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[Jedi Master of Orion]

So Bioware's writers are now Orlesians? You know it could be that the Orlesian version is actually right. Or that the Dalish version isn't what you interpret it to be. The Codex on the Fall of the Dales for Dalish wardens for example is an obviously enormously truncated account. It goes straight from mentioning the templars showing up to the Fall of Halamshiral. It skips over the war entirely, even the elves' successes in defending the the Dales.

But really my point was that on page 7 (right before the map of Thedas) there is a page explaining what all the symbols on the timeline mean and how the book works. On the right side of the page it says "Though written in-world the volume's main text is one, objective voice."

leaguer of one wrote...

page number.

13. There's a section called History of The Exalted Marches.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 septembre 2013 - 02:39 .

[BlueMagitek]

leaguer of one wrote...
Because the victors don't change the story of what happened.(Looks at Japan.)<_<

As I recall, Japan the loser is changing what has happened (731, Nanking, etc).

[LobselVith8]

leaguer of one wrote...

page number.

Page 13 of WoT, but it also contradicts who had the elves moved into human nations, and WoT even omits the Dalish version of what started the war. It's an imperfect book with admitted mistakes.

[leaguer of one]

BlueMagitek wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
Because the victors don't change the story of what happened.(Looks at Japan.)<_<

As I recall, Japan the loser is changing what has happened (731, Nanking, etc).

No, they were the loser with Amaerica. Not so much with the other countries the attacked. They have yet to admit to what they done in their invasion.

[leaguer of one]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So Bioware's writers are now Orlesians? You know it could be that the Orlesian version is actually right. Or that the Dalish version isn't what you interpret it to be. The Codex on the Fall of the Dales for Dalish wardens for example is an obviously enormously truncated account. It goes straight from mentioning the templars showing up to the Fall of Halamshiral. It skips over the war entirely, even the elves' successes in defending the the Dales.

But really my point was that on page 7 (right before the map of Thedas) there is a page explaining what all the symbols on the timeline mean and how the book works. On the right side of the page it says "Though written in-world the volume's main text is one, objective voice."

No, more of the case that it's written in character. That book is meant to seem to be read in universe. It's written like if someone from the dragon age universe wrote it. 

[Daerog]

The book is not "written" by BioWare, it is "written" by that Genitivi scholar person or whoever. Who is the most trustworthy source of info so far, as he seems to be less bias as others, such as the Dalish whose culture depends on distancing themselves from humans and the best way to do that is by making them seem like monsters.

Still, it is open to mistakes, intential or otherwise. Some things have been corrected, but that blog post to make corrections was still "written" by Genitivi.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 19 septembre 2013 - 02:45 .

[BlueMagitek]

leaguer of one wrote...
No, they were the loser with Amaerica. Not so much with the other countries the attacked. They have yet to admit to what they done in their invasion.

Japan quite officially lost World War 2.  And they're misrepresenting the actions that they had taken. 

You're free to assume that "history is written by the victors", and that's true to an extent.  But one account is written down by people who admittedly have a pro-Chantry (which implies a pro-Orlais) bias, while the other account is oral history (unreliable at best) told by people with a long held (if not hatred, dislike) of non-Dalish (if you don't believe me, play a City Elf or Dwarf at the Dalish camp and have the audacity to question or not immediately bend knee to their beliefs).

[leaguer of one]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

The book is not "written" by BioWare, it is "written" by that Genitivi scholar person or whoever. Who is the most trustworthy source of info so far, as he seems to be less bias as others, such as the Dalish whose culture depends on distancing themselves by humans and the best way to do that is by making them seem like monsters.

Still, it is open to mistakes, intential or otherwise. Some things have been corrected, but that blog post to make corrections was still "written" by Genitivi.

So in short, not everything in it is 100% true and it was made to have errors in it.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So Bioware's writers are now Orlesians?

I'm not amused. There are two versions to what happened. You know that.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know it could be that the Orlesian version is actually right.

The Dalish version could be the correct version. You never know. Omitting it causes a lot of problems.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Or that the Dalish version isn't what you interpret it to be. The Codex on the Fall of the Dales for Dalish wardens for example is an obviously enormously truncated account. It goes straight from mentioning the templars showing up to the Fall of Halamshiral. It skips over the war entirely, even the elves' successes in defending the the Dales.

The elven Warden can explicitly condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves didn't follow their religion, so it's not strictly limited to a Dalish perspective.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 septembre 2013 - 02:47 .

[leaguer of one]

BlueMagitek wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
No, they were the loser with Amaerica. Not so much with the other countries the attacked. They have yet to admit to what they done in their invasion.

Japan quite officially lost World War 2.  And they're misrepresenting the actions that they had taken. 

You're free to assume that "history is written by the victors", and that's true to an extent.  But one account is written down by people who admittedly have a pro-Chantry (which implies a pro-Orlais) bias, while the other account is oral history (unreliable at best) told by people with a long held (if not hatred, dislike) of non-Dalish (if you don't believe me, play a City Elf or Dwarf at the Dalish camp and have the audacity to question or not immediately bend knee to their beliefs).

I understand this but  if I take all you said in accout then there is no real truth then.

[Daerog]

leaguer of one wrote...

So in short, not everything in it is 100% true and it was made to have errors in it.

No, that is an assumption. Genitivi could be 100% right and it was made with no errors.

[wcholcombe]

Again, the codex entries have biases and the World of Thedas is stated that it is written without bias.

[maliluka]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

So in short, not everything in it is 100% true and it was made to have errors in it.

No, that is an assumption. Genitivi could be 100% right and it was made with no errors.

except he was already proven wrong and that he had made errors,
ie Behlen being the middle child.

[BlueMagitek]

leaguer of one wrote...
 I understand this but  if I take all you said in accout then there is no real truth then.

I'm sure the start of the Dales will be shrouded in mystery, but the Dalish version is significantly more suspect than the Genetivi version.

In fact, when you look at what was happening at the time, the Dalish version doesn't make sense at all.

[Daerog]

leaguer of one wrote...

 I understand this but  if I take all you said in accout then there is no real truth then.

Just because all the facts are not known doesn't mean there isn't a truth. People still do archeology and other historical studies to see if any new or contradicting info shows up. The Exalted March of the dales may still be debated by scholars for ages to come, but the most reliable info at this time is from Genitivi.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So Bioware's writers are now Orlesians?

I'm not amused. There are two versions to what happened. You know that.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know it could be that the Orlesian version is actually right.

The Dalish version could be the correct version. You never know. Omitting it causes a lot of problems.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Or that the Dalish version isn't what you interpret it to be. The Codex on
the Fall of the Dales for Dalish wardens for example is an obviously
enormously truncated account. It goes straight from mentioning the
templars showing up to the Fall of Halamshiral. It skips over the war
entirely, even the elves' successes in defending the the Dales.

The elven Warden can explicitly condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales
because the elves didn't follow their religion, so it's not strictly
limited to a Dalish perspective.

That doesn't make him right. An elven warden has no special knowledge as to why the war with the Dales started. In fact World of Thedas doesn't technically mention how or explicitly what the one true reason why the war started either aside from "border skirmishes." All it mentions is the order of events that took place at the time.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 septembre 2013 - 02:54 .

[leaguer of one]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

 I understand this but  if I take all you said in accout then there is no real truth then.

Just because all the facts are not known doesn't mean there isn't a truth. People still do archeology and other historical studies to see if any new or contradicting info shows up. The Exalted March of the dales may still be debated by scholars for ages to come, but the most reliable info at this time is from Genitivi.

How can that be so if he disreguards a source? How can it be reliable if one sides version be ignored.

[Daerog]

maliluka wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

So in short, not everything in it is 100% true and it was made to have errors in it.

No, that is an assumption. Genitivi could be 100% right and it was made with no errors.

except he was already proven wrong and that he had made errors,
ie Behlen being the middle child.

Yes, and those were corrected in a blog post "written" by Genitivi, he didn't correct anything else, so one could assume that the rest is correct, or one could assume otherwise.

Still, he is a more reliable source than the dalish who seem to have xenophobic leanings which would make lying more beneficial to keep with their line of thought.

Genitivi could say that Orlais started it, and Orlais is at fault, because he is not answering to Orlais, he can even mention mistakes the Chantry has made. It doesn't change his way of life. He is not a part of Orzammar.

[leaguer of one]

BlueMagitek wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
 I understand this but  if I take all you said in accout then there is no real truth then.

I'm sure the start of the Dales will be shrouded in mystery, but the Dalish version is significantly more suspect than the Genetivi version.

In fact, when you look at what was happening at the time, the Dalish version doesn't make sense at all.

How does it not make sense? The chantry has a history of prevoking others to there own end? Why would one who puts themselves up as the heros admit to wrong doing?

[wcholcombe]

Possibly because one sides story couldn't be proven or corroborated in any way. In a scholarly writing you don't use source material that can't be corroborated.

[Daerog]

leaguer of one wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

 I understand this but  if I take all you said in accout then there is no real truth then.

Just because all the facts are not known doesn't mean there isn't a truth. People still do archeology and other historical studies to see if any new or contradicting info shows up. The Exalted March of the dales may still be debated by scholars for ages to come, but the most reliable info at this time is from Genitivi.

How can that be so if he disreguards a source? How can it be reliable if one sides version be ignored.

You mean like how we have disregarded many other claims about historical events that are generally believed to not be true?

He's probably heard what the Dalish say, he's probably seen many accounts of what happened, he's probably seen the log books about money being spent during that time period by the Chantry, and he's probably concluded that the Dalish tale is bull and doesn't match the evidence he has seen.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That doesn't make him right. An elven warden has no special knowledge as to why the war with the Dales started. In fact World of Thedas doesn't technically mention how or explicitly what the one true reason why the war started either aside from "border skirmishes." All it mentions is the order of events that took place at the time.

You missed the point. It's omission makes it seem as though there's only one version of events, which makes it difficult to take it as credible when that's clearly untrue.

[leaguer of one]

wcholcombe wrote...

Possibly because one sides story couldn't be proven or corroborated in any way. In a scholarly writing you don't use source material that can't be corroborated.

No, can at least state the info has a chance to be false or true, you can still state the other perspective. The completly ignored the dalish side just to not make the chantry who commistioned the book look bad. Heck, they even made sure to not state that the chanty spread false romurs about the elves make sacrifices.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Page 28 does mention that the Dales "rejection of the Maker was cause for Chantry ire." But it doesn't mention who struck first exactly, only that "tensions mounted" or there were "border skirmishes" before the elves raided Red Crossing. Nor what the Orlesians were more motivated by in taking the Dales. It does mention that the Exalted March was not called until years into the war.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That doesn't make him right. An elven warden has no special knowledge as to
why the war with the Dales started. In fact World of Thedas doesn't
technically mention how or explicitly what the one true reason why the
war started either aside from "border skirmishes." All it mentions is
the order of events that took place at the time.

You missed the point. It's omission makes it seem as though there's only one
version of events, which makes it difficult to take it as credible when
that's clearly untrue.

Why couldn't it be that the version in the book is what is true?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 septembre 2013 - 03:03 .

[Daerog]

leaguer of one wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
 I understand this but  if I take all you said in accout then there is no real truth then.

I'm sure the start of the Dales will be shrouded in mystery, but the Dalish version is significantly more suspect than the Genetivi version.

In fact, when you look at what was happening at the time, the Dalish version doesn't make sense at all.

How does it not make sense? The chantry has a history of prevoking others to there own end? Why would one who puts themselves up as the heros admit to wrong doing?

Because this is Genitivi, a scholar, who while tutored by the Chantry, is not the Chantry. He may have is bias due to his upbringing, but as was seen in Origins, he actively seeks evidence and information surrounding rumors and tales, so he does get active in his research.

Also, the Dalish puts themselves up as victims (even though they invaded Orlais and sacked the capital, now why would they need to go that far if they were on the defense?), why would they admit to wrong doing?