721 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Fox]

Deadmuskrat wrote...

A bunch of people here has a problem with Warriors smashing the ground so hard that it cleaves the ground, but not one of them think it's completely unrealistic for a warrior to block a blow from a 5 ton dragon using only a shield.

It amazes me the things people are willing to allow in their little heads as regarding to fantasy.

Or blows from  Ogres,Ounari,giant demons or Golems.

Or how the Warden's party and Hawke are immune to the Blight.

Or how Mages conjour stuff out of thin air

Or how you can be pelted with arrows,Fireballs,Icespikes.Lightingbolts and boulders or have your blood boiled and brain hemorrhaged and just shrug it off.

[Topsider]

It's hard to make melee combat exciting when you just swing repeatedly until something dies. Sword fights really need "blade on blade" action to be effective - the ability to parry/block. Kotor had parrying but only to animate the time between rounds. Even so, it looks more dynamic than most Dragon Age fighting.

I don't mind the ground-splitting animation if its used rarely, but not every battle, that would get old fast.

[Shadow Fox]

Han Shot First wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

No they aren't. Spirit warriors, reavers, being a Grey Warden, having magic in your blood, templar powers ... those are all very much supernatural warrior things. Not to mention that you've got magical armor, magical weapons, etc. 

The magical abilities of Spirit warriors, Reavers, Templars, and Grey Wardens all have an explanation in the lore. Spirit warriors have been augmented by fade spirits, Reavers obtain their abilities either by making deals with demons or drinking dragon blood (in either case its blood magic), Templars take lyrium, and blood magic is also involved in making someone a Grey Warden.

If the boulder-effect makes it into the final game it should come packaged with a lore explanation as to why the warrior Inquisitor is able to hit with the force of an asteroid. There has to be more to it than just rule of cool, otherwise it kills suspension of disbelief. Warriors aren't mages, so if you are going to give them magical abilities it needs to explained where these magical abilities came from. The average person in Thedas is not born with those abilities.

And even then are still some potential problems. The first is that the physics of it are bizarre. Also do the boulders remain or do they just fade out of existence? Does it leave behind a permanent crater? Do the flying boulders hit and knock down characters or do they just pass through them as if they were made out of air? Does the boulder effect always occur no matter what sort of ground the PC is standing on? What if for example, the PC is standing on a wooden floor?

Rather than rule of cool this sounds more like DA2 style awesome button that is all flash and no substance. No thanks.

If you want to give warriors or rogues flashy effects, give them finishers where they lop off an arm, leg, or head of an opponent depending on the swing. Or finishers where they impale characters with their swords or spears. Warriors and rogues don't need boulders that come flying out from their sword strikes.

Word of advice friend stop treating the Lore as The Ten Commandments it'll save much teeth gnashing when it gets broken or retconed.

[animedreamer]

Blackrising wrote...

Screw realism.
If it looks cool and makes the combat fun, I'm for it.

What they said.. You know who tried to use realism? Game of Thrones on the various systems... TOTAL BORE FEST!!! DO NOT FOLLOW THEIR EXAMPLE BIOWARE!

[o Ventus]

Filament wrote...

It does feel a bit out of place with the other attacks. And I feel like we should be past the time where rocks just shoot up regardless of where you are, or Shale pulls a boulder out of a wooden floorboard.

In the case of Shale, I would rather not eliminate half a character's move set (the only character who has attacks like these that aren't magical) because they aren't standing on a specific type of terrain.

[DarthSideus2]

Well, as a huge DBZ fan, you can probably guess which side I'm on. If it looks cool, then it fine with me. Combat visual styles are a big part of why a lot of people are drawn to these type of games. Although I very much enjoy the realistic combat style of a game like (or specifically) Skyrim, a more toned down combat style (while certainly more boring to some) will also draw more comparisons to Skyrim. While this may not be a bad thing since that game sold more than 10 million copies, I would like to think that given the extended development time, the developers want DAI to be the game that future RPG's are compared to and want to emulate, instead of being another "Skyrim clone".

[Bleachrude]

Human on human fights CAN look interesting but that's because there's parrying and there's also a fair bit of movement (instead of people standing in place and simply swinging their sword at each other).

People have problems with the rolling but somehow again, the fact that in games, our warrior will simply stand there and swing a sword while little numbers appear on top of the warrior and its opponent.

Thats a-ok because that's how it was done all the time before.

Still trying to understand how an ogre can smash a player and the player's character won't budge yet apparently, said warrior looks unrealistic in being able to known down a porticulllis.

[Ziggeh]

Bleachrude wrote...
Still trying to understand how an ogre can smash a player and the player's character won't budge yet apparently, said warrior looks unrealistic in being able to known down a porticulllis.

For exactly this reason:

Bleachrude wrote...
Thats a-ok because that's how it was
done all the time before.

Realism has surprisingly little to do with reality.

[filetemo]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Deadmuskrat wrote...

A bunch of people here has a problem with Warriors smashing the ground so hard that it cleaves the ground, but not one of them think it's completely unrealistic for a warrior to block a blow from a 5 ton dragon using only a shield.

It amazes me the things people are willing to allow in their little heads as regarding to fantasy.

Or blows from  Ogres,Ounari,giant demons or Golems.

Or how the Warden's party and Hawke are immune to the Blight.

Or how Mages conjour stuff out of thin air

Or how you can be pelted with arrows,Fireballs,Icespikes.Lightingbolts and boulders or have your blood boiled and brain hemorrhaged and just shrug it off.

the problem is...PROPORTIONS!!!

Thats what makes something look unrealistic and activates your suspension of disbelief, because it's more visual

That's why people is ok with fireball casting mages but not with 7 foot tall swords... because they LOOK implausible.
That's why people is ok with darkspawn and elves but not with "unrealistic armor with huge pauldrons"

everything that gets out of the visually established proportion is dismissed as unrealistic.

Of course, everybody draws their own sandline about which proportions they can tolerate.
The more somebody has been exposed to stylised media, the more he/she will tolerate goofy looking designs.

You want to make The Maker a romanceable NPC who travels in a yellow cloud? Fine, but don't make his sword too big or it will look ridiculous and unrealistic.

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...

the problem is...PROPORTIONS!!!

The problem is hypocrisy. 

That's why people is ok with fireball casting mages but not with 7 foot tall swords... because they LOOK implausible.

But they're OK with people being set on fire without even having their face charred?

That's why people is ok with darkspawn and elves but not with "unrealistic armor with huge pauldrons"

But they're OK with being sourended by four enemies, hit for four hours, and never even tiring to  hit them back?

[Shadow Fox]

filetemo wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Deadmuskrat wrote...

A bunch of people here has a problem with Warriors smashing the ground so hard that it cleaves the ground, but not one of them think it's completely unrealistic for a warrior to block a blow from a 5 ton dragon using only a shield.

It amazes me the things people are willing to allow in their little heads as regarding to fantasy.

Or blows from  Ogres,Ounari,giant demons or Golems.

Or how the Warden's party and Hawke are immune to the Blight.

Or how Mages conjour stuff out of thin air

Or how you can be pelted with arrows,Fireballs,Icespikes.Lightingbolts and boulders or have your blood boiled and brain hemorrhaged and just shrug it off.

the problem is...PROPORTIONS!!!

Thats what makes something look unrealistic and activates your suspension of disbelief, because it's more visual

That's why people is ok with fireball casting mages but not with 7 foot tall swords... because they LOOK implausible.
That's why people is ok with darkspawn and elves but not with "unrealistic armor with huge pauldrons"

everything that gets out of the visually established proportion is dismissed as unrealistic.

Of course, everybody draws their own sandline about which proportions they can tolerate.
The more somebody has been exposed to stylised media, the more he/she will tolerate goofy looking designs.

You want to make The Maker a romanceable NPC who travels in a yellow cloud? Fine, but don't make his sword too big or it will look ridiculous and unrealistic.

Personally I think being able to survive what I described unscathed is more ridiculous  then Conan swords,ninja Rogues,pole dancing Mages,Earth breaking warriors,HUGE or bikini armor.*shrugs*

[filetemo]

people is more visual than anything. Lore explanations can cheat on your brain, not on your eyes.

In Exile wrote...

But they're OK with people being set on fire without even having their face charred?

that's far less more visual than 7 feet tall swords, for the profane eye, you'll admit.

[Zanallen]

If people want realistic combat, they should play Bushido Blade. Maybe Bioware can implement a one hit kill mode.

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...

that's far less more visual than 7 feet tall swords, for the profane eye, you'll admit.

Have you ever seen a burn victim? I volunteered in a hospital ages ago, and let me tell you that this is not the sort of thing you *ever* forget. 

[Shadow Fox]

In Exile wrote...

filetemo wrote...

that's far less more visual than 7 feet tall swords, for the profane eye, you'll admit.

Have you ever seen a burn victim? I volunteered in a hospital ages ago, and let me tell you that this is not the sort of thing you *ever* forget. 

*shudders*

[filetemo]

Fortunately I have not seen serious wounds of that type in person.

But that proves how people reacts to visual stimuli. It gets imprinted on your brain. Like how Fenris sword and Isabella's floating daggers got stuck in my head after 30 hours of DA:II

[Rawgrim]

In Exile wrote...

filetemo wrote...

that's far less more visual than 7 feet tall swords, for the profane eye, you'll admit.

Have you ever seen a burn victim? I volunteered in a hospital ages ago, and let me tell you that this is not the sort of thing you *ever* forget. 

We don`t have healing spells or healing potions in our world. They do in Thedas.

[Shadow Fox]

Rawgrim wrote...

In Exile wrote...

filetemo wrote...

that's far less more visual than 7 feet tall swords, for the profane eye, you'll admit.

Have you ever seen a burn victim? I volunteered in a hospital ages ago, and let me tell you that this is not the sort of thing you *ever* forget. 

We don`t have healing spells or healing potions in our world. They do in Thedas.

That's not realistic.:innocent:

[TsaiMeLemoni]

Rawgrim wrote...

In Exile wrote...

filetemo wrote...

that's far less more visual than 7 feet tall swords, for the profane eye, you'll admit.

Have you ever seen a burn victim? I volunteered in a hospital ages ago, and let me tell you that this is not the sort of thing you *ever* forget. 

We don`t have healing spells or healing potions in our world. They do in Thedas.

Is there a lore explanation for healing potions being immune from the same flames rapidly killing the person they are presumably attached to in some way? I would think the liquid would evaporate from the heat, be frozen solid from the ice, etc. Healing spells cover a little ground, but not every party of enemies has a mage in their cadre.

Modifié par TsaiMeLemoni, 19 septembre 2013 - 02:10 .

[Rawgrim]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

In Exile wrote...

filetemo wrote...

that's far less more visual than 7 feet tall swords, for the profane eye, you'll admit.

Have you ever seen a burn victim? I volunteered in a hospital ages ago, and let me tell you that this is not the sort of thing you *ever* forget. 

We don`t have healing spells or healing potions in our world. They do in Thedas.

That's not realistic.:innocent:

It is in DA, since its part of the lore.

[Maria Caliban]

If fighters being able to smash the ground and break it were part of the lore, that would be fine?

[In Exile]

Rawgrim wrote...
We don`t have healing spells or healing potions in our world. They do in Thedas.

So when Alistair is set on fire by a darkspawn mage in an all warrior party at Ostagar, the Maker swooped down from the heavens to cast group heal? 

This ability of players to dig their head in the sand is exactly why every realism topic is just an exercise is hypocrisy. 

[In Exile]

Filament wrote...
Abnormal mundane endurance is, but it's not so blindingly obvious and unbelievable as abnormal feats of strength (or speed). You can see the giant rock being lifted, or the cratered earth, or the hot rod speed dash, and it's just an immediate "a person couldn't do that."

Again, speak for yourself. I see a person set on fire, electroned, stabbed, stabbing an enemy fourty times without them pausing, crushed by a boulder, knocked away by a fist... and all I think is "a person would have their bones shattered",  " a person would have a concussion", " a person would have their armour melt into their flesh", "a person would be dead instantly from the electric shock."

The fact that for you this fantasy about endurance is easier to swallow doesn't set some kind of objective standard, and again, pretending that it does is what makes this entire discussion so filled with hypocrisy. 

As far as why endurance is different, there are a few qualifications to make. First is to keep in mind that "mundane endurance" is a bit of a misnomer given the availability of magic healing, so really we only need to be concerned with if someone could temporarily survive having their ribs crushed, 3rd degree burns, etc., just long enough for Magic. Which could be yes, more often than typical real life survival outcomes. Second, it seems to me that people are generally better at challenging my perception of "what a person can survive" than of "what a person can lift" or "how fast they can run." Those are easier to... quantify? To grasp? I don't know. Third, I would agree that there are some enemies who would likely genuinely instakill with their attacks by virtue of their size, and it is problematic, but I would point out that they do make you "budge" quite often, at least, contrary to the hyperbole of this thread. (at least in DAO, with the grab, charge, bite, buffet, tail and claw swipes, though DA2 removed grabs and bites) That is, in fact, one of the advancements that initially impressed me about DAO compared to NWN2, how people could actually be knocked around and generally manhandled in lots of ways. It feels like an "attempt" at a "realistic" depiction, at least, even if the actual reality would be the Warden crumpled in a heap with all their bones shattered.

Whatever mental hoops you jump through - and the sheer length of this post is a great example of that - to justify how incredibly unrealistic things are realistic is your business. But, please, stop pretending like there's a difference. And most of all, stop pretending that what you want is consistency, because you clear don't.

And beyond that, again, do you know what it means for a person to have their flesh burned and have their armour melt into them? Because it doesn't mean "get it and kill forty darkspawn with your performance unchanged from being set on fire. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 septembre 2013 - 03:57 .