305 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

leaguer of one wrote...

1. Calling a march includes mages form all circles
2. The chantries army covers all of southern Thedus.....

So in the end it was Orlais with help.

Yes. No other nation formally helped, but people from other nations did. I don't see why mercenaries or devout andrastian warriors would ignore an Exalted March (opportunity for loot and protecting the faith and such).

However, Genitivi is not wrong saying only Orlais supplied troops, no other nation did, but other people from other nations could still show up. Like from the Circles, which are provided by the Chantry, not other nations.

[cjones91]

My personal belief is the Dales were attacked for several reasons:revenge for the elves not helping in the Second Blight,because they refused to convert to Andrastism,and because Emperor Drakon who was notorious for invading other nations wanted the Dales under the Orleisian banner.Orlais had every reason to make it seem like the elves were the aggressors because they themselves benefited in several ways from that portrayal.

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
So a weakend nation is going to let it self get weaker?

Selfish nobles let their enemies die against brigands. It's not that complex a concept.

They can't do much if the head and ceter of Orlais is burnt to the ground.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish mention the longevity of the People. Zathrian wasn't the only one who lived a long life; he simply seemed to be the one who didn't age, and the player can discover why.

Your ability to deny reality is sublime. I swear I could put an elephant in front of you and you would call it a mouse.

Your inability to deal with my refusal to capitulate to your opinions never ceases to amaze.

In Exile wrote...

Yes, the one group who has a religious belief in their own immorality has lots of people - with zero evidence - mention their immorality. Zathrian was the only one ever shown in-game to have an unaturally long life and it was blood magic.

You mean Zathrian was the only one who seemed to have regained the immortality of the ancient elves (to paraphrase the Lady of the Forest); that is an important distinction.

In Exile wrote...

Saying "he appeared not to age" and that the "player can discover why" is just a blanant denial of reality that it takes double-speak to levels that even 1984 didn't aspire to reach. 

As the Lady of the Forest points out, the Dalish thought that Zathrian had relearned the immortality of his ancestors.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

cjones91 wrote...

My personal belief is the Dales were attacked for several reasons:revenge for the elves not helping in the Second Blight,because they refused to convert to Andrastism,and because Emperor Drakon who was notorious for invading other nations wanted the Dales under the Orleisian banner.Orlais had every reason to make it seem like the elves were the aggressors because they themselves benefited in several ways from that portrayal.

While I actually agree with your very first point, I should mention that Drakon had been dead for 75 years by the time the Dales fell.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 septembre 2013 - 04:11 .

[Daerog]

cjones91 wrote...

My personal belief is the Dales were attacked for several reasons:revenge for the elves not helping in the Second Blight,because they refused to convert to Andrastism,and because Emperor Drakon who was notorious for invading other nations wanted the Dales under the Orleisian banner.Orlais had every reason to make it seem like the elves were the aggressors because they themselves benefited in several ways from that portrayal.

Ya, that sounds right. Also, Orlais was getting it's butt kicked pretty bad which freaked Orlais out, then its capital was threatened, which freaked the Chantry out, so Exalted March, mages, rawr.

I wonder. If the Dalish let the Chantry know that it would not attack the Chantry, or if the Dalish stayed away from the Orlesian capital and just continued to conquer, occupy, and fortify the south, would an Exalted March have been called? Or would Orlais just had to have dealt with losing land?

Seems the Chantry didn't have an excuse for Exalted March until its HQ was threatened.

Either way, the elves were politically foolish, threatening the greatest international power of that time (The Chantry, not Orlais).

[cjones91]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

My personal belief is the Dales were attacked for several reasons:revenge for the elves not helping in the Second Blight,because they refused to convert to Andrastism,and because Emperor Drakon who was notorious for invading other nations wanted the Dales under the Orleisian banner.Orlais had every reason to make it seem like the elves were the aggressors because they themselves benefited in several ways from that portrayal.

While I actually agree with your first point, I should mention that Drakon had been dead for 75 years by the time the Dales fell.

That does'nt matter because Orlais continued his ruthless expansionist policies until Celene took the throne.Many nations are often shaped by their rulers and that can be good or bad depending on who you ask.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Your inability to deal with my refusal to capitulate to your opinions never ceases to amaze.

I don't want you to capitulate to my opinions. Xil has the same positions you do. Have I ever said that she denies reality? No. Because she argues with facts, even if I disagree with her interpretation of them.

You mean Zathrian was the only one who seemed to have regained the immortality of the ancient elves (to paraphrase the Lady of the Forest); that is an important distinction.

No, I don't. I mean that Zathrian is the only elf we have seen to live several hundred years. Seeing that an elf lived for 300 years is not the same is seeing an elf ostensibly regain immortality. That distinction is important.

As the Lady of the Forest points out, the Dalish thought that Zathrian had relearned the immortality of his ancestors.

And Mary Kirby says that dalish don't live more than humans. Look! I can also use irrelevant statements that kind of but not really state my conclusion. 

That's irrelevant. Zathrian was not immortal. Zathrian did not even have a long lifespan. He simply used a blood magic curse. Your characterization of the facts is just a misleading lie. 

Someone unfamiliar with the game would not be able to infer the massive fraud that Zathrian perpetrated on the Dalish through a blood magic curse reading your post. That is what makes it disingenuous. 

At any rate, I am once again done with this conversation. We can speak again when you pick some new fact to be misleading about. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 septembre 2013 - 04:06 .

[leaguer of one]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

My personal belief is the Dales were attacked for several reasons:revenge for the elves not helping in the Second Blight,because they refused to convert to Andrastism,and because Emperor Drakon who was notorious for invading other nations wanted the Dales under the Orleisian banner.Orlais had every reason to make it seem like the elves were the aggressors because they themselves benefited in several ways from that portrayal.

Ya, that sounds right. Also, Orlais was getting it's butt kicked pretty bad which freaked Orlais out, then its capital was threatened, which freaked the Chantry out, so Exalted March, mages, rawr.

I wonder. If the Dalish let the Chantry know that it would not attack the Chantry, or if the Dalish stayed away from the Orlesian capital and just continued to conquer, occupy, and fortify the south, would an Exalted March have been called? Or would Orlais just had to have dealt with losing land?

Seems the Chantry didn't have an excuse for Exalted March until its HQ was threatened.

Either way, the elves were politically foolish, threatening the greatest international power of that time (The Chantry, not Orlais).

Agreed...But now the chantry is shatter into paices and fighting with itself and Orlais is fighting with itself.
The fates are now smiling onthe elves...:innocent:

[In Exile]

cjones91 wrote...

My personal belief is the Dales were attacked for several reasons:revenge for the elves not helping in the Second Blight,because they refused to convert to Andrastism,and because Emperor Drakon who was notorious for invading other nations wanted the Dales under the Orleisian banner.Orlais had every reason to make it seem like the elves were the aggressors because they themselves benefited in several ways from that portrayal.

Here is the problem: on your account the Orlesians had all the justification they needed to attack the Dales first. Given the other (admitted, even by the chantry) BS accounts that the Dalish practiced human sacrifice, they had all the reasons necessary to have a justifiable cassus beli in the eyes of Thedas. Why add that the Dalish invaded? 

I am absolutely convinced that the ransacking of the Dales was almost entirely due to the Dales not helping during the 2nd blight, with a imperialist, racist designs and some religious bigotry thrown in for kicks. But I just don't think the case that the Orlesians attacked first is necessarily self-evident. 

The biggest problem that Orlais attacked first is how easy they were crushed.

Modifié par In Exile, 19 septembre 2013 - 04:11 .

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

My personal belief is the Dales were attacked for several reasons:revenge for the elves not helping in the Second Blight,because they refused to convert to Andrastism,and because Emperor Drakon who was notorious for invading other nations wanted the Dales under the Orleisian banner.Orlais had every reason to make it seem like the elves were the aggressors because they themselves benefited in several ways from that portrayal.

Here is the problem: on your account the Orlesians had all the justification they needed to attack the Dales first. Given the other (admitted, even by the chantry) BS accounts that the Dalish practiced human sacrifice, they had all the reasons necessary to have a justifiable cassus beli in the eyes of Thedas. Why add that the Dalish invaded? 

I am absolutely convinced that the ransacking of the Dales was almost entirely due to the Dales not helping during the 2nd blight, with a imperialist, racist designs and some religious bigotry thrown in for kicks. But I just don't think the case that the Orlesians attacked first is necessarily self-evident. 

The biggest problem that Orlais attacked first is how easy they were crushed.

To get the divine to call the march. What better way to ensure to get someone to war then to bring the wa to there doorstep.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

leaguer of one wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

My personal belief is the Dales were attacked for several reasons:revenge for the elves not helping in the Second Blight,because they refused to convert to Andrastism,and because Emperor Drakon who was notorious for invading other nations wanted the Dales under the Orleisian banner.Orlais had every reason to make it seem like the elves were the aggressors because they themselves benefited in several ways from that portrayal.

Ya, that sounds right. Also, Orlais was getting it's butt kicked pretty bad which freaked Orlais out, then its capital was threatened, which freaked the Chantry out, so Exalted March, mages, rawr.

I wonder. If the Dalish let the Chantry know that it would not attack the Chantry, or if the Dalish stayed away from the Orlesian capital and just continued to conquer, occupy, and fortify the south, would an Exalted March have been called? Or would Orlais just had to have dealt with losing land?

Seems the Chantry didn't have an excuse for Exalted March until its HQ was threatened.

Either way, the elves were politically foolish, threatening the greatest international power of that time (The Chantry, not Orlais).

Agreed...But now the chantry is shatter into paices and fighting with itself and Orlais is fighting with itself.
The fates are now smiling onthe elves...:innocent:

Except they don't have the might that they once did, either. There are a multtiple or mostly poor unarmed untrained city elves and scattered nomands who may not have the same exact end goals as them anymore.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 septembre 2013 - 04:55 .

[Xilizhra]

No, I don't. I mean that Zathrian is the only elf we have seen to live several hundred years. Seeing that an elf lived for 300 years is not the same is seeing an elf ostensibly regain immortality. That distinction is important.

It is, however, significant, as it's a major departure from the otherwise comparable human and elf lifespans. Additionally, Lanaya says that it's "unusual" for a Dalish to live this long, not "unheard of." Either there are a lot of suspiciously identical blood magic curses out there (especially since we've never heard of anyone else, including Tevinter, doing this), or something else is going on.

[In Exile]

leaguer of one wrote...
To get the divine to call the march. What better way to ensure to get someone to war then to bring the wa to there doorstep.

The Divine didn't call a march until half of Orlais was occupied. Or are you saying that was also fabricated?

[leaguer of one]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

My personal belief is the Dales were attacked for several reasons:revenge for the elves not helping in the Second Blight,because they refused to convert to Andrastism,and because Emperor Drakon who was notorious for invading other nations wanted the Dales under the Orleisian banner.Orlais had every reason to make it seem like the elves were the aggressors because they themselves benefited in several ways from that portrayal.

Ya, that sounds right. Also, Orlais was getting it's butt kicked pretty bad which freaked Orlais out, then its capital was threatened, which freaked the Chantry out, so Exalted March, mages, rawr.

I wonder. If the Dalish let the Chantry know that it would not attack the Chantry, or if the Dalish stayed away from the Orlesian capital and just continued to conquer, occupy, and fortify the south, would an Exalted March have been called? Or would Orlais just had to have dealt with losing land?

Seems the Chantry didn't have an excuse for Exalted March until its HQ was threatened.

Either way, the elves were politically foolish, threatening the greatest international power of that time (The Chantry, not Orlais).

Agreed...But now the chantry is shatter into paices and fighting with itself and Orlais is fighting with itself.
The fates are now smiling onthe elves...:innocent:

Except they don't have the might that they once did either. There a multtiple or mostly poor unarmed untrained city elves and scattered nomands who may not have the same exact end goals as them anymore.

But they have the chance to build that might. Sure they are not powerful now but the higher powers don't have the strenght to stop them.

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
To get the divine to call the march. What better way to ensure to get someone to war then to bring the wa to there doorstep.

The Divine didn't call a march until half of Orlais was occupied. Or are you saying that was also fabricated?

No. I'm saying  half of Orlais was allowed to be occupied to get the divine to call a march.

[cjones91]

The poor and hopeless often make great soilders once you give them something to live for since they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
It is, however, significant, as it's a major departure from the otherwise comparable human and elf lifespans.

I didn't deny that it wouldn't be major, or significant. I just said that it wouldn't be tantamount to proof that Zathrian regained Dalish immortality. If it existed, we don't know what it was. Just because someone lives long doesn't mean he's found a secret to it. The best example is that Zathrian lived all his life in the same conditions as his tribe, and yet none of them lived as long. Without a suspected mechanism, we can't talk about "reclaiming".

Additionally, Lanaya says that it's "unusual" for a Dalish to live this long, not "unheard of." Either there are a lot of suspiciously identical blood magic curses out there (especially since we've never heard of anyone else, including Tevinter, doing this), or something else is going on.

Or maybe the Dalish believe that a "long" lifespan is indicative of immortality de facto. A dalish elf that lives for a 100 years might be see as "recapturing" immortality (Lob loves using that as an example about Marethari), when IRL there are humans who do live that long.

A 300 year lifespan could be described as "unusual" if the longest lived members of a tribe are around 100-120, and the average life (like ours, IRL), is 70-80. 

leaguer of one wrote...
No. I'm saying  half of Orlais was allowed to be occupied to get the divine to call a march.

That's just an absurd conspiracy theory. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 septembre 2013 - 04:19 .

[cjones91]

leaguer of one wrote...

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
To get the divine to call the march. What better way to ensure to get someone to war then to bring the wa to there doorstep.

The Divine didn't call a march until half of Orlais was occupied. Or are you saying that was also fabricated?

No. I'm saying  half of Orlais was allowed to be occupied to get the divine to call a march.

Which is a pretty clever strategy that many warhawks have done in the past.

[In Exile]

cjones91 wrote...

Which is a pretty clever strategy that many warhawks have done in the past.

Where?

[leaguer of one]

cjones91 wrote...

The poor and hopeless often make great soilders once you give them something to live for since they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Heck, one of those poor and hopeless stopped a blight.

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
No. I'm saying  half of Orlais was allowed to be occupied to get the divine to call a march.

That's just an absurd conspiracy theory. 

No, it's not. It makes sense. This is Orlais famous for the game. Manipulation is orlais key strenght.

[cjones91]

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Which is a pretty clever strategy that many warhawks have done in the past.

Where?

The Iraq War and the attack on Pearl Harbor,the Vietnam War could be argued for since many people in the US Government wanted to invade them.

[In Exile]

leaguer of one wrote...
No, it's not. It makes sense. This is Orlais famous for the game. Manipulation is orlais key strenght.

cjones91 wrote...
The Iraq War and the attack on Pearl Harbor,the Vietnam War could be argued for since many people in the US Government wanted to invade them.

I'm backing away from this thread hard and fast now. 

[cjones91]

leaguer of one wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

The poor and hopeless often make great soilders once you give them something to live for since they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Heck, one of those poor and hopeless stopped a blight.

Yep,you take a man or woman from nothing and give them something they could obtain then they will do anything to get it.