935 réponses à ce sujet

[Mahumia]

Trolldrool wrote...

I wouldn't mind seeing a templar like Ser Bryant from Lothering who even when learning that you and/or Morrigan are mages outside the Circle without templar supervision, chooses to focus on protecting refugees from the encroaching darkspawn. Basically a templar that is aware of his duties, but has his priorities straight. Stop end of the world now. Hunt mages later.

Yes, this . I don't mind seeing more of those who do not belong to the group of rabid magehunters.

Although Cullen claims that 'mages are not people' I think that he would still be able to get his priorities straight. Just a bit traumatised after what happened in the Feralden Circle. Mix into that the huge heap of bloodmages running amok in Kirkwall, and I can see where he is coming from. I guess there is more work to do for the Inquisitor-phychic.

[Mr.House]

Cullen has seen the extreme of both mages and templars, and even stripped the ranks of a Templar and helped kill her because she had gone to gar and was abusing her power. He was changed at the end of DA2 and I for one hope they continue his arc.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Yeah, well that might work if it weren't for the fact that Cullen flat out declares that mages CANNOT be seen as people.  Just sayin'.  People keep holding him up as this paragon of moderation and reason, and he just isn't.  That he's not as bad as Meredith or Alrik does not erase the fact that he made his position on mages VERY clear,
and it wasn't all sunshine and roses.

So? Can you demonstrate a way in which Cullen's feelings towards mages; never mind that his feelings are that mages are not people like non-mages which is absolutely true; negativelly impacted the way in which he conducted himself?
Did he not behave in a reasonable matter?

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Yeah, well that might work if it weren't for the fact that Cullen flat out declares that mages CANNOT be seen as people.  Just sayin'.  People keep holding him up as this paragon of moderation and reason, and he just isn't.  That he's not as bad as Meredith or Alrik does not erase the fact that he made his position on mages VERY clear,
and it wasn't all sunshine and roses.

So? Can you demonstrate a way in which Cullen's feelings towards mages; never mind that his feelings are that mages are not people like non-mages which is absolutely true; negativelly impacted the way in which he conducted himself?
Did he not behave in a reasonable matter?

When he participated in the Annulment.

[Sir JK]

MisterJB wrote...
Where does he make this confession?

Having just looked it up, I appeared to have misremembered. My apologies. It is an accusation leveled against him, nothing more.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

When he participated in the Annulment.

Mind, however, that the only templar in Kirkwall's entire order that knows the Kirkwall circle is innocent is Meredith. This rite may only be quasi-legal and you really have to accept the notion of the rite as neccessary to even begin to think about going along with it, but given the information at hand... can we really condemn Cullen for following his commanding officer's orders?

I know following orders is not a viable excuse and that soldiers should think for themselves from time to time. I know you don't accept any of the templars practises as morally acceptable under any circumstance. But try to put ypurself in his shoes. He has no solid evidence of Meredith having lost it. He has no knowledge of the circles innocence. And if there is one templar in the world that would find the RoA neccessary, it's him.... given his experiences.

What was he supposed to do? Refuse and be exceuted on the spot?

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Yeah, well that might work if it weren't for the fact that Cullen flat out declares that mages CANNOT be seen as people.  Just sayin'.  People keep holding him up as this paragon of moderation and reason, and he just isn't.  That he's not as bad as Meredith or Alrik does not erase the fact that he made his position on mages VERY clear,
and it wasn't all sunshine and roses.

So? Can you demonstrate a way in which Cullen's feelings towards mages; never mind that his feelings are that mages are not people like non-mages which is absolutely true; negativelly impacted the way in which he conducted himself?
Did he not behave in a reasonable matter?

His statement isn't true at all. Mages have different capabilities but that doesn't mean that they're not people in the same way others are. Personhood is a concept about rights and standing, not about "X" is different. And given his attitude that mages are whiners about tranquility - even if we ignore his kill them all attitude in DA:O because of how he was tortured - is clear evidence he's of the different kind of rights view. 

Unlike Thrask, we saw no evidence that Cullen took any action at all to prevent the abuses that were going on in the circle. 

[In Exile]

Sir JK wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

When he participated in the Annulment.

Mind, however, that the only templar in Kirkwall's entire order that knows the Kirkwall circle is innocent is Meredith. This rite may only be quasi-legal and you really have to accept the notion of the rite as neccessary to even begin to think about going along with it, but given the information at hand... can we really condemn Cullen for following his commanding officer's orders?

I know following orders is not a viable excuse and that soldiers should think for themselves from time to time. I know you don't accept any of the templars practises as morally acceptable under any circumstance. But try to put ypurself in his shoes. He has no solid evidence of Meredith having lost it. He has no knowledge of the circles innocence. And if there is one templar in the world that would find the RoA neccessary, it's him.... given his experiences.

What was he supposed to do? Refuse and be exceuted on the spot?

As I recall, Cullen was with Meredith to see the chantrynuked from orbit by Anders. And that's ignoring the fact that you don't need a reason not to be complicit in a massacre. Yes, Cullen may well have been stripped of his rank ad thrown in a cell if he refused, but frankly I don't see how stays am excuse. 

[Iakus]

Silfren wrote...

iakus wrote...

Personally I would love to see templars like Cullen or Evangeline, who can demonstrate the necessity of protecting the mundane world from misused magic while still seeing mages as human beings (or elven beings, as the case may be)

Yeah, well that might work if it weren't for the fact that Cullen flat out declares that mages CANNOT be seen as people.  Just sayin'.  People keep holding him up as this paragon of moderation and reason, and he just isn't.  That he's not as bad as Meredith or Alrik does not erase the fact that he made his position on mages VERY clear, and it wasn't all sunshine and roses.

That was after Uldred tortured him, and turned mages into monsters before his eyes.

Prior to that he was actually a pretty nice guy, who did view mages as peple, even as friends.  The Broken Circle incident severely traumatized him.  I always had the impression that he was struggling with what he saw and was trying to tell himself that "mages aren't people" to try and deal with that.  To put some distance between himself and them so he won't feel that betrayal a second time.  I find him an interesting character (more interesting than in DAO in fact) because he's struggling to figure out what the right thing is.  Balancing his kind nature with his horrific experiences.

By Act 3, Cullen is openly questioning if Meredith might not be losing it.  He backs sparing mages who surrender (yeah they might end up being made Tranquil anyway, but in the meantime, the Chantry might still overrule Meredith's Annullment)  And in the end, opposes Meredith (violently) when she goes after Hawke.

[Iakus]

In Exile wrote...

As I recall, Cullen was with Meredith to see the chantrynuked from orbit by Anders. And that's ignoring the fact that you don't need a reason not to be complicit in a massacre. Yes, Cullen may well have been stripped of his rank ad thrown in a cell if he refused, but frankly I don't see how stays am excuse. 

To be fair to Cullen, everyone but Sebasian ignores the fact that the apostate abomination standing among them confessed to it and to acting alone.

[In Exile]

iakus wrote...

In Exile wrote...

As I recall, Cullen was with Meredith to see the chantrynuked from orbit by Anders. And that's ignoring the fact that you don't need a reason not to be complicit in a massacre. Yes, Cullen may well have been stripped of his rank ad thrown in a cell if he refused, but frankly I don't see how stays am excuse. 

To be fair to Cullen, everyone but Sebasian ignores the fact that the apostate abomination standing among them confessed to it and to acting alone.

Orsino points it out and Meredith blatantly dismiss it. The scene was clear that everyone knew. Meredith just didn't care and her templars sided with her. 

[Sir JK]

In Exile wrote...

As I recall, Cullen was with Meredith to see the chantrynuked from orbit by Anders. And that's ignoring the fact that you don't need a reason not to be complicit in a massacre. Yes, Cullen may well have been stripped of his rank ad thrown in a cell if he refused, but frankly I don't see how stays am excuse. 

He is not. I specifically looked for him last playthrough (finished 3 weeks ago). Only Meredith, 4 bodyguards, Orsino, 4 mages and you, Bethany or Carver, and your team are present. The 4 templars or the 4 mages do not surive based on which side you choose.

So unless you side with the templars. Only Meredith knows her orders are baseless.

But yes, you're correct. Noone needs a reason not to be complicit in a massacre. Like I said, orders are not a valid excuse for anything.

However: In every culture I know of, fictional or otherwise, desertion is generally considered to be absolute worst form of dishonour. Even done for the right reasons, you're never forgiven. Not even by your enemies. You're betraying your culture, your collegues, your friends and your beliefs.

And this is exactly what people... for some reason expect from Cullen. Based on information he's not privy to.

I mean... he's no saint and he's probably more accepting of templar practises than is entirely right (or sane). We could certainly question how much he knew about excesses in the circle, he was second in command after all.

But seriously... asking him to betray his own people on a whim and condemning him when he doesn't? Had he been there or been given a thorough analysis from a objective point of view, then sure! By all means. Condemn away.

But he wasn't...

So I can't but help but to think that condemning him for that bit specifically is kind of... harsh...

Modifié par Sir JK, 20 septembre 2013 - 09:51 .

[Mr.House]

In Exile wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

When he participated in the Annulment.

Mind, however, that the only templar in Kirkwall's entire order that knows the Kirkwall circle is innocent is Meredith. This rite may only be quasi-legal and you really have to accept the notion of the rite as neccessary to even begin to think about going along with it, but given the information at hand... can we really condemn Cullen for following his commanding officer's orders?

I know following orders is not a viable excuse and that soldiers should think for themselves from time to time. I know you don't accept any of the templars practises as morally acceptable under any circumstance. But try to put ypurself in his shoes. He has no solid evidence of Meredith having lost it. He has no knowledge of the circles innocence. And if there is one templar in the world that would find the RoA neccessary, it's him.... given his experiences.

What was he supposed to do? Refuse and be exceuted on the spot?

As I recall, Cullen was with Meredith to see the chantrynuked from orbit by Anders. And that's ignoring the fact that you don't need a reason not to be complicit in a massacre. Yes, Cullen may well have been stripped of his rank ad thrown in a cell if he refused, but frankly I don't see how stays am excuse. 

Nope, he outright says the situation in Ferelden was far worse and the Right did not happen, which Hawke can support, but Meredith ignores him. When some mages surrender he is the first to accept it which Meredith is against, Hawke either supports Cullen or Meredith. Then when Meredith has at last shown to be beyond helpand outright abusing her power, he stripped her of her rank and helped kill her. Should he have stepped up sooner? Of course but remeber, his fear of what Uldred did was still there, but he did at last step out and showed he was not lbind to Meredith. It's also possible his "Mages are not people>" could have changed by DAi, this is why I do want him as a companion or at least have a big role like DA2. DA2 ended him in a very intresting road that I want to see.

Also he was not there when Anders blew up the Chantr so he also did not have the full picture at the time.

Modifié par Mr.House, 20 septembre 2013 - 10:00 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

I completely forgot about cullen, he just blended into the background and I forgot about him most of the time unless he spoke, and than quickly forgot about him again.

I wouldn't mind having the wallflower alistar as a companion. Could be a lot of fun.

EDIT: Evangeline, that was her name. She'd be a good companion to have. If only we could have them both.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 20 septembre 2013 - 10:00 .

[Mr.House]

MasterScribe wrote...

How about Agatha, Evangeline, or Rylock?

A female templar would be a great companion.

Rylock is dead in a warehouse.

[Wulfram]

I'd have more sympathy for Cullen if he didn't turn on Meredith for ordering the death of Mage-supporting Hawke. Because that's a really odd place to draw your line after going along with the annullment.

[Mr.House]

Wulfram wrote...

I'd have more sympathy for Cullen if he didn't turn on Meredith for ordering the death of Mage-supporting Hawke. Because that's a really odd place to draw your line after going along with the annullment.

He wants your body.

[Hellion Rex]

How about Evangeline? I think she could make an interesting companion. Although one could argue that she is technically not a templar any longer.

[Mr.House]

eluvianix wrote...

How about Evangeline? I think she could make an interesting companion. Although one could argue that she is technically not a templar any longer.

Eh she would still have her traning, and could give us the pov of a Templar who grew tired of the Templars abuse of power, not from a mage, but from a templar which could be intresting.

[Ryzaki]

Wulfram wrote...

I'd have more sympathy for Cullen if he didn't turn on Meredith for ordering the death of Mage-supporting Hawke. Because that's a really odd place to draw your line after going along with the annullment.

Edit: Read this wrong it's mage supporting Hawke

In that case I'm guessing it's the straw that breaks the camel's back. He's seen Meredith kill mages that were begging for their lives and he's probably hit his limit. Probably doesn't help if you spared the circle in DAO.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 septembre 2013 - 10:13 .

[Xilizhra]

He is not. I specifically looked for him last playthrough (finished 3 weeks ago). Only Meredith, 4 bodyguards, Orsino, 4 mages and you, Bethany or Carver, and your team are present. The 4 templars or the 4 mages do not surive based on which side you choose.

So unless you side with the templars. Only Meredith knows her orders are baseless.

But yes, you're correct. Noone needs a reason not to be complicit in a massacre. Like I said, orders are not a valid excuse for anything.

However: In every culture I know of, fictional or otherwise, desertion is generally considered to be absolute worst form of dishonour. Even done for the right reasons, you're never forgiven. Not even by your enemies. You're betraying your culture, your collegues, your friends and your beliefs.

And this is exactly what people... for some reason expect from Cullen. Based on information he's not privy to.

I mean... he's no saint and he's probably more accepting of templar practises than is entirely right (or sane). We could certainly question how much he knew about excesses in the circle, he was second in command after all.

But seriously... asking him to betray his own people on a whim and condemning him when he doesn't? Had he been there or been given a thorough analysis from a objective point of view, then sure! By all means. Condemn away.

But he wasn't...

So I can't but help but to think that condemning him for that bit specifically is kind of... harsh...

Well, nowadays, desertion is looked upon as potentially honorable if your orders are bad enough, and Dragon Age was designed with a modern audience in mind. In any case, he could have avoided any of that, even, by relieving Meredith of command and focusing the templars' attentions on the demon attacks throughout the city, which seems like a logical enough choice to me.

[Hellion Rex]

MasterScribe wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

How about Evangeline? I think she could make an interesting companion. Although one could argue that she is technically not a templar any longer.

You can make the argument that no one is a templar any longer.

Even "templars" still loyal to the Chantry are merely associates now, as the Templar Order is defunct.

Touche. You bring up a good point. Where do you draw the line? Is she templar because of her abilities or Chantry/Templar Order affiliation. I would argue that her abilities are what define her as a templar.