305 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

 I understand this but  if I take all you said in accout then there is no real truth then.

Just because all the facts are not known doesn't mean there isn't a truth. People still do archeology and other historical studies to see if any new or contradicting info shows up. The Exalted March of the dales may still be debated by scholars for ages to come, but the most reliable info at this time is from Genitivi.

How can that be so if he disreguards a source? How can it be reliable if one sides version be ignored.

You mean like how we have disregarded many other claims about historical events that are generally believed to not be true?

He's probably heard what the Dalish say, he's probably seen many accounts of what happened, he's probably seen the log books about money being spent during that time period by the Chantry, and he's probably concluded that the Dalish tale is bull and doesn't match the evidence he has seen.

It's not 100% disreguared. They are at least mention to have a chance to be false. Usually if it not even metioned it's a control of information.

[BlueMagitek]

leaguer of one wrote...


How does it not make sense? The chantry has a history of prevoking others to there own end? Why would one who puts themselves up as the heros admit to wrong doing?

You don't seem to know the background of the war.

The War with the Dales occurred relatively shortly after a blight.  Dales was a strong nation at the time specifically because they did not participate in the alliance against the blight.  They offered no aid to Tevinter or Orlais as the two fought off and killed the Archdemon.  This was to the extent that they watched a town be taken by darkspawn, more or less twiddling their thumbs.

Fast forward ~80 years.   Ever since Orlais showed its bravery against the Darkspawn, the Grey Wardens converted to Andrastianism and they, in addition to the Chantry's own disciples, act as missionaries.   This has been going on for ~ 80 years or so.  Suddenly the Dales begin to harm the missionaries within their borders.  In response, the Chantry sent armed Templar to protect their missionaries.  This eventually led to armed disputes between the Templar and the Dalish guards (I believe they were called Emerald Knights). Supposedly.

So, we have a nation that was more or less untouched by the Blight compared to practicaly everywhere else (the Dales) against a tired nation that is recovering from the Blight which it put aside its differences with Tevinter of all places to stop it (Orlais).  

Regardless of who started it (not important atm), the Dales led their armies into Orlais and sacked the capital.  It is at this point that the Exalted March was called, and Orlais tore the Dalish army apart and destroyed the Dales for what they did.

Are you going to tell me that the tired nation of Orlais was the aggressor against a nation with the idea that humans cause a loss of immortality that had willingly sat out the Blight?  Does that seem logical to you?

edit:

I'll leave it here for you to digest.  I believe I got the story down, and if you want you can look back at some old topics; this has been discussed to death.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 19 septembre 2013 - 03:05 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I always figured the mentions of the Chantry sending templars was a reference to the Exalted March itself, after the missionaries had been expelled from the Dales.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 septembre 2013 - 03:05 .

[leaguer of one]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
 I understand this but  if I take all you said in accout then there is no real truth then.

I'm sure the start of the Dales will be shrouded in mystery, but the Dalish version is significantly more suspect than the Genetivi version.

In fact, when you look at what was happening at the time, the Dalish version doesn't make sense at all.

How does it not make sense? The chantry has a history of prevoking others to there own end? Why would one who puts themselves up as the heros admit to wrong doing?

Because this is Genitivi, a scholar, who while tutored by the Chantry, is not the Chantry. He may have is bias due to his upbringing, but as was seen in Origins, he actively seeks evidence and information surrounding rumors and tales, so he does get active in his research.

Also, the Dalish puts themselves up as victims (even though they invaded Orlais and sacked the capital, now why would they need to go that far if they were on the defense?), why would they admit to wrong doing?

Because they had not intrest in human lands. Added, being that Genitivi is shemlin I doubt he could get close to the dalish to ask questions anyway. The dalish have never been invaders with out the reason to defend themselves. Before this conflict that had a100% policy of non-contact with the out side world...And suddenly they are just going to go ageinst that with no rason?

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Page 28 does mention that the Dales "rejection of the Maker was cause for Chantry ire." But it doesn't mention who struck first exactly, only that "tensions mounted" or there were "border skirmishes" before the elves raided Red Crossing. Nor what the Orlesians were more motivated by in taking the Dales. It does mention that the Exalted March was not called until years into the war.

The Dalish section should have included their version of this historical event, not the Orlesian version.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You missed the point. It's omission makes it seem as though there's only one version of events, which makes it difficult to take it as credible when that's clearly untrue.

Why couldn't it be that the version in the book is what is true? 

Your personal preference on this event has nothing to do with my point. It's one version, excluding the Dalish version in a book for fans that should include it. It's disingenuous to include one version for fans when there are at least two versions.

[leaguer of one]

BlueMagitek wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...


How does it not make sense? The chantry has a history of prevoking others to there own end? Why would one who puts themselves up as the heros admit to wrong doing?

You don't seem to know the background of the war.

The War with the Dales occurred relatively shortly after a blight.  Dales was a strong nation at the time specifically because they did not participate in the alliance against the blight.  They offered no aid to Tevinter or Orlais as the two fought off and killed the Archdemon.  This was to the extent that they watched a town be taken by darkspawn, more or less twiddling their thumbs.

Fast forward ~80 years.   Ever since Orlais showed its bravery against the Darkspawn, the Grey Wardens converted to Andrastianism and they, in addition to the Chantry's own disciples, act as missionaries.   This has been going on for ~ 80 years or so.  Suddenly the Dales begin to harm the missionaries within their borders.  In response, the Chantry sent armed Templar to protect their missionaries.  This eventually led to armed disputes between the Templar and the Dalish guards (I believe they were called Emerald Knights). Supposedly.

So, we have a nation that was more or less untouched by the Blight compared to practicaly everywhere else (the Dales) against a tired nation that is recovering from the Blight which it put aside its differences with Tevinter of all places to stop it (Orlais).  

Regardless of who started it (not important atm), the Dales led their armies into Orlais and sacked the capital.  It is at this point that the Exalted March was called, and Orlais tore the Dalish army apart and destroyed the Dales for what they did.

Are you going to tell me that the tired nation of Orlais was the aggressor against a nation with the idea that humans cause a loss of immortality that had willingly sat out the Blight?  Does that seem logical to you?

edit:

I'll leave it here for you to digest.  I believe I got the story down, and if you want you can look back at some old topics; this has been discussed to death.

You do know the dalish did tell the humans to leave them be right? Sure, you can say the the emplars were only there to protect the missionaries but the missionaies had no right to be in the dales. They were ask to leave the lands be. The dalish have a right to protect there lands. If thing when out of hand with the templar because the missionaries did not get the understand to leave the dalish alone then all I can say is both sides may of gotten too hot headed over subborn beliefs. We all don't know what happend but all we can say is that if the missionaries left the dalish alone, none the war would of  happened.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No what I'm saying is that I think the point of the book is that it's telling us what the truth really is, regardless of the two perspectives we got from the games.

I also don't think it's as biased in favor of one side as you seem to think it is, since it leaves the motives of both sides and first strike ambiguous.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 septembre 2013 - 03:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I always figured the mentions of the Chantry sending templars was a reference to the Exalted March itself, after the missionaries had been expelled from the Dales.

The codex reads their invasion as a response to the elves kicking out Chantry missionaries, and the elven Warden notes the Chantry invaded the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert.

[Br3admax]

leaguer of one wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...


How does it not make sense? The chantry has a history of prevoking others to there own end? Why would one who puts themselves up as the heros admit to wrong doing?

You don't seem to know the background of the war.

The War with the Dales occurred relatively shortly after a blight.  Dales was a strong nation at the time specifically because they did not participate in the alliance against the blight.  They offered no aid to Tevinter or Orlais as the two fought off and killed the Archdemon.  This was to the extent that they watched a town be taken by darkspawn, more or less twiddling their thumbs.

Fast forward ~80 years.   Ever since Orlais showed its bravery against the Darkspawn, the Grey Wardens converted to Andrastianism and they, in addition to the Chantry's own disciples, act as missionaries.   This has been going on for ~ 80 years or so.  Suddenly the Dales begin to harm the missionaries within their borders.  In response, the Chantry sent armed Templar to protect their missionaries.  This eventually led to armed disputes between the Templar and the Dalish guards (I believe they were called Emerald Knights). Supposedly.

So, we have a nation that was more or less untouched by the Blight compared to practicaly everywhere else (the Dales) against a tired nation that is recovering from the Blight which it put aside its differences with Tevinter of all places to stop it (Orlais).  

Regardless of who started it (not important atm), the Dales led their armies into Orlais and sacked the capital.  It is at this point that the Exalted March was called, and Orlais tore the Dalish army apart and destroyed the Dales for what they did.

Are you going to tell me that the tired nation of Orlais was the aggressor against a nation with the idea that humans cause a loss of immortality that had willingly sat out the Blight?  Does that seem logical to you?

edit:

I'll leave it here for you to digest.  I believe I got the story down, and if you want you can look back at some old topics; this has been discussed to death.

You do know the dalish did tell the humans to leave them be right? Sure, you can say the the emplars were only there to protect the missionaries but the missionaies had no right to be in the dales. They were ask to leave the lands be. The dalish have a right to protect there lands. If thing when out of hand with the templar because the missionaries did not get the understand to leave the dalish alone then all I can say is both sides may of gotten too hot headed over subborn beliefs. We all don't know what happend but all we can say is that if the missionaries left the dalish alone, none the war would of  happened.

The notion that you can block someone from a piece of land based on the fact that they are human is just uncalled for. The elves tried to run away because they were scared that "humaness" was contageous. That's no excuse for just attacking people for no reason. 

[leaguer of one]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

No what I'm saying is that I think the point of the book is that it's telling us what the truth really is, regardless of the two perspectives we got from the games.

I also don't think it's as biased in favor of one side as you seem to think it is.

As long as it it ignores the dalish side it's not 100% true. This is something written to be commision by the chantry. I'll take want they said about the marches with a grain of salt.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Your personal preference on this event has nothing to do with my point. It's one version, excluding the Dalish version in a book for fans that should include it. It's disingenuous to include one version for fans when there are at least two versions.

You use these words, but I'm convinced you don't know what they mean. Remind me, how often do you quote Mary Kirby's post that the Dalish elves have the same lifespan as all other races when the topic comes up?

I have read the passage from WOT account, and all that it appears to do is give a list of events that are, speaking generally, agreed upon between the two accounts. 

[Daerog]

leaguer of one wrote...


Because they had not intrest in human lands. Added, being that Genitivi is shemlin I doubt he could get close to the dalish to ask questions anyway. The dalish have never been invaders with out the reason to defend themselves. Before this conflict that had a100% policy of non-contact with the out side world...And suddenly they are just going to go ageinst that with no rason?

The Warden was able to talk to the Dalish. Hawke was able to talk. Some shemlins are invited, especially if Genitivi pretends he is a scholar who is supporting the Dalish. However, you are right, some dalish are so racist they kill humans on sight.

However, Genitivi does research.

Some Dalish story teller said it is not strong evidence. Orlesian nobles saying their version, is not strong evidence. Genitivi likely looked at more than just the tales. He likely looked for patterns, looked at old tomes, looked at troop movement information, any letters that may have survived, he's probably been to the Dales and looked at the landscape, Genitivi is active in his research.

As for the Dalish being isolated. Ya, sure, that isn't refuted much. It seems they got pissed off at the Chantry sending missionaries, and then Templars to protect the missionaries. They may feel that this contact with shems was draining their lives and so retaliated by attacking Orlais. Perhaps Orlais provoked by mocking the elf guards at the borders. Who knows? Genitivi doesn't seem to know what exactly happened with the initial border skirmishes, but he does write down that only Orlais officially participated in the Exalted March. Why would he be lying about that and not say that the Dalish started the skirmishes first?

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

No what I'm saying is that I think the point of the book is that it's telling us what the truth really is, regardless of the two perspectives we got from the games.

I also don't think it's as biased in favor of one side as you seem to think it is.

It isn't telling us the indisputable truth about events in dispute; the debate on the inception of the darkspawn should have clarified that for you, despite WoT mentioning the Andrastian fable.

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...


How does it not make sense? The chantry has a history of prevoking others to there own end? Why would one who puts themselves up as the heros admit to wrong doing?

You don't seem to know the background of the war.

The War with the Dales occurred relatively shortly after a blight.  Dales was a strong nation at the time specifically because they did not participate in the alliance against the blight.  They offered no aid to Tevinter or Orlais as the two fought off and killed the Archdemon.  This was to the extent that they watched a town be taken by darkspawn, more or less twiddling their thumbs.

Fast forward ~80 years.   Ever since Orlais showed its bravery against the Darkspawn, the Grey Wardens converted to Andrastianism and they, in addition to the Chantry's own disciples, act as missionaries.   This has been going on for ~ 80 years or so.  Suddenly the Dales begin to harm the missionaries within their borders.  In response, the Chantry sent armed Templar to protect their missionaries.  This eventually led to armed disputes between the Templar and the Dalish guards (I believe they were called Emerald Knights). Supposedly.

So, we have a nation that was more or less untouched by the Blight compared to practicaly everywhere else (the Dales) against a tired nation that is recovering from the Blight which it put aside its differences with Tevinter of all places to stop it (Orlais).  

Regardless of who started it (not important atm), the Dales led their armies into Orlais and sacked the capital.  It is at this point that the Exalted March was called, and Orlais tore the Dalish army apart and destroyed the Dales for what they did.

Are you going to tell me that the tired nation of Orlais was the aggressor against a nation with the idea that humans cause a loss of immortality that had willingly sat out the Blight?  Does that seem logical to you?

edit:

I'll leave it here for you to digest.  I believe I got the story down, and if you want you can look back at some old topics; this has been discussed to death.

You do know the dalish did tell the humans to leave them be right? Sure, you can say the the emplars were only there to protect the missionaries but the missionaies had no right to be in the dales. They were ask to leave the lands be. The dalish have a right to protect there lands. If thing when out of hand with the templar because the missionaries did not get the understand to leave the dalish alone then all I can say is both sides may of gotten too hot headed over subborn beliefs. We all don't know what happend but all we can say is that if the missionaries left the dalish alone, none the war would of  happened.

The notion that you can block someone from a piece of land based on the fact that they are human is just uncalled for. The elves tried to run away because they were scared that "humaness" was contageous. That's no excuse for just attacking people for no reason. 

Please, it was not because they were scared of human. They just wanted to rebuild there culture. They were  under the heel of human for centries and lost most of what made them what they are. They deserve the chance to rebuild what they are. If someone comes into your home ageints your will you have the right to kick them out.  What would you do if another county came into your country armed?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The codex mentions the missionaries, then the templars, then mentions that they were driven from Halamshiral. So it sounds like the author either skipped over the Fall of the Dales entirely or explained an enormously simplified version of it. The latter seems far more likely, to me.

The elves see the invasion of the Dales as a result of the humans resenting their worship of The Creators. That might still be true (at least in part), especially if Orlais struck first.

But if you were thinking that the Dalish account is that the attack on Red Crossing, capture of Montismmard and sack of Val Royeaux were entirely made up by the Chantry, then I think the book is telling us that isn't true.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 septembre 2013 - 06:59 .

[Br3admax]

With bibles? Probably nothing.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your personal preference on this event has nothing to do with my point. It's one version, excluding the Dalish version in a book for fans that should include it. It's disingenuous to include one version for fans when there are at least two versions. 

You use these words, but I'm convinced you don't know what they mean. Remind me, how often do you quote Mary Kirby's post that the Dalish elves have the same lifespan as all other races when the topic comes up?

Because she seems to have made a mistake, given Gaider's comment and the Dalish in Origins.

In Exile wrote...

I have read the passage from WOT account, and all that it appears to do is give a list of events that are, speaking generally, agreed upon between the two accounts. 

It entirely ignores the Dalish account.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 septembre 2013 - 03:23 .

[leaguer of one]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...


Because they had not intrest in human lands. Added, being that Genitivi is shemlin I doubt he could get close to the dalish to ask questions anyway. The dalish have never been invaders with out the reason to defend themselves. Before this conflict that had a100% policy of non-contact with the out side world...And suddenly they are just going to go ageinst that with no rason?

The Warden was able to talk to the Dalish. Hawke was able to talk. Some shemlins are invited, especially if Genitivi pretends he is a scholar who is supporting the Dalish. However, you are right, some dalish are so racist they kill humans on sight.

However, Genitivi does research.

Some Dalish story teller said it is not strong evidence. Orlesian nobles saying their version, is not strong evidence. Genitivi likely looked at more than just the tales. He likely looked for patterns, looked at old tomes, looked at troop movement information, any letters that may have survived, he's probably been to the Dales and looked at the landscape, Genitivi is active in his research.

As for the Dalish being isolated. Ya, sure, that isn't refuted much. It seems they got pissed off at the Chantry sending missionaries, and then Templars to protect the missionaries. They may feel that this contact with shems was draining their lives and so retaliated by attacking Orlais. Perhaps Orlais provoked by mocking the elf guards at the borders. Who knows? Genitivi doesn't seem to know what exactly happened with the initial border skirmishes, but he does write down that only Orlais officially participated in the Exalted March. Why would he be lying about that and not say that the Dalish started the skirmishes first?

Reguardless, he can still include it with the statement it may not be 100% true. The fact that it may not be 100% true  does not mean it should be ignored. Even written thing are not garanteed to be 100% true.

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

With bibles? Probably nothing.

Templars are armed with bibles? Funny, I never seen a templar kill a mage with a bible he was armed with.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The codex mentions the missionaries, then the templars, then mentions that they were driven from Halamshiral. So it sounds to me that the author either skipped over the Fall of the Dales entirely or explained an enormously simplified version of it. The latter seems far more likely.

The elves see the invasion of the Dales as a result of the humans resenting their worship of The Creators. That might still be true (at least in part), especially if Orlais struck first.

But if you were thinking that the Dalish account is that the attack on Red Crossing, capture of Montismmard and sack of Val Royeaux were entirely made up by the Chantry, then I think the book is telling us that isn't true.

Because the authors didn't bother to provide the Dalish version of this historical event? Seems more like an oversight by simply giving us the Orlesian version.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 septembre 2013 - 03:26 .

[Br3admax]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

With bibles? Probably nothing.

Templars are armed with bibles? Funny, I never seen a templar kill a mage with a bible he was armed with.

Funny, since the missionaries came first, even by your own account I believe. 

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

With bibles? Probably nothing.

Templars are armed with bibles? Funny, I never seen a templar kill a mage with a bible he was armed with.

Funny, since the missionaries came first, even by your own account I believe. 

The missionaries came first, they were told to leave which was in the right of the Dalish to do. Then the missionaries came back with temlpars....Then the fighting happened.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What exactly do you imagine the full version of the Dalish accounts of the Fall of the Dales to be? That the Chantry gathered up all the nations of Thedas to attack the isolationist Dales before any other fighting had broken out and attacked because the Chantry wanted to convert them?

If so, then think the book didn't include that version because the writers are telling us it wasn't actually what happened.

I don't think the human and elf tellings of the story are so dramatically far apart, just that they emphasize different events from the time.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 septembre 2013 - 03:32 .

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your personal preference on this event has nothing to do with my point. It's one version, excluding the Dalish version in a book for fans that should include it. It's disingenuous to include one version for fans when there are at least two versions. 

You use these words, but I'm convinced you don't know what they mean. Remind me, how often do you quote Mary Kirby's post that the Dalish elves have the same lifespan as all other races when the topic comes up?

Because she seems to have made a mistake, given Gaider's comment and the Dalish in Origins.

I doubt it as DG's statement isn't ironclad as it's only backed by Zathrian.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Because she seems to have made a mistake, given Gaider's comment and the Dalish in Origins.

And the writers of WOT have determined that the Dalish made a mistake, and mistated events to suit their fable. See? I just paralleled your reasoning. 

It entirely ignores the Dalish account.

And not one line above you offered an excellent rationalization for ignoring it. It's almost magical to see the double think you're using. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 septembre 2013 - 03:34 .