575 réponses à ce sujet

[Boiny Bunny]

Xilizhra wrote...

Truth be told, it's hard to tell whether it was Merrill that frustrated me, or DA2's lack of a way to steer her away from her idiocy sooner. As soon as we got Marethari (and potentially her entire clan) killed, I really wanted the option to push Merill off the side of the mountain - or make her tranquil. Unfortunately, no such options were given. Likewise with Anders, the game gave you no chances to pull him off his path - which I found frustrating. Whilst I'm grateful that Bioware gave the option to kill him after what he did, I would have liked an option to make him tranquil as well - as the 'ultimate' punishment.

What a pity. It seems our desires will probably be incompatible come DAI, and what I'll want will almost certainly not be what you do.

Well, that's the beauty of games that allow player choice!

Maybe I would have liked Merrill more if I'd tried out a hostile relationship with her - as it was, I could only bring myself to play through DA2 one and a half times (mainly owing to the gameplay/combat).

I'm starting a new DA:O playthrough at the moment which will continue into a DA2 playthrough, perhaps I'll give it a go.

[SirGladiator]

I don't think Merill was the naive one, I think her fellow Dalish were. Granted if you never played DAO then it seems that what she's doing is insane, but if you did you know fixing that mirror isn't crazy, it's brilliant. Morrigan used one of those mirrors, they're legitimate tools, not forces of evil. Merill was right to want to fix it, and we also know that her use of blood magic isn't bad like it was portrayed in DA2 also, Jowan for example used it, and always tried to use it for good (not to mention that your character could use it for good also), so no, I don't see her as naive. As for her having a role in DAI, I think if she had one it should be in regard to an Elf situation, that was always her main concern, helping her fellow elves. If Hawke romanced her that should be mentioned, and it should be clear that they end up together forever after whatever happens in DAI.

[Xilizhra]

It isn't about being 'templar-centric' as much as it's about a Dalish elf taking on a group that has hunted the Dalish for centuries. The two groups are enemies, and have been since the war that lead to Orlesian occupation over the second nation of the elves. Elven lore says the war with Orlais and the Andrastian Chantry started with templars invading the elven kingdom as a response to the elves of the Dales refusing to convert. I think that could have ramifications, especially if any of the People (or the elves living in the occupied kingdom of the Dales) are considering rebelling against Orlesian rule.

True enough. I suppose we have to wait and see.

Well, that's the beauty of games that allow player choice!

I mean that we probably won't want the same choices included.

[Reaverwind]

SirGladiator wrote...

I don't think Merill was the naive one, I think her fellow Dalish were. Granted if you never played DAO then it seems that what she's doing is insane, but if you did you know fixing that mirror isn't crazy, it's brilliant. Morrigan used one of those mirrors, they're legitimate tools, not forces of evil. Merill was right to want to fix it, and we also know that her use of blood magic isn't bad like it was portrayed in DA2 also, Jowan for example used it, and always tried to use it for good (not to mention that your character could use it for good also), so no, I don't see her as naive. As for her having a role in DAI, I think if she had one it should be in regard to an Elf situation, that was always her main concern, helping her fellow elves. If Hawke romanced her that should be mentioned, and it should be clear that they end up together forever after whatever happens in DAI.

Her clansmen were just as right in not wanting anything to do with it. Morrigan may have used an eluvian, but she clearly was more knowledgeable about where the thing led, not to mention didn't risk anyone but herself. I didn't appreaciate Merrill's transferring the risk from her clan to the elvenage.

[Boiny Bunny]

Xilizhra wrote...

It isn't about being 'templar-centric' as much as it's about a Dalish elf taking on a group that has hunted the Dalish for centuries. The two groups are enemies, and have been since the war that lead to Orlesian occupation over the second nation of the elves. Elven lore says the war with Orlais and the Andrastian Chantry started with templars invading the elven kingdom as a response to the elves of the Dales refusing to convert. I think that could have ramifications, especially if any of the People (or the elves living in the occupied kingdom of the Dales) are considering rebelling against Orlesian rule.

True enough. I suppose we have to wait and see.

Well, that's the beauty of games that allow player choice!

I mean that we probably won't want the same choices included.

Perhaps.  I don't think either of us would complain if Bioware gave more options though - especially in the direction of allowing you a little more control over crazy world changing actions your companions may perform with or without your blessing.

I do feel that they should allow some kind of resolution for characters that you don't agree with however, whether it be parting company, or engaging in some kind of combat.  Bioware's older games were a lot more flexible in that regard - many companions in BG for example would leave you or even attack if you if they completely disagreed with your actions/choices - and you could do the same to them.  Even KOTOR allowed a dark side Revan to essentially kill most of the light side characters in their party (save Carth, who runs off, and Bastila, who converts to the dark side anyway).

[Xilizhra]

Perhaps. I don't think either of us would complain if Bioware gave more options though - especially in the direction of allowing you a little more control over crazy world changing actions your companions may perform with or without your blessing.

I don't know. I liked the plots with the Eluvian and Anders, and Anders' action couldn't have been nearly as big and impressive if you could have stopped it.

[Plaintiff]

 Not even slightly.

[Boiny Bunny]

Xilizhra wrote...

Perhaps. I don't think either of us would complain if Bioware gave more options though - especially in the direction of allowing you a little more control over crazy world changing actions your companions may perform with or without your blessing.

I don't know. I liked the plots with the Eluvian and Anders, and Anders' action couldn't have been nearly as big and impressive if you could have stopped it.

That's a problem in of itself though.  You happened you like the plot with the Eluvian - a lot of players didn't - but the game forced that on your regardless.  A better game would allow you more flexibility in guiding Merrill - some players could guide her towards finishing the Eluvian, others away from it.

I agree about Anders actions - which is why I think they should have essentially had a non-party member fill in for him in terms of the more extreme stuff (like blowing up the Chantry).  It's frustrating to have to deal with a character who will only see the world in black and white, be unable to convince them otherwise, AND be unable to have any influence over their actions as a result.  If it were a non-party member, it would feel more like a fixed element of the plot that you shouldn't have any control over, rather than a missed opportunity with Anders.

Basically, I feel that the PC should be able to have a degree of influence over all of the party members.  They should all grow over the course of the game, and that growth should be, to a degree, tied to the PC's decisions.  Part of the issue with some of the characters in DA2 was that they had big plot events tied to them, which had to happen regardless of which way Hawke swung - removing a bit of player agency in the process.

Taking Morrigan or Alistair from DA:O as other examples, had relatively large plot events tied into them, but the player could still exercise a great deal of control over where those plot elements went, which generally results in a more satisfying experience for everybody.

If DA:O was written the way DA2 was, Morrigan would rape a male Warden to get pregnant if he refused, and Alistair would behead Loghain automatically after the Landsmeet without any PC input, then declare that he was going to marry Anora.

[Zu Long]

I was a big fan of Merrill, and would love to see her again.

[Xilizhra]

That's a problem in of itself though. You happened you like the plot with the Eluvian - a lot of players didn't - but the game forced that on your regardless. A better game would allow you more flexibility in guiding Merrill - some players could guide her towards finishing the Eluvian, others away from it.

Personally, I think the rivalry path with Merrill was horrible and shouldn't have allowed for romance, so I doubt we'll come to an accord.

I agree about Anders actions - which is why I think they should have essentially had a non-party member fill in for him in terms of the more extreme stuff (like blowing up the Chantry). It's frustrating to have to deal with a character who will only see the world in black and white, be unable to convince them otherwise, AND be unable to have any influence over their actions as a result. If it were a non-party member, it would feel more like a fixed element of the plot that you shouldn't have any control over, rather than a missed opportunity with Anders.

Again, I don't agree. I think Anders worked best in his role here, as you were the closest to him and were able to see his arc... and quite frankly, I think being unable to change this was part of the point: here and now, there is no compromise. Without an end, there can be no peace.

If DA:O was written the way DA2 was, Morrigan would rape a male Warden to get pregnant if he refused, and Alistair would behead Loghain automatically after the Landsmeet without any PC input, then declare that he was going to marry Anora.

Alistair does just that if he duels Loghain, actually (though doesn't marry Anora in that case). And I do wish that the OGB could have happened regardless; it's too good a plot element to throw away.

[Boiny Bunny]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's a problem in of itself though. You happened you like the plot with the Eluvian - a lot of players didn't - but the game forced that on your regardless. A better game would allow you more flexibility in guiding Merrill - some players could guide her towards finishing the Eluvian, others away from it.

Personally, I think the rivalry path with Merrill was horrible and shouldn't have allowed for romance, so I doubt we'll come to an accord.

But I'm not trying to bring you to an accord between our personal tastes for whether or not that particular quest was well written.  I'm just saying that it very strictly guided you down a path that you had very little control over, and ended controversially (i.e. in a way that at least a non-insignificant number of players would not have been happy with).  That in of itself isn't a good thing, regardless of whether either of us personally liked the outcome.

I agree about Anders actions - which is why I think they should have essentially had a non-party member fill in for him in terms of the more extreme stuff (like blowing up the Chantry). It's frustrating to have to deal with a character who will only see the world in black and white, be unable to convince them otherwise, AND be unable to have any influence over their actions as a result. If it were a non-party member, it would feel more like a fixed element of the plot that you shouldn't have any control over, rather than a missed opportunity with Anders.

Again, I don't agree. I think Anders worked best in his role here, as you were the closest to him and were able to see his arc... and quite frankly, I think being unable to change this was part of the point: here and now, there is no compromise. Without an end, there can be no peace.

Yeah, it's more grey than black and white.  I agree that having him as a party member and play such a large part in the plot did have some benefits - particularly witnessing the journey he took in such a close manner, but in the end, I think it took more away than it added by removing the player agency.  I would have been happier if there was a major NPC character who you similarly got to know through the game via quests etc. who took Anders place when it came to blowing up the Chantry - then you could convince Anders over the course of the game to either support such an action, or reluctantly decide that the Templars were right in this case.

If DA:O was written the way DA2 was, Morrigan would rape a male Warden to get pregnant if he refused, and Alistair would behead Loghain automatically after the Landsmeet without any PC input, then declare that he was going to marry Anora.

Alistair does just that if he duels Loghain, actually (though doesn't marry Anora in that case). And I do wish that the OGB could have happened regardless; it's too good a plot element to throw away.

They're just examples of how player choices could have been removed or toned down.  DA:O gave you a good deal of options in how to deal with Loghain, Alistair, Anora, and the future of the monarchy.  Those choices depended partly on the background of the PC, partly on how you had influenced Alistair over the course of the game, and partly on the PC's in-the-moment decisions.  Just automatically making Alistair fight Loghain for you (with no other choice) and behead him, then automatically decide to marry Anora, would have greatly reduced the enjoyment a lot of players got out of that scenario.

[Kidd]

I'd love to meet her for a bit at an Arlathven. There could be a point where the dalish discuss the eluvians, and if you import a living Merrill then she is the one who teaches the clans about the mirrors. If she's not around, then either Witch Hunt companion.

She's one of my favourite characters, so I'd love to meet her again as long as it made sense =)

[The Qun & the Damned]

Well, I am curious to see where the whole bit with the Eluvian (if she didn't smash it) goes, especially since the fade has torn and magic is a lot more haywire than before.

[LobselVith8]

SirGladiator wrote...

I don't think Merill was the naive one, I think her fellow Dalish were. Granted if you never played DAO then it seems that what she's doing is insane, but if you did you know fixing that mirror isn't crazy, it's brilliant. Morrigan used one of those mirrors, they're legitimate tools, not forces of evil. Merill was right to want to fix it, and we also know that her use of blood magic isn't bad like it was portrayed in DA2 also, Jowan for example used it, and always tried to use it for good (not to mention that your character could use it for good also), so no, I don't see her as naive. As for her having a role in DAI, I think if she had one it should be in regard to an Elf situation, that was always her main concern, helping her fellow elves. If Hawke romanced her that should be mentioned, and it should be clear that they end up together forever after whatever happens in DAI.

I don't think Merrill was naive, either. The Sabrae clan were poisoned against Merrill by Marethari, and the Keeper ended up endangering everyone with her reckless actions. In fact, Morrigan seems to be the only character more informed than Merrill about the Eluvians, and she still needed the aid of a Dalish tome in her efforts. Merrill did her own research, of course.

[Flurdt Vash]

I loved Merrill  ..... seriously I got 3 Champions that she left with lol

Modifié par Flurdt07, 18 septembre 2013 - 02:02 .

[Xilizhra]

But I'm not trying to bring you to an accord between our personal tastes for whether or not that particular quest was well written. I'm just saying that it very strictly guided you down a path that you had very little control over, and ended controversially (i.e. in a way that at least a non-insignificant number of players would not have been happy with). That in of itself isn't a good thing, regardless of whether either of us personally liked the outcome.

I'd be fine with this... provided we had an option to successfully fix the Eluvian.

Yeah, it's more grey than black and white. I agree that having him as a party member and play such a large part in the plot did have some benefits - particularly witnessing the journey he took in such a close manner, but in the end, I think it took more away than it added by removing the player agency. I would have been happier if there was a major NPC character who you similarly got to know through the game via quests etc. who took Anders place when it came to blowing up the Chantry - then you could convince Anders over the course of the game to either support such an action, or reluctantly decide that the Templars were right in this case.

I don't think player agency could have been logically applied, and I believe firmly that Anders should never have sided with templarHawke under any circumstances.

They're just examples of how player choices could have been removed or toned down. DA:O gave you a good deal of options in how to deal with Loghain, Alistair, Anora, and the future of the monarchy. Those choices depended partly on the background of the PC, partly on how you had influenced Alistair over the course of the game, and partly on the PC's in-the-moment decisions. Just automatically making Alistair fight Loghain for you (with no other choice) and behead him, then automatically decide to marry Anora, would have greatly reduced the enjoyment a lot of players got out of that scenario.

And the in-game effects of this have been... practically nil. Anders could get away with something far bigger because of it being fixed.

[snackrat]

I don't mind naivety. And I would expect some culture shock. But they didn't give her either of those things. That just made her an idiot.

Someone getting violently mugged outside her door? Oh! It must be a greeting! Why hasn't anyone greeted me? They must not like me enough.
wat

A lot of the things she is ignorant of don't make sense to be. You see more of the Dalish in DAO - if you start as Dalish you even know the same clan - Merrill doesn't seem all rediculously coddled.
She doesn't seem shy and awkward with people in the first, and in the second she just looks like a nervous wreck.

I don't hate Merrill, really I don't. But I would prefer she ACTUALLY be naive or she ACTUALLY have culture shock rather than faking it by ruining any sense of critical thinking or social analysis.

[Zkyire]

Necanor wrote...

No. Merril was incredibly obnoxious.

This, she was my first choice as a LI because of the Welsh VA. But on my second playthrough I realised that I was going out of my way to make Hawke do things I wouldn't have otherwise done in order to stay on her good side.

She was a petulant, self-centred (no matter how much she claimed otherwise) child.

[Eterna]

Merrill was my favourite character in DA2.

So many salty people here.

[Zkyire]

Eterna5 wrote...

Merrill was my favourite character in DA2.

So many salty people here.

She was a good character in that she made you feel *something*, good or bad.

Only a bad character if you felt nothing one way or another.

[Reaver102]

Karsciyin wrote...

I don't mind naivety. And I would expect some culture shock. But they didn't give her either of those things. That just made her an idiot.

Someone getting violently mugged outside her door? Oh! It must be a greeting! Why hasn't anyone greeted me? They must not like me enough.
wat

A lot of the things she is ignorant of don't make sense to be. You see more of the Dalish in DAO - if you start as Dalish you even know the same clan - Merrill doesn't seem all rediculously coddled.
She doesn't seem shy and awkward with people in the first, and in the second she just looks like a nervous wreck.

I don't hate Merrill, really I don't. But I would prefer she ACTUALLY be naive or she ACTUALLY have culture shock rather than faking it by ruining any sense of critical thinking or social analysis.

Yeah that was Merrill using humor not her being serious, which people seem to mix up a lot.  Hell maybe I'm wrong and she is that stupid, but it seems more like a dry humor to me than stupidity.  

[Angrywolves]

Of course I hated Anders and the changing that was done to him to shoe horn him into DA2 from Awakening.
I disagree with the poster who said what Anders did was right. Anders was a fool, he committed an act of terrorism .
I guess it reminds me of the assassination that started WW1.
Maybe Gaider had that in mind when he wrote DA2.
Of course poor Merrill got changed from DAO and shoe horned as well.
The Eluvian was tainted by the darkspawn. Merrill's efforts to cleanse it that could lead to the death of her entire tribe, wasn't worth it.

[Eterna]

Merrill Rivalry is far better than friendship. You actually make her see how dumb she was being.

[Xilizhra]

Merrill Rivalry is far better than friendship. You actually make her see how dumb she was being.

Remind me to kill your Hawke later.

[Vit246]

I have simply no interest in seeing Merrill again. Make new characters.

Also, I can objectively say that Merrill did literally nothing to cause the death of her mentor and tribe. From what's left I can remember.

Modifié par Vit246, 18 septembre 2013 - 03:13 .