721 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieolus]

thats1evildude wrote...

I have to agree with In Exile to a point, though I don't feel we need an entirely new system of injuries and the like. That we argue that "teh animations are unrealistic" is absurd, because the whole combat system is built on a foundation of deliberate absurdity.

No, it's built on abstraction.  Absurdity is added as flair for coolness.

[In Exile]

Ieolus wrote...

Of course it's all subjective, because it is all about what one prefers to see and play in-game! Realism is just the word used to describe that.

I honestly think you're the first person to agree with me on that.

Origins was more "realistic" only because no one was teleporting all over the battlefield and stuff. Others tried to use other terms up-thread.

Btw, I appreciate the serious tone way more.

Look, I personally don't care how a game actually handles itself so long as the gameplay is consistent. DA:O bothered me because it was inconsistent, and I personally think an RPG should either strive for realism, properly and costly, or should just abandon it entirely. 

So basically, I prefer DA2 to DA:O because to me DA2 stopped pretending, and that make it less annoying. But again, I totally recognize it's a subjective preference of mine. 

And aesthetically, I happen to really like wuxia, so that plays a part too.

No, it's built on abstraction

Abstraction is one of those things that's subjective. I can accept Battery-Ram Cassandra is an abstraction for an actual battering ram, or (the other option mentioned re: PAX) Varric using Bianca to scale up the wall is an abstraction for a series of troops scaling the walls with ladders. But as this thread indicates, not everyone can.

Just like how for you and others, the damage thing is an OK abstraction, and it just kind of drives me bonkers if I think aobut it. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 septembre 2013 - 06:55 .

[Ieolus]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I think In Exile's issue is people being subjective in regards to their want for realism.

Ergo they want melee combat to be realistic but are fine with the other elements being fantastical.

Wait,  why would that be bad?  Does it violate the all too subjective "rule of cool" that I'd never heard of before DA2?

It's bad because it only being applied to one class and could potentially gimp them and penaltize melee players I'd prefer avoiding the class imbalance of previous games if that includes giving warriors supermoves to deal with ranged fighters so be it.

Ugh.  What does gimp mean in a single player game?  You aren't competing against your other playthroughs!

[In Exile]

Ieolus wrote...

Ugh.  What does gimp mean in a single player game?  You aren't competing against your other playthroughs!

People don't want to feel their favourite class is inferior. This was a big debate in the pre-DA:O release days about how the warrior talents would work, and some arguing that the D&D auto-attack was the only way to really do it, and that it didn't unfairly prejudice warrior players. 

[thats1evildude]

Abstraction=Silly things that I'm OK with.

Not that I myself haven't used the term, mind you. I'm just acknowledging it for what it is.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 22 septembre 2013 - 07:01 .

[Ieolus]

I'd love to continue this but it's way late. Tomorrow is another day !

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...
It snowed in the sacred ashes trailer. That is weather technology from the engine. At no point in any DA games were we told, or shown, that rain doesn`t excist in Thedas.

Why do we need to be told that? Rain is never seen or mentioned. There is no evidence that the people of Thedas even have a concept of rain. The default presumption is that it does not exist.

We do have castles and siege engines, however. If one can smash down castles with swrds and shields, that makes every castle every buildt in thedas completely pointless.

They were already pointless. You can paralyse everyone inside by singing real loud. Defenses are worthless with nobody able to operate them.

[d4eaming]

In Exile wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So then, if my recollection above is inaccurate, add a simple "Mage must have clear line-of-sight to be able to do X.

Nope. Just set the entire keep on fire! Have that burn at 600 Kelvin, and you've rendered all forms of seige irrelevant because everyone melts to scrap.

I just wanna interject something here real quick.

That fireball? DA Wiki on Fireball

Now, best as I can tell, that fireball goes from cherry red on the sides to white at the front. This indicate to me that the leading edge of the fireball is white, and the trailing tendrils are cooler, fading to orange and red.

Wikipedia tells me that white fire runs 1300 to 1500 degrees C. That's 1500 Kelvin. A human body is incinerated at a lower temperature than this. That means being rendered to ash, including the bone.

I... am not sure that any fire resist enchantment will be sufficient :|

[In Exile]

d4eaming wrote..

I just wanna interject something here real quick.

That fireball? DA Wiki on Fireball

Now, best as I can tell, that fireball goes from cherry red on the sides to white at the front. This indicate to me that the leading edge of the fireball is white, and the trailing tendrils are cooler, fading to orange and red.

Wikipedia tells me that white fire runs 1300 to 1500 degrees C. That's 1500 Kelvin. A human body is incinerated at a lower temperature than this. That means being rendered to ash, including the bone.

I... am not sure that any fire resist enchantment will be sufficient :|

.... Haha. Okay, you win the thread. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 septembre 2013 - 07:01 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

d4eaming wrote...

I just wanna interject something here real quick.

That fireball? DA Wiki on Fireball

Now, best as I can tell, that fireball goes from cherry red on the sides to white at the front. This indicate to me that the leading edge of the fireball is white, and the trailing tendrils are cooler, fading to orange and red.

Wikipedia tells me that white fire runs 1300 to 1500 degrees C. That's 1500 Kelvin. A human body is incinerated at a lower temperature than this. That means being rendered to ash, including the bone.

I... am not sure that any fire resist enchantment will be sufficient :|

You are ignoring the possibilty of the colour of the flames being affected by the presence of minerals.  Just saying.

You're also assuming that magical fire is relevantly similar to non-magical fire.  The only source I have that actually describes the two within the same ruleset is AD&D, where saving throws against fire and magical fire were entirely different things.  I don't know how magical fire works in Thedas, but I'm not comfortable simply positing that its characteristics are identical to those of non-magical fire.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 22 septembre 2013 - 07:07 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Rawgrim wrote...

Kind of feels like a staged fight. I am given an uzi, my opponents are given clubs.

The fight was definitely not set up to be an overly challenging fight by any means (or even a challenging one in general)

There's still a lot of AI work that would need to be done, and it's mostly just a challenge of how do you include things in the demo.  For the purpose of this, it's simply the idea that the tactical camera is back, and how you as a player can utilize it.  There were also elements such as Cassandra charging a frozen enemy down and shattering the enemy.


Some of the specific fights and conflicts shown in the demo have already been changed and whatnot in more recent builds.

[thats1evildude]

Rawgrim wrote...

We do have castles and siege engines, however. If one can smash down castles with swrds and shields, that makes every castle every buildt in thedas completely pointless.

I would note that, in real life, the type of siege warfare favoured by films and literature did not occur very frequently. Sieges of fortresses tended to involve simply waiting your enemy out, hoping they'd eventually run out of supplies.

If you want invading a stronghold to be more realistic, then you should demand Bioware implement a function where you wait three to six weeks in real time waiting for your enemies in the fortress to eventually starve and be forced to surrender.

Myself, I just assume that most of the low-level peons in Thedas can't simply knock in a gate with a shield, because they don't have the benefit of being legendary heroes.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 22 septembre 2013 - 07:11 .

[draken-heart]

d4eaming wrote...

I just wanna interject something here real quick.

That fireball? DA Wiki on Fireball

Now, best as I can tell, that fireball goes from cherry red on the sides to white at the front. This indicate to me that the leading edge of the fireball is white, and the trailing tendrils are cooler, fading to orange and red.

Wikipedia tells me that white fire runs 1300 to 1500 degrees C. That's 1500 Kelvin. A human body is incinerated at a lower temperature than this. That means being rendered to ash, including the bone.

I... am not sure that any fire resist enchantment will be sufficient :|

Cool story, bro.

[d4eaming]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

d4eaming wrote...

I just wanna interject something here real quick.

That fireball? DA Wiki on Fireball

Now, best as I can tell, that fireball goes from cherry red on the sides to white at the front. This indicate to me that the leading edge of the fireball is white, and the trailing tendrils are cooler, fading to orange and red.

Wikipedia tells me that white fire runs 1300 to 1500 degrees C. That's 1500 Kelvin. A human body is incinerated at a lower temperature than this. That means being rendered to ash, including the bone.

I... am not sure that any fire resist enchantment will be sufficient :|

You are ignoring the possibilty of the colour of the flames being affected by the presence of minerals.  Just saying.

You're also assuming that magical fire is relevantly similar to non-magical fire.  The only source I have that actually describes the two within the same ruleset is AD&D, where saving throws against fire and magical fire were entirely different things.  I don't know how magical fire works in Thedas, but I'm not comfortable simply positing that its characteristics are identical to those of non-magical fire.

I don't recall any indication that in Thedas, magic fire is different from mundane fire. I find it kind of weird if that is the case, same with D&D. Maybe they are bending physics, I don't know. Hoppy rogues and warriors darting around like monkeys on crack is fine to me lol but magic fire that doesn't obey the laws of physics.. that one is weird to me.

Interesting how we all have different break points, eh?

[Shadow Fox]

Ieolus wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I think In Exile's issue is people being subjective in regards to their want for realism.

Ergo they want melee combat to be realistic but are fine with the other elements being fantastical.

Wait,  why would that be bad?  Does it violate the all too subjective "rule of cool" that I'd never heard of before DA2?

It's bad because it only being applied to one class and could potentially gimp them and penaltize melee players I'd prefer avoiding the class imbalance of previous games if that includes giving warriors supermoves to deal with ranged fighters so be it.

Ugh.  What does gimp mean in a single player game?  You aren't competing against your other playthroughs!

It means the class isn't as good as the others simply by design which means it isn't as fun or rewarding as the others or in worse cases simply frustrating and a chore to play as.And why should my favorite class be needlessly penaltized thus making me enjoy the game less while Mage and Rogue players lose nothing?

[Sylvius the Mad]

d4eaming wrote...

I don't recall any indication that in Thedas, magic fire is different from mundane fire. I find it kind of weird if that is the case, same with D&D. Maybe they are bending physics, I don't know. Hoppy rogues and warriors darting around like
monkeys on crack is fine to me lol but magic fire that doesn't obey the laws of physics.. that one is weird to me.

Interesting how we all have different break points, eh?

I just don't like to draw conclusions in the absence of conclusive evidence (which means I mostly don't draw conclusions).

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 22 septembre 2013 - 07:12 .

[Allan Schumacher]

EDIT: I wonder if Allan's still reading the thread... not that it matters really. I enjoy the discussion itself.

I have returned.

Unfortunately I'm not certain I share your enjoyment.

[d4eaming]

draken-heart wrote...

d4eaming wrote...

I just wanna interject something here real quick.

That fireball? DA Wiki on Fireball

Now, best as I can tell, that fireball goes from cherry red on the sides to white at the front. This indicate to me that the leading edge of the fireball is white, and the trailing tendrils are cooler, fading to orange and red.

Wikipedia tells me that white fire runs 1300 to 1500 degrees C. That's 1500 Kelvin. A human body is incinerated at a lower temperature than this. That means being rendered to ash, including the bone.

I... am not sure that any fire resist enchantment will be sufficient :|

Cool story, bro.

So basically you have nothing of substance to add.

[thats1evildude]

I do remember a scene from the Order of the Stick prequel book where Roy, the leader, tells the party wizard that they will require a certain temperature of magical fire to roast undead, and it was something like 1200-1500 Kelvin.

None of the enemies that the wizard slays with fireballs are seared to the bone, though in fairness they are just stick figures.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 22 septembre 2013 - 07:18 .

[d4eaming]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

d4eaming wrote...

I don't recall any indication that in Thedas, magic fire is different from mundane fire. I find it kind of weird if that is the case, same with D&D. Maybe they are bending physics, I don't know. Hoppy rogues and warriors darting around like
monkeys on crack is fine to me lol but magic fire that doesn't obey the laws of physics.. that one is weird to me.

Interesting how we all have different break points, eh?

I just don't like to draw conclusions in the absence of conclusive evidence (which means I mostly don't draw conclusions).

Seems weird to assume the fire it just different. But it goes back to the point of abstraction. Sure, the mob is animated as being on fire while the obvious conclusion is that is was glancing- or that it had some kind of fire resistance. Frankly, it never occured to me that the fire could be different just because it's magic, since that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

But Exile is much better at making points about the whole combat deal anyway, so I'll leave it to them to continue.

[TEWR]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

EDIT: I wonder if Allan's still reading the thread... not that it matters really. I enjoy the discussion itself.

I have returned.

Unfortunately I'm not certain I share your enjoyment.

Would a Bush Monkey help?

The fight was definitely not set up to be an overly challenging fight by any means (or even a challenging one in general)

There's
still a lot of AI work that would need to be done, and it's mostly just
a challenge of how do you include things in the demo.  For the purpose
of this, it's simply the idea that the tactical camera is back, and how
you as a player can utilize it.  There were also elements such as
Cassandra charging a frozen enemy down and shattering the enemy.

Some of the specific fights and conflicts shown in the demo have already been changed and whatnot in more recent builds.

That puts me at ease vis-a-vis the actual combat bit, somewhat.

What can you say about easing the disparity between the player and the enemies? Like, will enemies use the same animations as the player, the same abilities?

I remember a tweet about enemies using actual tactics (archers behind shield walls, for example) but that's all I can really say has been said about combat.

...and that was from ages ago.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 septembre 2013 - 07:20 .

[d4eaming]

thats1evildude wrote...

I do remember a scene from the Order of the Stick prequel book where Roy, the leader, tells the party wizard that they require a certain temperature of magical fire to roast undead, and it was something like 1200-1500 Kelvin.

Interesting. At a guess, I'd say it's because undead may be magically animated corpses, and as long as some of the body remains, the corpse will continue being animated. So, incinerating the corpse into ash would render the magic moot.

[d4eaming]

That puts me at ease vis-a-vis the actual combat bit, somewhat.

What can you say about easing the disparity between the player and the enemies? Like, will enemies use the same animations as the player, the same abilities?

In the World of Warcraft endgame quest zones, you come across mobs that use abilities the players have. I was playing my rogue when I found this out, and one of those ****ers was using fan of knives and vanish. I'm not sure I can properly describe the amount of glee I felt.

I absolutely like the idea of mobs using abilities the player gets to use. At least to an extent, since it would be super annoying if an enemy mage threw my party all over the place with force magic, my utter favorite mage specialization, the way I do with them

[Allan Schumacher]

What can you say about easing the disparity between the player and the enemies? Like, will enemies use the same animations as the player, the same abilities?

I do not know the answer to this question. I wouldn't expect perfect overlap, however. There will probably be some level of abilities that only the player has, while at the same time there being some abilities that only NPCs have.

I remember a tweet about enemies using actual tactics (archers behind shield walls, for example) but that's all I can really say has been said about combat.

I have seen some of the behaviour trees (since I'm ramping up on them) and this sort of stuff does exist, at least in an early way. Whether or not the finished product has it done sufficiently will likely depend on the person. Hopefully everyone is happy, but there will probably be some that feel it's too deterministic, and others that feel the opposite, and so forth.

[Sylvius the Mad]

d4eaming wrote...

Seems weird to assume the fire it just different.

You don't have to assume it's different.  You would need only not to assume that it's the same.

Frankly, it never occured to me that the fire could be different just because it's magic,

You're welcome.

since that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

Something doesn't need to make sense to you in order to be possibly true.