721 réponses à ce sujet

[Deadmuskrat]

A bunch of people here has a problem with Warriors smashing the ground so hard that it cleaves the ground, but not one of them think it's completely unrealistic for a warrior to block a blow from a 5 ton dragon using only a shield.

It amazes me the things people are willing to allow in their little heads as regarding to fantasy.

[ScarMK]

Deadmuskrat wrote...

A bunch of people here has a problem with Warriors smashing the ground so hard that it cleaves the ground, but not one of them think it's completely unrealistic for a warrior to block a blow from a 5 ton dragon using only a shield.

It amazes me the things people are willing to allow in their little heads as regarding to fantasy.

One is a game mechanic  that cannot be changed without changing a lot of other things.  The other is a flashy animation that can be changed with nothing else affected.  Try again.

[Deadmuskrat]

ScarMK wrote...

Deadmuskrat wrote...

A bunch of people here has a problem with Warriors smashing the ground so hard that it cleaves the ground, but not one of them think it's completely unrealistic for a warrior to block a blow from a 5 ton dragon using only a shield.

It amazes me the things people are willing to allow in their little heads as regarding to fantasy.

One is a game mechanic  that cannot be changed without changing a lot of other things.  The other is a flashy animation that can be changed with nothing else affected.  Try again.

No, explain to me the difference in how this game decides to depict the strength of Warriors between these 2 things, then i will try again.

Your "point" and dismissal does not discount my actual point and only proves that you actually agree with me.

[myahele]

I don't understand the need for "realism" in a fantasy game with magic and enchantments that can't augment one's abilities.

Lore-wise we know that people hunted dragons down to near-extinctions at least. Plus, compared to FPS where you can get shot multiple times and still live I think DA: I is doing a decent job in blending realism with fantasy

[The Six Path of Pain]

I agree, the whole cracking the earth with a sword strike just seems so out of place in Dragon Age.

[ScarMK]

Deadmuskrat wrote...

No, explain to me the difference in how this game decides to depict the strength of Warriors between these 2 things, then i will try again.

Your "point" and dismissal does not discount my actual point and only proves that you actually agree with me.

You can't.  It comes down to resources.  Most Dragon fights are optional and happen infrequently.  Why bother making new animations to properly dodge a dragon attack when there's a chance players won't see them at all?  The fights also do not happen infrequently enough that we can ignore that for just a moment.  Once it's over, you never have to bother yourself with it again.  There were also people complaining about the arishok duel and how he can basically impale Hawke multiple times.  But, it was a one time thing so a lot of people simply didn't care.

When people ask for "realistic combat", most of the time, they want combat that's grounded or consistant with lore.  The Dragon fights clearly don't do this, but like I said before, they happen so infrequently, most people can look past them.  That "ability"  (I hope it's an ability then I can just ignore it) is on par with the combat from Da2/Origins.  Everytime you use it, you're forced to see it.  (Especially if they bring back CCCs where using certain abilities actually became required if you didn't want to spend 20 minutes wittling down their health) In the case of Da2, why worry about getting into a fight with anyone, when you're practically a super-hero?  Sure you can't cast spells, but you move twice as fast as anyone as well as possess super strength and agility.  There's a point where combat animations look so "cool/flashy" that things stop making sense.  Why should I fear X when I'm clearly capable of doing Y, but Z still happens because the plot demands it.  

[Han Shot First]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

No they aren't. Spirit warriors, reavers, being a Grey Warden, having magic in your blood, templar powers ... those are all very much supernatural warrior things. Not to mention that you've got magical armor, magical weapons, etc. 

The magical abilities of Spirit warriors, Reavers, Templars, and Grey Wardens all have an explanation in the lore. Spirit warriors have been augmented by fade spirits, Reavers obtain their abilities either by making deals with demons or drinking dragon blood (in either case its blood magic), Templars take lyrium, and blood magic is also involved in making someone a Grey Warden.

If the boulder-effect makes it into the final game it should come packaged with a lore explanation as to why the warrior Inquisitor is able to hit with the force of an asteroid. There has to be more to it than just rule of cool, otherwise it kills suspension of disbelief. Warriors aren't mages, so if you are going to give them magical abilities it needs to explained where these magical abilities came from. The average person in Thedas is not born with those abilities.

And even then are still some potential problems. The first is that the physics of it are bizarre. Also do the boulders remain or do they just fade out of existence? Does it leave behind a permanent crater? Do the flying boulders hit and knock down characters or do they just pass through them as if they were made out of air? Does the boulder effect always occur no matter what sort of ground the PC is standing on? What if for example, the PC is standing on a wooden floor?

Rather than rule of cool this sounds more like DA2 style awesome button that is all flash and no substance. No thanks.

If you want to give warriors or rogues flashy effects, give them finishers where they lop off an arm, leg, or head of an opponent depending on the swing. Or finishers where they impale characters with their swords or spears. Warriors and rogues don't need boulders that come flying out from their sword strikes.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 18 septembre 2013 - 05:26 .

[Deadmuskrat]

ScarMK wrote...

Deadmuskrat wrote...

No, explain to me the difference in how this game decides to depict the strength of Warriors between these 2 things, then i will try again.

Your "point" and dismissal does not discount my actual point and only proves that you actually agree with me.

You can't.  It comes down to resources.  Most Dragon fights are optional and happen infrequently.  Why bother making new animations to properly dodge a dragon attack when there's a chance players won't see them at all?  The fights also do not happen infrequently enough that we can ignore that for just a moment.  Once it's over, you never have to bother yourself with it again.  There were also people complaining about the arishok duel and how he can basically impale Hawke multiple times.  But, it was a one time thing so a lot of people simply didn't care.

When people ask for "realistic combat", most of the time, they want combat that's grounded or consistant with lore.  The Dragon fights clearly don't do this, but like I said before, they happen so infrequently, most people can look past them.  That "ability"  (I hope it's an ability then I can just ignore it) is on par with the combat from Da2/Origins.  Everytime you use it, you're forced to see it.  (Especially if they bring back CCCs where using certain abilities actually became required if you didn't want to spend 20 minutes wittling down their health) In the case of Da2, why worry about getting into a fight with anyone, when you're practically a super-hero?  Sure you can't cast spells, but you move twice as fast as anyone as well as possess super strength and agility.  There's a point where combat animations look so "cool/flashy" that things stop making sense.  Why should I fear X when I'm clearly capable of doing Y, but Z still happens because the plot demands it.  

The Dragon tanking is one of many things that Warriors do in these games that defies logic and demonstrates superhuman strength. If you can ignore the dragon tanking because of it's infrequency (a terrible point), then what about the shrugging off of fire, frost and poisons? The massive blows from Ogres, Golems and other creatures of massive size and stregth? The getting kockdown from HUGE exposions then getting back up without a lost limb? All of these things happen quite frequently in the game and demonstrate that Warriors in this game are capable of superhuman feats. Rogues are capable of acrobatics, agility, and strength that probably wouldn't be viable in a real fight. Mages....well mages do magic. Like I said, it gets silly to nitpick as to what fits in to your particular wheelhouse and let the designers do what they want to do with the world they are being paid to make because they are creative individuals that earned the right.

If you need an explanation as to why your Warrior can sunder the earth with his smash? Well that necklace you put on with +5 strength? +5 Stregth means it's enchanted with magical properties and now you have the power of Thor. Because we ALL know that there is no necklace in the real world that is going to increase your strength, right?

[Ziggeh]

myahele wrote...

I don't understand the need for "realism" in a fantasy game with magic and enchantments that can't augment one's abilities.

Personally I see it as a problem of the perception of power (and if I could have fit any more P's into that sentence,  I would have).  

I would prefer combat to be restrained and visually realist not because it presents the characters as limited, because it portrays the world as such. If the appearance is created that any given warrior can sunder the very living earth, I'm less concerned about facing an army of demons or blighted as my own army may be fantastical.

It was the constrast of the mundane and the fantastical that made DA:O's world seem so interesting to me.

Magic itself has an in context reasoning behind breaking the laws of the mundane. Though potent is's portrayed as limited and hazardous. If it turned out anyone can summon The Knights of the Round from the heavens is creates a very different world, both narratively and stylistical. One that is not wrong or flawed or anything, but one in which hazards and threats have a different meaning.

[Han Shot First]

Why is an earth-sundering ability needed?

Is combat rendered dull and uninteresting without it? Has every sword-and-board class in every RPG until now been a complete bore to play, because it lacked an ability to shatter the earth like the fist of an angry god?

I don't think most people who don't like this effect are arguing for 100% realism. They're just looking for a balance between realism and fantasy elements, and this one seems a bit over-the-top and ridiculous looking.

[The Elder King]

My treshold on realism was shattered when my Warden survived being munched by 'Andraste'.
I don't care anymore about the realism in DA combat. I don't like much the earth shattering ability (though DAO had the wonder War Cry talent which is on the same level, and DA2 had the Berseker-Flash abilities) but it's not going to influence my purchase of the game.

Modifié par hhh89, 18 septembre 2013 - 05:53 .

[Bacusan]

I find the mage with the book, to which he burns the pages, the most amusing.
Poor sucker will be spell-less when he reaches the final boss.

"Matt, cast a damn fireball!"
"about that.... i ran out of pages...."
*facepalm*

[Ziggeh]

Deadmuskrat wrote...

The Dragon tanking is one of many things that Warriors do in these games that defies logic and demonstrates superhuman strength.

I completely agree you cannot point to individual instances and suggest they aren't realistic and that this is a problem, when the whole system itself is decidely and purposefully unrealistic.

However. There is a definite difference between non realist elements to which we have become accustomed through continued exposure to fantasy, such as health bars and non realist elements to which we haven't.

We're not talking about conforming to reality, but an expectation of the conventions of fantasy realism.

I would say personal earthquakes are a borderline case, because there are multiple examples, but because they tend to be from the more fantastical franchises, I can definitely see where people might take issue.

Deadmuskrat wrote...
If you need an explanation as to why your Warrior can sunder the earth with his smash? Well that necklace you put on with +5 strength? +5 Stregth means it's enchanted with magical properties and now you have the power of Thor. Because we ALL know that there is no necklace in the real world that is going to increase your strength, right?

That depends what you think "strength" meansin this context. Game statistics, like combat itself is an abstraction. I don't see them as definite.

So while I don't think a necklace would increase someones capacity to bench press or deadlift, I can see how owning one might inspire someone to greater feats in combat.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 18 septembre 2013 - 05:57 .

[Vilegrim]

Deadmuskrat wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

Deadmuskrat wrote...

A bunch of people here has a problem with Warriors smashing the ground so hard that it cleaves the ground, but not one of them think it's completely unrealistic for a warrior to block a blow from a 5 ton dragon using only a shield.

It amazes me the things people are willing to allow in their little heads as regarding to fantasy.

One is a game mechanic  that cannot be changed without changing a lot of other things.  The other is a flashy animation that can be changed with nothing else affected.  Try again.

No, explain to me the difference in how this game decides to depict the strength of Warriors between these 2 things, then i will try again.

Your "point" and dismissal does not discount my actual point and only proves that you actually agree with me.

You are right dragons should require a whole new set of animations but for valid resource reasons I will npt get that, not having frankly uninteresting mortal kombat chains and earth shattering sword moves is not a request of that magnitude and is not game changing so we may get that.

[Davrel]

Topsider wrote...

So long as the staff twirling mages of DA2 don't return, I'm happy... oh the indignity.

I'm afraid Vivienne already has the same staff stance. So expect to see the same old dance routine of blast, blast, piroutte, stab the ground, repeat.

[Gebert]

I agree with OP in that I think a Hollywood level of realism when it comes to the animations is desirable, though by all means if they'd make them even more realistic I'd be totally okay with that. 
Now, I could argue that the animations should be down to earth because I think it fits better in terms of the themes and general tone of the DA setting, but honestly, the main reason I want them is because I find them more aesthetically pleasing. 

(Oh, and this is not the place for this, but weapons and armour that look like they could be functional in real life are also a big plus. )

[Boycott Bioware]

Bleachrude wrote...
If we're going for REALISM, then there's ABSOLUTELY no way that a warrior can beat an OGRE in sword to sword combat.

Do people not realize jjust how silly the "I want realism" argument sounds when you have no problem with a human having even the slightest chance of fighting a creature that can pick up a fully armoured human in one hand????

And said human can then become strong enough to actually beat down a creature that can pick up said ogre in one claw (High dragon)/

Yet a human being able to create craters and being able to bring down a porticullis...THAT's unrealistic??!?!

The Orge must be realistic too...the Orge is big, they should be slow logically, they move slow because they are heavy, they depends on momentum, they cannot turn left and right or 360 degree fast because of their body posture, they are hard to hit small creatures because they are tall...

Imagine you are chasing a cat, or a mouse, it is not easy to catch the cat or mouse because of your size and the cat flexibility. So an Orge is actually hard fighting creatures smaller than them

As for dragons, same thing, they are big and heavy, yes they can fly and spit fire balls, so use a bow or crossbow shoot them from afar...or use spear or pike...a logical weapon to fight such thing

Just the graphic must not suck in enemy movement like Skyrim, that is all...in Skyrim it is so damn hard to target moving enemies using bow because of enemy move in split seconds, the frame problem...i draw my bow but not shooting, but trying to target moving mages and dragons

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

KristinCousland wrote...

Like in DA2 the warrior swung a gigantic two handed sword like gravity and intertia did not exist and rogues seemed like escapees from cirque de soleil.

You know, the average two handed sword weighs less that 3kg, so swinging it is well within the abilities of your average 8 year old

[Han Shot First]

Gebert wrote...

I agree with OP in that I think a Hollywood level of realism when it comes to the animations is desirable, though by all means if they'd make them even more realistic I'd be totally okay with that. 
Now, I could argue that the animations should be down to earth because I think it fits better in terms of the themes and general tone of the DA setting, but honestly, the main reason I want them is because I find them more aesthetically pleasing. 

(Oh, and this is not the place for this, but weapons and armour that look like they could be functional in real life are also a big plus. )

Good post.

The film industry is a good example. The battle or sword dueling scenes in many films aren't hyper-realistic, but they usually combine just enough realism and dramatic or fantasy elements to keep it interesting. Of course there are exceptions like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, but generally speaking battle or duel scenes are grounded in reality even if they had some fantastical or dramatic flourishes to make them fun. I think the boulder animation strays well beyond that, and would prefer a more cinematic quality to the melee battles.

The more your sword-fight or battle scenes look like these, the better:

Roma Victa!

We Who are About to Die Salute You

Hector vs. Achilles

No Mercy

Battle of Stirling

Battle of Amon Hen

Eddard Stark vs Jaime Lannister

No further horse lord!

Bronn vs. Ser Vardis Egan

All fun, and not a single earth-sundering move to be seen!

[iOnlySignIn]

The alternative is to make Warrior clearly the most boring class again.

[nicethugbert]

LOL, DAI combat is slooowwwwww. It lacks all sense of urgency, like DA:O and every Bioware game except DA2.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Deadmuskrat wrote...

A bunch of people here has a problem with Warriors smashing the ground so hard that it cleaves the ground, but not one of them think it's completely unrealistic for a warrior to block a blow from a 5 ton dragon using only a shield.

It amazes me the things people are willing to allow in their little heads as regarding to fantasy.

Not to mention getting munched on my a dragon(!) only to be thrown on the ground later.

[ramnozack]

Speaking of realism, I hope that the class weapon restrictions (except for staves for obvious reasons) is removed. So stupid.....just laziness/time constraint problems because they didnt want to waste the time/resources to make them work for all classes ability animations...

Modifié par ramnozack, 18 septembre 2013 - 09:30 .

[leaguer of one]

Miscellaneous Mind wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

greengoron89 wrote..
I wanna see some blood. The more, the better. Bring back messy kills so we can turn bandit and darkspawn necks into fountains.

/psycho

Ahhh...There's blood on the teeth and my eyes...Like it off doggy...

[Shaftell]

I agree with you. I am not too fond of very colorful and over the top animations when it comes to combat. I prefer a more realistic experience. The combat videos have actually looked good. But the colors in the spells are off putting and always have been off putting for me in the DA franchise. I kind of wished they implemented magic like they do in Skyrim.