721 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I would certainly support that.  The cutscenes should obey combat mechanics.

But then, I flatly reject the very idea of gameplay/story segregation.

;)Amen brother!

Agreed. Too much of it creates a dissonance between the story and gameplay, especially when the latter is supposed to be an aspect of the former. In short it makes the combat seem separate from the story and lore.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 21 septembre 2013 - 07:11 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DarthSideus2 wrote...
If I remember correctly, Aragon held off all 9 Ring Wraiths in a fight to save Frodo in the first movie. That was a little hard to swallow.

IIRC, there were 7 of them there.
And he isn't a normal human to begin with.
And he set them on fire and didn't use any super-moves.
Not exactly the best scene, but still....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bleachrude wrote...

AGAIN, people keep using examples of settings where 99% of the fights occur between human level opponents.

DA is a setting where the very beginning of the game has you fighting GIANT rats and quickly moves up to GIANT spider bigger than humans....

The insistence on "wearriors and rogues should only perform manoeuvers that I personally could do" is what leads to quadratic wizards and linear fighters

So what?
Giant rats? How's that differnet than fighting wolves?
Giant spiders? Meh. They go down as easily as any other creater in that size-range.

Quadratic wizzards and linear fighters? Yes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

d4eaming wrote...

And Gandalf fighting the balrog literally while falling. But I guess that's "a wizard thing."

Gandalf isn't human (he's an angel). And neither isth e Balrog.

Also, there were loads of unrealistic melee and ranged fighting in the movies. Didn't Legolas run up a frigging giant elephant? And surf on a shield?

Hell yeah, I wanna shield surf in DAI, make it happen Bioware!

There was both laughing and rage at those scenes. Never liked them.

But it is the nature of forums for people to nitpick incessantly and complelety miss the aspect/point of comparison.

Last I recall I was comparing ARAGORNS swordfighting with DA2/I. did I mention Legolas? Nope. He is irrelevant to my point. I dont' care if he was in the same movie. I'm comparing a specific movie aspect, not every single scene from a movie.

[Uccio]

Vilegrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ukki wrote...
DA2 had pole dancer mages

Okay, people need to stop making this terrible, awful analogy.

Have the people who say this ever seen pole dancing? It is literally the absolute opposite of what the mages in DA2 do.

yea, they where Majorettes which is soooo much better....

It beats poking at the air like it's a dead animal.

neither worked particularly well in all honesty.

Main point would be that mages are supposed to work magic with willpower. Willpower require concetration, not dancing around like one would be working in circus.

[In Exile]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DarthSideus2 wrote...
If I remember correctly, Aragon held off all 9 Ring Wraiths in a fight to save Frodo in the first movie. That was a little hard to swallow.

IIRC, there were 7 of them there.
And he isn't a normal human to begin with.
And he set them on fire and didn't use any super-moves.
Not exactly the best scene, but still....

So what you're saying is that for a human to do mundane things like fight 7 opponents at once and live, they have to be a supernatural being with abilities far above the average human? Because that's what we're saying about what every NPC in DA:O had to be like to do any of the ingame feats we see. 

[Uccio]

The Woldan wrote...

d4eaming wrote...

People think a broadsword or a bastard sword weighed 40 pounds? What is wrong with people?

Just look at the weapons in the Dragon Age universe, those arm-thick blades and huge mauls would weigh [/i][i]100 pounds unless they're were made of fiberglass or other lightweight materials.

Most of them had handle so thick that trying to wrap your fingers around then would be futile. And hitting something with one would cause one to drop it.

[Vilegrim]

In Exile wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DarthSideus2 wrote...
If I remember correctly, Aragon held off all 9 Ring Wraiths in a fight to save Frodo in the first movie. That was a little hard to swallow.

IIRC, there were 7 of them there.
And he isn't a normal human to begin with.
And he set them on fire and didn't use any super-moves.
Not exactly the best scene, but still....

So what you're saying is that for a human to do mundane things like fight 7 opponents at once and live, they have to be a supernatural being with abilities far above the average human? Because that's what we're saying about what every NPC in DA:O had to be like to do any of the ingame feats we see. 

The Wring Wraiths are far beyond being 'opponents' they are immortal killing machines empowered by a dark god, slightly different things. (In the book btw he had the shards of narsil, well about 2 ft of the blade for this purpose, and it terrified the Wratihs who remebered it well)

[In Exile]

Vilegrim wrote...
The Wring Wraiths are far beyond being 'opponents' they are immortal killing machines empowered by a dark god, slightly different things. (In the book btw he had the shards of narsil, well about 2 ft of the blade for this purpose, and it terrified the Wratihs who remebered it well)

And these immortal killing machines are so terrifying that... Aragon beat 7 of them with a broken sword. Yes, Narsil is apparently magic. So magical that immortal killing machines run away from it in fear. Really pilling on that realism. 

[The Hierophant]

In Exile wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...
The Wring Wraiths are far beyond being 'opponents' they are immortal killing machines empowered by a dark god, slightly different things. (In the book btw he had the shards of narsil, well about 2 ft of the blade for this purpose, and it terrified the Wratihs who remebered it well)

And these immortal killing machines are so terrifying that... Aragon beat 7 of them with a broken sword. Yes, Narsil is apparently magic. So magical that immortal killing machines run away from it in fear. Really pilling on that realism. 

It's a realistic outcome for the LoTR verse when considering it's lore so i fail to see the issue with it. (realistic=consistent)

[Vilegrim]

In Exile wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...
The Wring Wraiths are far beyond being 'opponents' they are immortal killing machines empowered by a dark god, slightly different things. (In the book btw he had the shards of narsil, well about 2 ft of the blade for this purpose, and it terrified the Wratihs who remebered it well)

And these immortal killing machines are so terrifying that... Aragon beat 7 of them with a broken sword. Yes, Narsil is apparently magic. So magical that immortal killing machines run away from it in fear. Really pilling on that realism. 

YES IT WAS MAGICAL, what exactly is your point?  He didn't make the ground explode while angels shot laser beams and a full disco went off as elven pole dancer scrolled across the screen, as apparently you want, it was a magic sword, it cut well and could kill things mortal weapons couldn't in the hands of Isildurs heir, that's pretty much as far as it went.  Acceptable breaks from reality.  Look it up.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 21 septembre 2013 - 08:50 .

[Vicious]

Acceptable breaks from reality.

DA:Awakenings and DA2 removed any semblance of this. Characters are superheroes.

[draken-heart]

Stylistic that is believable. I had to suspend my disbelief when the Dual wield rogue attacked like a warrior unless from behind in Origins. 2 was slightly because the rogue actually looked like a rogue in battle (unorthodox combat style, what a rogue should be). the same animations for weapons are fine for MMO, but DA is not an MMO so the animations better be somewhat cool, yet believable.

[In Exile]

Vilegrim wrote...
YES IT WAS MAGICAL, what exactly is your point?  He didn't make the ground explode while angels shot laser beams and a full disco went off as elven pole dancer scrolled across the screen, as apparently you want, it was a magic sword, it cut well and could kill things mortal weapons couldn't in the hands of Isildurs heir, that's pretty much as far as it went.  Acceptable breaks from reality.  Look it up.

So it's realistic for these immortal killing machines to... ****** themselves in fear at the sight of a magic sword? 

These immortal killing machines, threatening warriors... being afraid of a thing that can kill them? The thing that every single soldier faces in every single fight? That's what they ran away from? And you're telling me this is realistic?

[Vilegrim]

In Exile wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...
YES IT WAS MAGICAL, what exactly is your point?  He didn't make the ground explode while angels shot laser beams and a full disco went off as elven pole dancer scrolled across the screen, as apparently you want, it was a magic sword, it cut well and could kill things mortal weapons couldn't in the hands of Isildurs heir, that's pretty much as far as it went.  Acceptable breaks from reality.  Look it up.

So it's realistic for these immortal killing machines to... ****** themselves in fear at the sight of a magic sword? 

These immortal killing machines, threatening warriors... being afraid of a thing that can kill them? The thing that every single soldier faces in every single fight? That's what they ran away from? And you're telling me this is realistic?

what is the point of this straw man you are attacking? Honest question? Yes the wraiths ran, cowards do, yes the sword was magic, it is a fantasy setting, what it wasn't was a disco generating razor edged ironing board/mining tool as you want all swords to be.

Notice I am not arguing for magic to be taken out, for elves to cease to be a thing, for dragons to vanish.  I am asking for the combat animations for people using weapons to actually LOOK like people using weapons.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 21 septembre 2013 - 09:08 .

[KristinCousland]

ismoketoomuch wrote...

A discussion about medieval sword weights and how and why these weapons have been misrepresented in recent history and in the entertainment industry:
http://www.thearma.o...ays/weights.htm

A example of a chinese staff fighting kata (set pattern of moves used to demonstrate competence in techniques). That ready position, sort of a quarter turn with staff at side should be familiar to anyone who played DAII. I also would like to highlight the dynamic tempo (fast, slow, super fast, pause etc.) which you see thruout the kata, which is typical of higher level kata and is meant to be realistic.


Its probably too late, but I hope Bioware develops their fighting animations for DAInq based on motion capture techniques using trained martial artists, including medieval weapons users. If they have to slow things down to look 'realistic', so be it.

Do not be too smart. This has been covered. Most well educated members of bsn know what a claymore looks like, and they also know what an oversized two hander looks like. Please do not think the two are the same.

Besides Bioware is getting the two handed combat right for once.  The alpha combat looks awesome.

[The Hierophant]

What's so fantastical about fear?

[Vilegrim]

KristinCousland wrote...

ismoketoomuch wrote...

A discussion about medieval sword weights and how and why these weapons have been misrepresented in recent history and in the entertainment industry:
http://www.thearma.o...ays/weights.htm

A example of a chinese staff fighting kata (set pattern of moves used to demonstrate competence in techniques). That ready position, sort of a quarter turn with staff at side should be familiar to anyone who played DAII. I also would like to highlight the dynamic tempo (fast, slow, super fast, pause etc.) which you see thruout the kata, which is typical of higher level kata and is meant to be realistic.


Its probably too late, but I hope Bioware develops their fighting animations for DAInq based on motion capture techniques using trained martial artists, including medieval weapons users. If they have to slow things down to look 'realistic', so be it.

Do not be too smart. This has been covered. Most well educated members of bsn know what a claymore looks like, and they also know what an oversized two hander looks like. Please do not think the two are the same.

Besides Bioware is getting the two handed combat right for once.  The alpha combat looks awesome.

If you think 2h swords are weilded like baseball bats and can blast the ground apart......

[KristinCousland]

Vilegrim, you know my thoughts on this. I wrote the op

[KristinCousland]

And btw, I really think they are on the right track. Two handers "looked more normal". I have realised reading this thread that how you describe it is important.

I do agree that Alan seems to be a bit more nonesensical on this topic than what he was about the mass effect 3 endings. Guess this is more closer to heart.

But, at least my point was that the combat looks really really good. I will be back to advising this game to all my friends, and as I do perhaps buy it to four or five as them as a present.

But, that is why the rock conjuring stuck out. Two handers seemed like two handers.

It did look really good.

[In Exile]

Vilegrim wrote...
what is the point of this straw man you are attacking? Honest question?

My point is the same as always: there are numerous ridiculous and unrealistic examples in any piece of fantasy fiction you want to find, video game or not, and singling out combat animations as anything other than a subjective preference is kind of hypocritical. For you, the only relevant consideration is a narrow range of combat animations. Cool, that bugs you. 

Yes the wraiths ran, cowards do, yes the sword was magic, it is a fantasy setting, what it wasn't was a disco generating razor edged ironing board/mining tool as you want all swords to be.  

But it is one where the wraiths are apparently bigger cowards that peasant footsoldiers? That's realistic?

Notice I am not arguing for magic to be taken out, for elves to cease to be a thing, for dragons to vanish.  I am asking for the combat animations for people using weapons to actually LOOK like people using weapons.  

But you're acting like (i) this is about realism (ii) this was something present in DA:O and (iii) that it is isn't somehow inconsistent with the decidedly unrealistic setting necessary to make fantasy work.

I'm not objecting to you asking for a preference. I'm objecting to you suggesting that there's any objective ground at all for your preference.

[Crevasse]

It all just comes down to everyone having a personal limit to what is acceptable fantasy and have drawn their line. And for a lot of people the 'rocks conjuring' just crossed that line.

For me personally, having that spike of stylistic gameplay visuals will undermine the emotional connection the rest of the game has been trying to create. I'm imagining a scene where I see I companion dying, then I have to fight of some enemies in an over dramatic stylised fight, for instance. It places comical visuals in a sincere scene. Just my personal fear.

[Vilegrim]

In Exile wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...
what is the point of this straw man you are attacking? Honest question?

1)My point is the same as always: there are numerous ridiculous and unrealistic examples in any piece of fantasy fiction you want to find, video game or not, and singling out combat animations as anything other than a subjective preference is kind of hypocritical. For you, the only relevant consideration is a narrow range of combat animations. Cool, that bugs you. 

Yes the wraiths ran, cowards do, yes the sword was magic, it is a fantasy setting, what it wasn't was a disco generating razor edged ironing board/mining tool as you want all swords to be.  

2)But it is one where the wraiths are apparently bigger cowards that peasant footsoldiers? That's realistic?

Notice I am not arguing for magic to be taken out, for elves to cease to be a thing, for dragons to vanish.  I am asking for the combat animations for people using weapons to actually LOOK like people using weapons.  

3)But you're acting like (i) this is about realism (ii) this was something present in DA:O and (iii) that it is isn't somehow inconsistent with the decidedly unrealistic setting necessary to make fantasy work.

I'm not objecting to you asking for a preference. I'm objecting to you suggesting that there's any objective ground at all for your preference.

1)yes really simple reason: real sparing is faster, more dynamic and looks far cooler than any megaton punch,
Some demonstration bouts taken from the manuscripts that have been recovered, actually look at how fast and flowing things get, and what happens to the guy who tries the big swings (hint he would get mutilated)

2) if their characterisation is that yes.

3)i) it is about weapons that really exist being used in the way that they actually function..would you be happy with an FPS where everyone shot over their shoulders without looking while downing bottles of jack?  (ii) DA:O at least tried to show things like half swording, attacking with the pommel, the use of shields as a method of battle control and attack etc etc.

The 'objective reason'  is: we know how these weapons work, how people ove with them and what works, you then place these pieces of equipment in a universe along with humanoids (who are admittedly super naturally tough and have extreme endurance) and totally change everything about the way people move, what can be done with the weapon etc etc..and make them slower and less interesting while you are at it....you may as well not have swords and just give warriors guns and grenades.

[In Exile]

Vilegrim wrote...

1)yes really simple reason: real sparing is faster, more dynamic and looks far cooler than any megaton punch,
Some demonstration bouts taken from the manuscripts that have been recovered, actually look at how fast and flowing things get, and what happens to the guy who tries the big swings (hint he would get mutilated)  

To you, that looks cooler. To me, that looks stupider. It's almost like our evaluation of how cool something looks is subjective.

2) if their characterisation is that yes.  

It's actually realistic for the ostensible villains of the series to be bigger cowards than untrained peasants? You're agreeing with this statement?

3)i) it is about weapons that really exist being used in the way that they actually function..would you be happy with an FPS where everyone shot over their shoulders without looking while downing bottles of jack?

Sure? Again, you are barking up the wrong tree with someone who doesn't care about realism.

And you're now telling me that people in DA:O used shields properly? That the 2H swords - which were swung like baseball bats - were swung in the way they actually function?

 

(ii) DA:O at least tried to show things like half swording, attacking with the pommel, the use of shields as a method of battle control and attack etc etc.  

DA2 also has characters attack with the pommel. It also has characters hold shields. By your standard DA2 was attempting to be as realistic as DA:O! Wow, you could have said that from the start.

The 'objective reason'  is: we know how these weapons work, how people ove with them and what works, you then place these pieces of equipment in a universe along with humanoids (who are admittedly super naturally tough and have extreme endurance) and totally change everything about the way people move, what can be done with the weapon etc etc..and make them slower and less interesting while you are at it....you may as well not have swords and just give warriors guns and grenades.  

We know how flesh reacts when it is set on fire, but somehow that's never stepped you from saying that it's not unrealistic for people to get hit with a fireball in the face. And we know how the human body and bones react from a warhammer blow to the chest, but that's never made you complain about how Alistar can take 5 blows from a maul and be A-OK. 

Again, it's just hypocritical.