dealing with a pride demon. She's shown herself unable to resist another pride demon (with an obviously shifty offer that she sees him offer to someone else five seconds before). She can know (if you have a conversation with Tropor) that said demon is only there so he can get Faynriel (who most likely is more powerful mage than her). That's not inspiring confidence.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 septembre 2013 - 12:23 .

[Xilizhra]

Fair enough. Sten at least though was fully aware he was being decieved. The others honestly though they were getting what the demon promised them. (Well until Hawke slapped them down.)

Sten was getting what the demon promised him, which was a peaceful illusion.

And still proves she lacks the will and resolve to deal with a demon toe to toe. She's dealing with a pride demon. She's shown herself unable to resist another pride demon (with an obviously shifty offer that she sees him offer to someone else five seconds before). She can know (if you have a conversation with Tropor) that said demon is only there so he can get Faynriel (who most likely is more powerful mage than her). That's not inspiring confidence.

Audacity can't control her while it's imprisoned and outside the Fade; the two situations aren't comparable.

[Ryzaki]

A peaceful illusion with his compatriots OOC and him knowing fully well he needed to leave?

As for Audacity I'd say it's possible for him to eventually be freed. After all he convinced Marethari to free him. So clearly he has SOME power of suggestion outside. And if you don't tell Merrill to finish it she falls for Aud's BS and gets herself injured. So yeah Merrill is prone to falling for demon trickery. Which would be fine if she wasn't so insistent on not being such.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 septembre 2013 - 12:39 .

[Nightdragon8]

honestly we cant say what she was going to do with the demon the fact that she wanted Hawke around "Just in case" tells me that, she was going to release it partly. In which case she would have been possed and then you would have been forced to kill her.

But all her plans went out the window because The keeper released the demon herself, to protect Merrill.

So saying "she wasn't going to do anything dangerous" is a bunch of bull.

[LobselVith8]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

honestly we cant say what she was going to do with the demon the fact that she wanted Hawke around "Just in case" tells me that, she was going to release it partly.

Since Merrill explicitly states that there's only silence when she tried to commune with Audacity in Act III, and she indicates that Audacity may no longer be in the totem because it doesn't seem to be responding when she tried to communicate with it, then it's not a conclusion I'd jump to.

Nightdragon8 wrote...

In which case she would have been possed and then you would have been forced to kill her.

Merrill tells an aggressive Hawke that she has no intention of letting Audacity free. Even Marethari doesn't claim that Merrill will set Audacity free.

Nightdragon8 wrote...

But all her plans went out the window because The keeper released the demon herself, to protect Merrill.

So saying "she wasn't going to do anything dangerous" is a bunch of bull.

Marethari protected Merrill by becoming an abomination and trying to kill her? That's not how I look at it.

[llandwynwyn]

LobselVith8 wrote...
All the companions are railroaded by the Plot into betraying Hawke in a matter of seconds; I don't see how you can say a certain companion wouldn't betray him when the Plot Dictated that everyone (but Anders) betrayed Hawke after a few seconds of a specific demon making them an offer.

Everything happens because of plot, the character aren't real people. The reason most of them betray Hawke in that situation is that, with the exception of Avelline, his friends aren't the best of people. Yes, even Varric. That mission serves as a direct contrast to DAO's fade mission and it isn't probably a coincidence.

I highly doubt the writers would make Carver or Beth turn on Hawke, though. Beth may be meek but she's a strong mind and Carver loves Hawke, no matter what. Rival or friend, he risks his Templar "dream" job at the end of the game to side with his sibling because, to him, family comes first.

[Ryzaki]

Aveline's not that great of a person either TBH. Speaking of which I need to rival her too.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 septembre 2013 - 12:52 .

[Shadow Fox]

Face of Evil wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

Everyone else gets a pass because they've never been in the fade before in a waking state. All they know about it is what they've heard, while Merril knows too well what to expect from it, and she just jumped at the first opportunity because "lol, I have candies".

Mages are not granted some special exception from mind control. Merrill was as susceptible to the demons' magic as any of your companions.

The Mage Warden had been to the Fade before and fought with demons. That didn't make the Mage Warden magically immune to the Sloth Demon's infuence during the encounter in the Circle Tower.

Except no mind control was involved it simply offered her something she wanted.

So yes it was Merrill's stupidity.

It was very obviously mind control. Isabela even says afterwards that the demon was in my head, and Hawke can forgive her by saying "it wasn't your fault, it was MIND CONTROL."

They can can also call her a backstabbing ****.

[TEWR]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Except no mind control was involved it simply offered her something she wanted.

So yes it was Merrill's stupidity.

You're wrong

It was exactly mind control. ALL of the companions state that the Demons they fell to got inside their heads, and the lore is very clear that Demons of Desire and Pride can indeed do mind control.

But they save it for a last resort and prefer subtler manipulations, because they deem it crude. And shock of shocks, when Hawke comes in they're attempting subtle manipulations! Shock of shocks again, when Hawke intervenes, they're so pissed off that they just want a meal ticket out of the Fade that they use mind control.

But this is nothing new. Merrill detractors often overlook the facts the two games provide in an effort to label her "an idiot".

[The Hierophant]

TEWR i if that was mind control wouldn't it make Merrill a bigger liability when considering that her BM use attracts demons?

[Kaidan Fan]

I'm not getting into the was she mind controlled or not discussion. I just know she got on my last nerve and I don't wanna see her again :-P

[TEWR]

The Hierophant wrote...

TEWR i if that was mind control wouldn't it make Merrill a bigger liability when considering that her BM use attracts demons?

Not really. First off, only two types of demons can use mind control (Desire and Pride). Secondly, it requires her to be in the Fade for her to be mind controlled (or a Demon is in the mortal realm, but has a strong connection to the Fade still). Third, the two types of Demons hate resorting to it save for as a last resort, never as a go-to method.

Fourth, after her mind is controlled in the Fade, it sort of opens her eyes a bit more to how dangerous dealing with Demons is. She already knew it was dangerous to deal with any sort of spirit of the Fade -- of course, Audacity wasn't a threat so long as people left him alone, since he was trapped, weakened, and sundered from the Fade -- but now she has firsthand experience which makes her doubly cautious.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 septembre 2013 - 02:19 .

[Shadow Fox]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

TEWR i if that was mind control wouldn't it make Merrill a bigger liability when considering that her BM use attracts demons?

Not really. First off, only two types of demons can use mind control (Desire and Pride). Secondly, it requires her to be in the Fade for her to be mind controlled (or a Demon is in the mortal realm, but has a strong connection to the Fade still). Third, the two types of Demons hate resorting to it save for as a last resort, never as a go-to method.

Fourth, after her mind is controlled in the Fade, it sort of opens her eyes a bit more to how dangerous dealing with Demons is. She already knew it was dangerous to deal with any sort of spirit of the Fade -- of course, Audacity wasn't a threat so long as people left him alone, since he was trapped, weakened, and sundered from the Fade -- but now she has firsthand experience which makes her doubly cautious.

Not really considering she later tries to barter with Audacity.

[Reaverwind]

Ryzaki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's what I dislike about "Night Terrors" - all the companions (save Anders), no matter what type of relationship they have with Hawke, will betray him in seconds after being given an offer by a demon. It didn't make any sense to me. Why would Hawke's companions betray him simply because a demon made them an offer? Am I supposed to take demons more seriously as a threat after seeing Hawke's companions accept a ludicrious offer that couldn't possibly come true? Or am I supposed to think that Hawke's companions must really, really hate him to try to murder him after speaking with a demon for a few seconds?

I suppose it's the "demons can't be resisted!" tangent except it just looks bad when you compare it to DAO and just makes the companions look like they're just waiting for a convienent excuse to stab you in the back. Which is true in some cases but yeah...

That and it makes mages look even more ridculous. If demons can completely mind control why are either A. More mages resistent to it (Since one is forced into the fade for their harrowing and with MC how can you resist other than overcoming it?) or B. More mages crazy (oh wait...we got B in DA2. NVM then).

Yea, that whole quest was rubbish. I find it ironic that Merrill is given a free pass for failing to resist a pride demon, and yet, that is exactly what your mage has to do in DA:O. It certainly does seem to prove the Templars' PoV, doesn't it? Maybe that is what Bioware was shooting for, and Aveline's comments seem to confirm that.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 20 septembre 2013 - 02:31 .

[TEWR]

Also wrong. She doesn't go there to "barter" with Audacity -- which denotes a "give and take" exchange. She goes there to find out if it knows anything, telling Hawke that she has no intention of freeing him from his prison.

So if he said "I'll only tell you X if you free me", she wouldn't free him. As Audacity is cut off from the Fade, trapped, and substantially weakened, he cannot mind control anyone (but he can engage in subtle manipulation, as he proved with Marethari over the course of 7 years. And it's not something exclusive to Demons).

And if he did tell her, she could just say "Screw you!" and leave him there.

So yeah... no "bartering" was going to take place. But continue to believe that if you want.

[Shadow Fox]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Except no mind control was involved it simply offered her something she wanted.

So yes it was Merrill's stupidity.

You're wrong

It was exactly mind control. ALL of the companions state that the Demons they fell to got inside their heads, and the lore is very clear that Demons of Desire and Pride can indeed do mind control.

But they save it for a last resort and prefer subtler manipulations, because they deem it crude. And shock of shocks, when Hawke comes in they're attempting subtle manipulations! Shock of shocks again, when Hawke intervenes, they're so pissed off that they just want a meal ticket out of the Fade that they use mind control.

But this is nothing new. Merrill detractors often overlook the facts the two games provide in an effort to label her "an idiot".

Except unlike Origins we don't see a demon messing with our companions' heads we see them making them an offer and them taking it without a second thought.

[Shadow Fox]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Also wrong. She doesn't go there to "barter" with Audacity -- which denotes a "give and take" exchange. She goes there to find out if it knows anything, telling Hawke that she has no intention of freeing him from his prison.

So if he said "I'll only tell you X if you free me", she wouldn't free him. As Audacity is cut off from the Fade, trapped, and substantially weakened, he cannot mind control anyone (but he can engage in subtle manipulation, as he proved with Marethari over the course of 7 years. And it's not something exclusive to Demons).

And if he did tell her, she could just say "Screw you!" and leave him there.

So yeah... no "bartering" was going to take place. But continue to believe that if you want.

Wrong that's why she asked Hawke to go with her to kill her if she got possessed ergo she was going to free him.

[Dave of Canada]

If Merill is still naive after Act 3, well...

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 septembre 2013 - 02:40 .

[CVigilantia]

Dave of Canada wrote...

If Merill is still naive after Act 3, well...

I doubt it. There's been too much that's happened for her to be like that. If anything, Bioware will probably go for the quiet hesitent PTSD survivor.

[Ryzaki]

Maybe the calm, interested in her people's past but not enough to risk the safety of her clan or herself.

Like she was in the DE origin of DAO. That'd be nice.

[dragonflight288]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Also wrong. She doesn't go there to "barter" with Audacity -- which denotes a "give and take" exchange. She goes there to find out if it knows anything, telling Hawke that she has no intention of freeing him from his prison.

So if he said "I'll only tell you X if you free me", she wouldn't free him. As Audacity is cut off from the Fade, trapped, and substantially weakened, he cannot mind control anyone (but he can engage in subtle manipulation, as he proved with Marethari over the course of 7 years. And it's not something exclusive to Demons).

And if he did tell her, she could just say "Screw you!" and leave him there.

So yeah... no "bartering" was going to take place. But continue to believe that if you want.

Wrong that's why she asked Hawke to go with her to kill her if she got possessed ergo she was going to free him.

You're wrong. Play aggressive Hawke. She specifically says she won't free him. What she asks Hawk to do, and I'm playing this part right now, so it's pretty fresh for me, she's asking Hawke to accompany her, and if the worst happens, to kill her. She isn't bringing him because she intends to barter. She isn't bringing him because she intends to free the demon. She's bringing Hawke as a failsafe.

Ergo, she's being cautious.