305 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I didn't deny that it wouldn't be major, or significant. I just said that it wouldn't be tantamount to proof that Zathrian regained Dalish immortality. If it existed, we don't know what it was. Just because someone lives long doesn't mean he's found a secret to it. The best example is that Zathrian lived all his life in the same conditions as his tribe, and yet none of them lived as long. Without a suspected mechanism, we can't talk about "reclaiming".

Presumably their hypothesis was that it had something to do with his Keeper magic... which was almost right.

Or maybe the Dalish believe that a "long" lifespan is indicative of immortality de facto. A dalish elf that lives for a 100 years might be see as "recapturing" immortality (Lob loves using that as an example about Marethari), when IRL there are humans who do live that long.

A 300 year lifespan could be described as "unusual" if the longest lived members of a tribe are around 100-120, and the average life (like ours, IRL), is 70-80.

I don't see it. That's three times as long as the longest-lived ones; that'd be, at the very least, "excitingly unprecedented" more than "unusual" if it hadn't happened before. I doubt many societies could just gloss over something like that, and definitely not the immortality-seeking Dalish.

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
No, it's not. It makes sense. This is Orlais famous for the game. Manipulation is orlais key strenght.

cjones91 wrote...
The Iraq War and the attack on Pearl Harbor,the Vietnam War could be argued for since many people in the US Government wanted to invade them.

I'm backing away from this thread hard and fast now. 

You can't deny Orlais game.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Presumably their hypothesis was that it had something to do with his Keeper magic... which was almost right.

That just raises more questions. Why aren't other Firsts living for hundreds of years? Why aren't other Keepers living for hundreds of years?

I don't see it. That's three times as long as the longest-lived ones; that'd be, at the very least, "excitingly unprecedented" more than "unusual" if it hadn't happened before. I doubt many societies could just gloss over something like that, and definitely not the immortality-seeking Dalish.

Whereas I would say that for the reality denying Dalish, absolutely nothing would be more appropriate. Zathrian lied and everyone lapped it up like a dream. What's to say that other elves haven't also lied about their age, or how long their ancestors lived, or otherwise trampled on their lore and beliefs?

We've already seen how Marethari (i) abandoned her role as Keeper to preserve history with the Eluvian and (ii) perpetrated a massive lie on the entire clan. 

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...



Whereas I would say that for the reality denying Dalish, absolutely nothing would be more appropriate. Zathrian lied and everyone lapped it up like a dream. What's to say that other elves haven't also lied about their age, or how long their ancestors lived, or otherwise trampled on their lore and beliefs?

We've already seen how Marethari (i) abandoned her role as Keeper to preserve history with the Eluvian and (ii) perpetrated a massive lie on the entire clan. 

You mean when she tried to protect the rest of the clan from demons and try to manipulate Marrill  to stop dealing with Demons?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I seriously doubt the Orlesians intentionally allowed the elves to take half their country and sack their capital just so the Divine could call for a holy war, but, even assuming it's true, the elves still obliged them.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 septembre 2013 - 04:59 .

[Xilizhra]

That just raises more questions. Why aren't other Firsts living for hundreds of years? Why aren't other Keepers living for hundreds of years?

Zathrian discovering new powers?

Whereas I would say that for the reality denying Dalish, absolutely nothing would be more appropriate. Zathrian lied and everyone lapped it up like a dream. What's to say that other elves haven't also lied about their age, or how long their ancestors lived, or otherwise trampled on their lore and beliefs?

We've already seen how Marethari (i) abandoned her role as Keeper to preserve history with the Eluvian and (ii) perpetrated a massive lie on the entire clan.

Given your blatant hatred for Dalish culture, I don't know how much constructively farther this conversation could go. You've effectively said "they're stupid and they suck," and there's not much I can really say to reply.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Zathrian discovering new powers?

What would they be? That's like saying Zahtrian discovered a new science. Magic has a process, a procedure. It can be replicated. If it is magic, then Zathrian should be able to share it with others.

As it turns out, he can, but it isn't what they believed or expected.

Given your blatant hatred for Dalish culture

I don't hate their culture - aside from sense of dismay around the very particular set of beliefs that cluster around their idea of immortality - and I didn't mean to use Dalish in that context to refer to their beliefs. Rather, I meant it to be a reference to what we see in-game.

Lanaya suggests, if you take the third option, that she was aware that Zathrian was involved in the werewolf curse. What Marethari did to Merril, you would agree with, was unfair to her and a dessertion of a duty as Keeper, no?

Edit:

You seem to think I dislike the Dalish because there's never been a pro-Chantry thread on this forum, not really. If we were talking about the nonsense that Andrastians peddle - if there were vocal posters talking about how all mages created the darkspawn and there was no counterpoint - I'd be saying the same things and would be accused of being a blantant chantry hater. 

But, very few people challenge the Dalish myths about immortality. There's a sizeable contigent on the forum that believes that the entire Andrastian faith is just a derivative lie based on the elven gods, which are the real and true gods of Thedas. For someone who believes in a secular account of what happened in Thedas, the general pro-elf mythology character of the forum tilts my conversation to one side. 

You've effectively said "they're stupid and they suck," and there's not much I can really say to reply.

I said no such thing. Even if you're trying to characterize my words in the most aggressive and attacking manner possible, the most you could reduce them to is that the Dalish are very motivated to perpetuate cultural beliefs even when the evidence is not there. 

Edit:

I tried to be as fair you your agument as possible, which amounts to "I don't think the word 'unusual' is appropriate for Zathrian's lifespan, therefore, it must be that other elves live for 200+ years." I didn't want to attack it on those grounds, so I took it for granted that Lanaya wouldn't use unusual unless she was only imagining that elves did live that long, and tried to come up with another explanation. 

I see now I should have used my original argument to avoid confusion. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 septembre 2013 - 04:49 .

[Xilizhra]

Lanaya suggests, if you take the third option, that she was aware that Zathrian was involved in the werewolf curse. What Marethari did to Merril, you would agree with, was unfair to her and a dessertion of a duty as Keeper, no?

Yes... so what are you saying?

You seem to think I dislike the Dalish because there's never been a pro-Chantry thread on this forum, not really. If we were talking about the nonsense that Andrastians peddle - if there were vocal posters talking about how all mages created the darkspawn and there was no counterpoint - I'd be saying the same things and would be accused of being a blantant chantry hater.

I always thought you disliked the Dalish because of your empathy with the city elves and being annoyed that the Dalish considered themselves superior.

I said no such thing. Even if you're trying to characterize my words in the most aggressive and attacking manner possible, the most you could reduce them to is that the Dalish are very motivated to perpetuate cultural beliefs even when the evidence is not there.

Possibly... but they weren't doing it all that hard with Zathrian, certainly.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes... so what are you saying?

I am saying that, based on my experience with the Dalish in-game, am suspect about their personal testimony when it comes to a deeply held belief. It is the same attitude that I have for Chantry myths and stories. 

I always thought you disliked the Dalish because of your empathy with the city elves and being annoyed that the Dalish considered themselves superior.

No, that's just the explanation for why I'm very passionate about precisely how Bioware should portray the emancipation of the elves. Because I relate to the CEs, I very much dislike the Dalish narrative about them. But, from the Dalish POV, I understand entirely why they would blame the CEs, especially given how much the Dalish sacrifice on a daily basis to preserve their way of life. It's not surprising they see the CEs as servile after all of that.

Since I understand, I don't hate the Dalish for that... I just prefer playing as a CE, and want to see the CEs emancipated. Since, again, our topics on freeing the elves just have Chantry sympathizers on one hand and a "pro-Dales" (for lack of a better term) group on the other side, that sees freedom as being a reconstituted Dales that's entirely Dalish, I'm kind of left out in the cold. 

Possibly... but they weren't doing it all that hard with Zathrian, certainly.

My own view is that the Dalish really didn't give us any indication they were actually studying what was so magical about his immortality. I believe Lanaya even gives him as an example of immortality by avoiding humans, which shows that very little was spent trying to understand what he was about beyond the regular myths. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 septembre 2013 - 05:05 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your inability to deal with my refusal to capitulate to your opinions never ceases to amaze.

I don't want you to capitulate to my opinions. Xil has the same positions you do. Have I ever said that she denies reality? No. Because she argues with facts, even if I disagree with her interpretation of them.

You seem to continually miss the point and argue what you infer from what's said, even when it often misses the point entirely. It makes it difficult to discuss anything with you.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean Zathrian was the only one who seemed to have regained the immortality of the ancient elves (to paraphrase the Lady of the Forest); that is an important distinction.

No, I don't. I mean that Zathrian is the only elf we have seen to live several hundred years. Seeing that an elf lived for 300 years is not[/b] the same is seeing an elf ostensibly regain immortality. That[/b] distinction is important.

The Dalish mention their kin live longer. Gaider said the same thing about the longevity of the People. Zathrian's blood magic ritual doesn't detract from that.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As the Lady of the Forest points out, the Dalish thought that Zathrian had relearned the immortality of his ancestors.

And Mary Kirby says that dalish don't live more than humans. Look! I can also use irrelevant statements that kind of but not really state my conclusion.

While Gaider and the Dalish say otherwise, which you seem to take issue with since you bring it up all the time.

In Exile wrote...

That's irrelevant. Zathrian was not immortal. Zathrian did not even have a long lifespan. He simply used a blood magic curse. Your characterization of the facts is just a misleading lie.

If Zathrian didn't age, then he was immortal; however, my actual point (that you blatantly ignored) was that the Lady of the Forest comments that Zathrian's clan thinks he rediscovered the immortality of the ancient elves.

In Exile wrote...

Someone unfamiliar with the game would not be able to infer the massive fraud that Zathrian perpetrated on the Dalish through a blood magic curse reading your post. That is what makes it disingenuous.

This is what makes it difficult to take you seriously. When I point out that the clan thought that Zathrian regained the immortal of the ancient elves, I'm not arguing that he actually accomplished that.

In Exile wrote...

At any rate, I am once again done with this conversation. We can speak again when you pick some new fact to be misleading about.  

Considering how misleading your entire post was, I'd prefer it if you didn't bother me again.

[Daerog]

Talking about manipulation. Flemeth seems to be the greatest manipulator of all time.

The Fall of the Dales must then be Flemeth's fault, she subltly manipulated Orlais to get pissy with the elves and for the elves to get aggressive.

All the major controversies in Thedas. Flemeth's fault. Manipulating behind the scenes, pulling the strings.

In other words: I'm not saying it's Flemeth, but it's Flemeth.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean Zathrian was the only one who seemed to have regained the immortality of the ancient elves (to paraphrase the Lady of the Forest); that is an important distinction.

No, I don't. I mean that Zathrian is the only elf we have seen to live several hundred years. Seeing that an elf lived for 300 years is not[/b] the same is seeing an elf ostensibly regain immortality. That[/b] distinction is important.

The Dalish mention their kin live longer. Gaider said the same thing about the longevity of the People. Zathrian's blood magic ritual doesn't detract from that.

I kept this chain here to illustrate the absurdity of this conversation. How in the name of anything is this quote even midly related to what I said? Here is what we started with:

In Exile wrote...

Yes, the one group who has a religious belief in their own immorality has lots of people - with zero evidence - mention their immorality. Zathrian was the only one ever shown in-game to have an unaturally long life and it was blood magic.

It is like you have a list of facts that you repeat regardless of what I say and with no attention to how I say it. And speaking of the DG thing, do you recall how in this very thread I said that you dishonestly quote that without refering to Mary Kirby's more recent post contradicting that? You're doing right here! And it's totally irrelevant to a discussion where you were trying to put words in my mouth! 

Neither you nor I are refering to different facts. But whereas I say what it is - a blood magic ritual that made Zathrian live longer - you're trying to couch it in misleading and hearsay terms like the Lady of the Forest (not Dalish) said what the Dalish believe about Zathrian, using the positive phrase "regained their immortality", so now that it's in this spin-friendly form, you're somehow more right than you were before, and if I don't agree with your spin, I'm dishonest. 

While Gaider and the Dalish say otherwise, which you seem to take issue with since you bring it up all the time.

My position, as I have said each time, is that when two developers contradict each other on lore all we can conclude is that the lore is inconsistent, and then the only thing we can do after that is have a debate about it using logic and reason.

I don't take issue with what DG said. I take issue with what you attempt to hide and obscure.

And as I have said repatedly: if what the Dalish says counts as proof of immortality then by our own logic you have to concede  that the Mages are guilty of creating the darkspawn on the basis of the Chantry account alone. That is where the hypcrosy comes from. 

If Zathrian didn't age, then he was immortal;  

No, that's not true at all. The fact that Zathrian did not age in 300 years does not mean that Zathrian does not age. This is one of those things that's logically impossible to prove. 

however, my actual point (that you blatantly ignored) was that the Lady of the Forest comments that Zathrian's clan thinks he rediscovered the immortality of the ancient elves.

No. Your actual point was to obscure reality. You said "Zathrian wasn't the only one who lived a long life; he simply seemed to be the one who didn't age, and the player can discover why." 

My reply was that this was a mischaracterization, because it hides the fact that Zathrian used a blood magic ritual to live long. Then you mention this nonsense about the Lady of the Forest, and say that's what I  "mean" and that this "distinction is important". A distinction I didn't draw, didn't mean, and was irrelevant to the point I made. 

This is what makes it difficult to take you seriously. When I point out that the clan thought that Zathrian regained the immortal of the ancient elves, I'm not arguing that he actually accomplished that.

And here is what I said originally: "I doubt it as DG's statement isn't ironclad as it's only backed by Zathrian". 

Please explain to me how your very misleading characterization of what Zathrian lived long at all contradicts what I said, which is that the statement that DG made is not ironclad (relative to in-game evidence), since the only (in-game example) of an elf that lived for more than 100 years (or so) is Zathrian?

Considering how misleading your entire post was, I'd prefer it if you didn't bother me again.

I'll continue to call out lies. Stop lying, and I'll stop calling them out. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 septembre 2013 - 05:24 .

[Sir JK]

Quite frankly, what did and what did not happen in the Dales and in the war between the two nations is rather irrelevant. It's interesting, and certainly something I hope we'll learn more about (and if the elven rebellion does show up ingame that seems to be the perfect place). But it matters little now, 800 years later. 32-40 human generations later. Maybe the elves gloss over that they were the aggressors? Maybe Orlais is? Who knows? Not a single individual that took part, even among the elves, is alive today.

It does not matter

The elves are not rebelling for things that happened so damn long ago. They're rebelling for what happens now. Which decisions were taken 800 years ago does not matter now because the people in power now could not possibly have made them.

It is their current position and treatment, the current leaders and the current circumstances that matters. The Dalish account of what happened is really only relevant as a religious backdrop to the conflict, and that's only to the Dalish and to them whether it matches Orlesian/Chantry accounts or not matters little. They think it is the Truth, that's enough.

There were gross injustices comitted during and following the war. Presumably by both sides. But it is the injustices today that should concern us when it comes to this discussion. Not the ones from 800 and more years ago. They're little more than legend at this point.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish mention their kin live longer. Gaider said the same thing about the longevity of the People. Zathrian's blood magic ritual doesn't detract from that. [/quote]

I kept this chain here to illustrate the absurdity of this conversation. How in the name of anything is this quote even midly related to what I said? Here is what we started with:

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Yes, the one group who has a religious belief in their own immorality has lots of people - with zero evidence - mention their immorality. Zathrian was the only one ever shown in-game to have an unaturally long life and it was blood magic[/b]. [/quote]

It is like you have a list of facts that you repeat regardless of what I say and with no attention to how I say it. And speaking of the DG thing, do you recall how in this very thread[/b] I said that you dishonestly quote that without refering to Mary Kirby's more recent post contradicting that? You're doing right here! And it's totally irrelevant to a discussion where you were trying to put words in my mouth!  [/quote]

As opposed to your incessant vilification of the Dalish because you think they were written in racist tones. And you seem to confuse longevity with immortality.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Neither you nor I are refering to different facts. But whereas I say what it is - a blood magic ritual that made Zathrian live longer - you're trying to couch it in misleading and hearsay terms like the Lady of the Forest (not Dalish) said what the Dalish believe about Zathrian, using the positive phrase "regained their immortality", so now that it's in this spin-friendly form, you're somehow more right than you were before, and if I don't agree with your spin, I'm dishonest. [/quote]

I pointed out that the Lady of the Forest remarked that Zathrian's clan thought he regained the immortality of his ancestors; I never claimed he did, and nobody was under that impression. It's really as simple as what I actually wrote, not what you 'inferred' from it.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

While Gaider and the Dalish say otherwise, which you seem to take issue with since you bring it up all the time. [/quote]

My position, as I have said each time, is that when two developers contradict each other on lore all we can conclude is that the lore is inconsistent, and then the only thing we can do after that is have a debate about it using logic and reason. [/quote]

Origins and Gaider's commentary hold more weight for me. 

[quote]In Exile wrote...

I don't take issue with what DG said. I take issue with what you attempt to hide and obscure. [/quote]

You mean one game and Gaider's commentary versus one post by Kirby that could have been mistaken.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

And as I have said repatedly: if what the Dalish says counts as proof of immortality then by our own logic you have to concede  that the Mages are guilty of creating the darkspawn on the basis of the Chantry account alone[/b]. That is where the hypcrosy comes from. [/quote]

The reason why the Dalish live longer than their Alienage brethren is certainly an issue that can be debated, but I'm not willing to toss aside a game and a developer commentary on their longevity because of one post by Kirby. I've also never said their longevity was definitive proof, so your retort doesn't make any sense.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If Zathrian didn't age, then he was immortal;  [/quote]

No, that's not true at all. The fact that Zathrian did not age in 300 years does not mean that Zathrian does not age. This is one of those things that's logically impossible to prove. [/quote]

Zathrian was immortal; his immortality was tied to the never-ending curse that only he could break, as the Lady of the Forest points out.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

however, my actual point (that you blatantly ignored) was that the Lady of the Forest comments that Zathrian's clan thinks he rediscovered the immortality of the ancient elves. [/quote]

No. Your actual point was to obscure reality. You said "Zathrian wasn't the only one who lived a long life; he simply seemed to be the one who didn't age, and the player can discover why." [/quote]

Because the Dalish reference other elves living a long life; Ilen references his father as one possible example, as Ethereal Writer has mentioned. Simply because you have disdain for the Dalish and a bias about how they were written doesn't dismiss that. And your insinuation about my Zathrian line is absurd, even for you.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

My reply was that this was a mischaracterization, because it hides the fact that Zathrian used a blood magic ritual to live long. Then you mention this nonsense about the Lady of the Forest, and say that's what I  "mean" and that this "distinction is important". A distinction I didn't draw, didn't mean, and was irrelevant to the point I made. [/quote]

It isn't misleading; it's a clear failure of reading comprehension on your part, or you blatantly lying and twisting my words into something they clearly don't mean. And this is a discussion among Dragon Age fans, about the lore from games and other sources. Let's not pretend otherwise simply because you have an incessant need to vilify me.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

This is what makes it difficult to take you seriously. When I point out that the clan thought[/i] that Zathrian regained the immortal of the ancient elves, I'm not arguing that he actually accomplished that. [/quote]

And here is what I said originally: "I doubt it as DG's statement isn't ironclad as it's only backed by Zathrian". [/quote]

You're welcome to disagree with me.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Please explain to me how your very misleading characterization of what Zathrian lived long at all contradicts what I said, which is that the statement that DG made is not ironclad (relative to in-game evidence), since the only (in-game example) of an elf that lived for more than 100 years (or so) is Zathrian? [/quote]

The fact that you claim it's misleading is the issue. It isn't. The clan thought he reclaimed the immortality of his ancestors, as the Lady of the Forest explicitly says. If you're too busy slandering me to bother to read what I actually wrote, the fault doesn't lie with me. And Ethereal has cited Ilen in the past, who stands as another example of a Dalish elf who is likely long-lived.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering how misleading your entire post was, I'd prefer it if you didn't bother me again.
[/quote]

I'll continue to call out lies. Stop lying, and I'll stop calling them out. [/quote]

Origins has Dalish characters reference the longevity of the People. One Dalish character has a father who left the Dales to Ferelden, as Ethereal Writer has pointed out in the past. Gaider commented about the Dalish seeming to live longer the more generations they live away from humans. These aren't lies. I simply think Kirby's post contradicts too much to be accepted, unless there's been a recton in the lore.

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
To get the divine to call the march. What better way to ensure to get someone to war then to bring the wa to there doorstep.

The Divine didn't call a march until half of Orlais was occupied. Or are you saying that was also fabricated?

No. I'm saying  half of Orlais was allowed to be occupied to get the divine to call a march.

Which would be the stupidest plan in history.

Deliberately loose - soldiers, territory and resoruces - and appear weak to all other nations.

It's like cutting off your right arm so you can slap the guy with your left while he's distracted by your blood loss.

[Vilegrim]

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...


How does it not make sense? The chantry has a history of prevoking others to there own end? Why would one who puts themselves up as the heros admit to wrong doing?

You don't seem to know the background of the war.

The War with the Dales occurred relatively shortly after a blight.  Dales was a strong nation at the time specifically because they did not participate in the alliance against the blight.  They offered no aid to Tevinter or Orlais as the two fought off and killed the Archdemon.  This was to the extent that they watched a town be taken by darkspawn, more or less twiddling their thumbs.

Fast forward ~80 years.   Ever since Orlais showed its bravery against the Darkspawn, the Grey Wardens converted to Andrastianism and they, in addition to the Chantry's own disciples, act as missionaries.   This has been going on for ~ 80 years or so.  Suddenly the Dales begin to harm the missionaries within their borders.  In response, the Chantry sent armed Templar to protect their missionaries.  This eventually led to armed disputes between the Templar and the Dalish guards (I believe they were called Emerald Knights). Supposedly.

So, we have a nation that was more or less untouched by the Blight compared to practicaly everywhere else (the Dales) against a tired nation that is recovering from the Blight which it put aside its differences with Tevinter of all places to stop it (Orlais).  

Regardless of who started it (not important atm), the Dales led their armies into Orlais and sacked the capital.  It is at this point that the Exalted March was called, and Orlais tore the Dalish army apart and destroyed the Dales for what they did.

Are you going to tell me that the tired nation of Orlais was the aggressor against a nation with the idea that humans cause a loss of immortality that had willingly sat out the Blight?  Does that seem logical to you?

edit:

I'll leave it here for you to digest.  I believe I got the story down, and if you want you can look back at some old topics; this has been discussed to death.

You do know the dalish did tell the humans to leave them be right? Sure, you can say the the emplars were only there to protect the missionaries but the missionaies had no right to be in the dales. They were ask to leave the lands be. The dalish have a right to protect there lands. If thing when out of hand with the templar because the missionaries did not get the understand to leave the dalish alone then all I can say is both sides may of gotten too hot headed over subborn beliefs. We all don't know what happend but all we can say is that if the missionaries left the dalish alone, none the war would of  happened.

The notion that you can block someone from a piece of land based on the fact that they are human is just uncalled for. The elves tried to run away because they were scared that "humaness" was contageous. That's no excuse for just attacking people for no reason. 

You can deny someone a visa for any reason you like if they still enter they are criminals and can be treated as such.

[Oasis_JS]

holy cow..this topic..wow..just last night i only 2 pages, haha.. wow =D

well i'll say it again.. read masked empire =D that will give a better input of the civil war and elf conflict,, and will give a better understanding of the aftermath of it during DA:I =D or just check dragon age wiki this April when it comes out. =D

[VampireSoap]

It's sooo hard to keep track of what you guys are discussing...anyone willing to spare a moment and give me a quick summary? Help me out here, please? lol

[Xilizhra]

No, that's just the explanation for why I'm very passionate about precisely how Bioware should portray the emancipation of the elves. Because I relate to the CEs, I very much dislike the Dalish narrative about them. But, from the Dalish POV, I understand entirely why they would blame the CEs, especially given how much the Dalish sacrifice on a daily basis to preserve their way of life. It's not surprising they see the CEs as servile after all of that.

Since I understand, I don't hate the Dalish for that... I just prefer playing as a CE, and want to see the CEs emancipated. Since, again, our topics on freeing the elves just have Chantry sympathizers on one hand and a "pro-Dales" (for lack of a better term) group on the other side, that sees freedom as being a reconstituted Dales that's entirely Dalish, I'm kind of left out in the cold.

The city elves wouldn't be abandoned, they'd be let in as well. The trouble is that their culture... well, doesn't really work if they're emancipated, because it's based more or less solely around surviving as marginalized and disliked servants. Ironically, the only real way to keep their culture intact would be for the Dalish to treat them as second-class citizens; if they're fully integrated, that removes the Alienage and as such the core of their entire culture. All that remains is their Andrastianism, and quite frankly, what's that ever done for elves aside from keep them in bondage? Not that I'd try to ban a religion... although I would certainly deal with any elves who tried to betray mages to the templars.

My own view is that the Dalish really didn't give us any indication they were actually studying what was so magical about his immortality. I believe Lanaya even gives him as an example of immortality by avoiding humans, which shows that very little was spent trying to understand what he was about beyond the regular myths.

But he didn't avoid humans; he was quite active in fighting those who were threatening, such as the bandits who kidnapped Lanaya. He seems to have had more contact with humans than the rest of the clan, really.

[wcholcombe]

LobselVith8 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

The Dalish and the elven warder are both heresy, neither are a 1st hand scholarly account of what happened which is what WoT is based on. 

No one knows the absolute truth (despite the Chantry supporters in this thread trying to claim that it's the Orlesian version that vilifies the elves), but it's asinine for WoT to dismiss the fact that the Dalish have their own version to such an important moment in their history.

Unless this is bioware trying to tell us what really happened.  If you were writing a scholarly account of how an event from the past happened, you would look for corroborating 1st hand accounts that support each other.  Niether the Warden or the dailesh oral histories are 1st hand accounts.  

[TK514]

wcholcombe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

The Dalish and the elven warder are both heresy, neither are a 1st hand scholarly account of what happened which is what WoT is based on. 

No one knows the absolute truth (despite the Chantry supporters in this thread trying to claim that it's the Orlesian version that vilifies the elves), but it's asinine for WoT to dismiss the fact that the Dalish have their own version to such an important moment in their history.

Unless this is bioware trying to tell us what really happened.  If you were writing a scholarly account of how an event from the past happened, you would look for corroborating 1st hand accounts that support each other.  Niether the Warden or the dailesh oral histories are 1st hand accounts.  

Given that World of Thedas is billed as the definitive guide to Thedas and all the details of the setting, I don't see how there's much room to dismiss it until such time as BioWare releases an errata to correct a fact (which they have done) or it is contradicted directly in a later installment of the game.  It is clearly intended to be the final word on the subjects it covers, and not liking what it has to say isn't a valid reason to dismiss it.

Just as not liking what Mary Kirby has to say isn't a valid reason to dismiss her statement.  Fictional worlds are subject to change and reassessment by the creators in order for them to be able to tell the stories they want to tell.  It has been my experience with every keeper of canon so far that it is accepted that newer information overrides older information unless intentionally spelled out as a mistake or misunderstanding.  In this case, Kirby's information is the newest, and thus most up-to-date, information we have on the subject.  DG's statements are both over a year and a half old, and not publicly available in a first-hand format that allows anyone to view the entire context of the discussion.

That leave us with:

• Anecdotal evidence in-game DA:O, with the one visible example being conclusively disproven by the Warden.
• Second Hand statements from a writer that are over a year and a half old.
• First Hand statements from a writer that are a couple of months old.

Could Kirby be mistaken?  Sure.  But I'd say it's telling, given the amount of involvement the BioWare staff has in these boards, including David Gaider, that there hasn't been a correction if she is.  Until such time as a correction happens, I don't see that anyone has a leg to stand on claiming she's wrong.

[Zkyire]

Silfren wrote...

Zkyire wrote...
If the Elves rise up and start a war of their own when the world is practically tearing itself apart, then I hope each and every one of them get butchered.

I see your point, but in fairness, that is the perfect time for the elves to start a war.  Plus, it's quite possible that they could start a war long before it becomes apparent that there's a tear in the Fade, etc., reacting to the civil war of Orlais rather than anything else.  If they were to do something like this, I think it would be more that their actions would be PART of why the world was tearing itself apart, rather than something that happens simultaneously.

It's a little...well, no, it's flat out silly to demand that a people start a war ONLY when it's convenient for the rest of the world, lol. 

It would be silly, but the Dalish are isolationists.

They don't really have any diplomatic relations with any Human nation. No alliances, no ceasefires, no trade agreements. No negotiations for land or resources, nothing.

And yet they're still tolerated.

If they start a war, which results in their obliteration, they'll have nobody to blame but themselves. If they at least attempted some form of diplomacy over the years, and then started a war during the the Mage/Templar conflict, they could at least point to some diplomatic tensions or whatever, y'know, a reason.

But because they're isolationists, coupled with their starting a war, they'll be seen as having no reason, as doing it purely because the opportunity arose. An they'll be treated much harsher.

Instead it'll be "Oh hey the humans are killing each other. Dog pile!". It'll be hard to garner sympathy from elements of the Human population. Instead the majority (probably all) will be against them. The first time they were almost wiped out, if they start a war again, and lose again? They're gone. And they'll have nobody to blame but themselves.

So yeah, starting a war while the world is tearing itself apart is a stupid thing to do for the Elves. Attacking weakened Human civilisations? Sure, it seems good in the short term, but it will not end well for them.

[Vilegrim]

Zkyire wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Zkyire wrote...
If the Elves rise up and start a war of their own when the world is practically tearing itself apart, then I hope each and every one of them get butchered.

I see your point, but in fairness, that is the perfect time for the elves to start a war.  Plus, it's quite possible that they could start a war long before it becomes apparent that there's a tear in the Fade, etc., reacting to the civil war of Orlais rather than anything else.  If they were to do something like this, I think it would be more that their actions would be PART of why the world was tearing itself apart, rather than something that happens simultaneously.

It's a little...well, no, it's flat out silly to demand that a people start a war ONLY when it's convenient for the rest of the world, lol. 

It would be silly, but the Dalish are isolationists.

They don't really have any diplomatic relations with any Human nation. No alliances, no ceasefires, no trade agreements. No negotiations for land or resources, nothing.

And yet they're still tolerated.

If they start a war, which results in their obliteration, they'll have nobody to blame but themselves. If they at least attempted some form of diplomacy over the years, and then started a war during the the Mage/Templar conflict, they could at least point to some diplomatic tensions or whatever, y'know, a reason.

But because they're isolationists, coupled with their starting a war, they'll be seen as having no reason, as doing it purely because the opportunity arose. An they'll be treated much harsher.

Instead it'll be "Oh hey the humans are killing each other. Dog pile!". It'll be hard to garner sympathy from elements of the Human population. Instead the majority (probably all) will be against them. The first time they were almost wiped out, if they start a war again, and lose again? They're gone. And they'll have nobody to blame but themselves.

So yeah, starting a war while the world is tearing itself apart is a stupid thing to do for the Elves. Attacking weakened Human civilisations? Sure, it seems good in the short term, but it will not end well for them.

They should offer maker cultists the same mercy they where offered convert and be enslaved or die with the choice of impalement or crucifixion,  in fact that is the deal I hope my inquisitor can offer to all maker cultist of whatever race.

If that fails tear the veil wide and nail the maker to the gates of his city.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 19 septembre 2013 - 03:20 .

[maliluka]

Here is a thought maybe we are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Maybe it's not the Elves that start the rebellion, but it is the rumored plot of the rebellion that causes action. If the meeting of the clans occurs about the same time this rumor starts going around, and you have a bunch of humans who are already superstitious trouble will start brewing.