935 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Mr.House wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

How about Evangeline? I think she could make an interesting companion. Although one could argue that she is technically not a templar any longer.

Eh she would still have her traning, and could give us the pov of a Templar who grew tired of the Templars abuse of power, not from a mage, but from a templar which could be intresting.

I agree. If I had to choose between her and Cullen, I could just as easily enjoy having her as a party member. Especially if that meant we get to see Rhys.

[Silfren]

iakus wrote...

Silfren wrote...

iakus wrote...

Personally I would love to see templars like Cullen or Evangeline, who can demonstrate the necessity of protecting the mundane world from misused magic while still seeing mages as human beings (or elven beings, as the case may be)

Yeah, well that might work if it weren't for the fact that Cullen flat out declares that mages CANNOT be seen as people.  Just sayin'.  People keep holding him up as this paragon of moderation and reason, and he just isn't.  That he's not as bad as Meredith or Alrik does not erase the fact that he made his position on mages VERY clear, and it wasn't all sunshine and roses.

That was after Uldred tortured him, and turned mages into monsters before his eyes.

Prior to that he was actually a pretty nice guy, who did view mages as peple, even as friends.  The Broken Circle incident severely traumatized him.  I always had the impression that he was struggling with what he saw and was trying to tell himself that "mages aren't people" to try and deal with that.  To put some distance between himself and them so he won't feel that betrayal a second time.  I find him an interesting character (more interesting than in DAO in fact) because he's struggling to figure out what the right thing is.  Balancing his kind nature with his horrific experiences.

By Act 3, Cullen is openly questioning if Meredith might not be losing it.  He backs sparing mages who surrender (yeah they might end up being made Tranquil anyway, but in the meantime, the Chantry might still overrule Meredith's Annullment)  And in the end, opposes Meredith (violently) when she goes after Hawke.

I'm aware of where Cullen's anti-mage sentiment comes from.  Thing is, though, it's irrelevant. The experience explains why he feels the way he does, but it has no bearing on whether his views are morally sound or that a black/white view of all mages is justified. 

I can easily believe that a man could start out as an idealistic mage sympathizer, undergo a trauma that twists him into an anti-mage fanatic, and to eventually come back around to being moderate and balanced in his views after some healing.  That, however, is not what we see in Cullen's case.  And I DO expect to see it.  I certainly am not going to say that the character arc we see in DA2 is in any way believable.

Cullen's opinion of Meredith is separate from his perspective on mages.  It makes sense that in observing his Knight Commander, he would be able to see her losing herself slowly (or not so slowly) to madness, but it doesn't follow that simply because he can see that she's going batsh*t right before his eyes, that his view on mages is going to suddenly change as well. 

If that's going to happen, that Cullen is going to become less fanatically anti-mage, then fine--and I would welcome this kind of evolution in his character.  But I don't buy that simply because Cullen decided to challenge Meredith's rule and take up arms against her, that his hatred and suspicion of mages is suddenly no longer a thing.  You don't see that, ever: there's his angry tirade at the end of the Broken Circle quest in Origins, and in DA2, early in the game, he says bluntly that mages are not people, and he even suggests that the Tranquil Solutuion might not have been such a terrible idea--and his only concession to mages is to wonder if maybe they need to be "re-educated" by the Chantry as to why they have to be oppressed and imprisoned (which is one of the creepiest things he says, in my view)...but what you DON'T see, ever, is any hint of these views evolving as the game progresses. 

So at the end...you see him recognizing that his Knight Commander has gone crazy, but there's nothing to indicate that he is suddenly moderate toward mages, or even any reason why he would have started being moderate toward them. 

[Adela]

Silfren wrote...


So at the end...you see him recognizing that his Knight Commander has gone crazy, but there's nothing to indicate that he is suddenly moderate toward mages, or even any reason why he would have started being moderate toward them. 

Really now? How about when he spares those 3 mages?

[AresKeith]

eluvianix wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

How about Evangeline? I think she could make an interesting companion. Although one could argue that she is technically not a templar any longer.

Eh she would still have her traning, and could give us the pov of a Templar who grew tired of the Templars abuse of power, not from a mage, but from a templar which could be intresting.

I agree. If I had to choose between her and Cullen, I could just as easily enjoy having her as a party member. Especially if that meant we get to see Rhys.

We would most likely see Rhys and Evangeline anyway, because they played a part in the Mage/Templar war

Atleast I'm hoping they'll show up

[Hellion Rex]

MasterScribe wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

How about Evangeline? I think she could make an interesting companion. Although one could argue that she is technically not a templar any longer.

You can make the argument that no one is a templar any longer.

Even "templars" still loyal to the Chantry are merely associates now, as the Templar Order is defunct.

Touche. You bring up a good point. Where do you draw the line? Is she templar because of her abilities or Chantry/Templar Order affiliation. I would argue that her abilities are what define her as a templar.

Okay, fair enough.

But the OP wants "an actual currently in-service templar." Since the templars are no longer organized, that suggestion is essentially impossible to follow through with, unless we extend our definition to any person with anti-magic abilities (even a dwarf).

Oh. Oops. I didn't even read the OP. I just saw that this thread had grown a lot and tried to add in my two cents. But yes, I do agree that having an in service templar would be nearly impossible.

[Hellion Rex]

AresKeith wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

How about Evangeline? I think she could make an interesting companion. Although one could argue that she is technically not a templar any longer.

Eh she would still have her traning, and could give us the pov of a Templar who grew tired of the Templars abuse of power, not from a mage, but from a templar which could be intresting.

I agree. If I had to choose between her and Cullen, I could just as easily enjoy having her as a party member. Especially if that meant we get to see Rhys.

We would most likely see Rhys and Evangeline anyway, because they played a part in the Mage/Templar war

Atleast I'm hoping they'll show up

They had such a large part in Asunder that I hope we can see their story continued.

[Xilizhra]

ag99 wrote...

Silfren wrote...


So at the end...you see him recognizing that his Knight Commander has gone crazy, but there's nothing to indicate that he is suddenly moderate toward mages, or even any reason why he would have started being moderate toward them. 

Really now? How about when he spares those 3 mages?

They'll be made Tranquil later on, it means nothing.

[Adela]

Xilizhra wrote...

ag99 wrote...

Silfren wrote...


So at the end...you see him recognizing that his Knight Commander has gone crazy, but there's nothing to indicate that he is suddenly moderate toward mages, or even any reason why he would have started being moderate toward them. 

Really now? How about when he spares those 3 mages?

They'll be made Tranquil later on, it means nothing.

Whose to say what has  become of them? After all the stuff thats happen to Meredith  apperantly everyone rebelled  mages and templars alike

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Yeah, well that might work if it weren't for the fact that Cullen flat out declares that mages CANNOT be seen as people.  Just sayin'.  People keep holding him up as this paragon of moderation and reason, and he just isn't.  That he's not as bad as Meredith or Alrik does not erase the fact that he made his position on mages VERY clear,
and it wasn't all sunshine and roses.

So? Can you demonstrate a way in which Cullen's feelings towards mages; never mind that his feelings are that mages are not people like non-mages which is absolutely true; negativelly impacted the way in which he conducted himself?
Did he not behave in a reasonable matter?

What Cullen says is that you can't think of mages as people.  Maybe you find it a harmless statement, but for those of us living in the real world, it's another way of saying that mages lack personhood, that they are subhuman.

I don't think that Cullen's a stellar example of a templar in the way he conducts himself, no.  I already mentioned a few things--thinking of mages as not being people, his opinion that mages just need to be "re-educated" (again, creepy on SO many levels).  If what you're asking for is for me to find examples of Cullen behaving like Alrik or another corrupt Templar, that's too bad.  I'm aware that Cullen isn't evil like one of those men.  But being better than them doesn't make him good.  I don't have to have concrete examples of Cullen doing horrific things to consider that his general behavior is something less than reasonable.  I only have to point out that he has completely forgotten that his job isn't just about imprisoning mages lest they hurt someone, but that he's also required to protect mages themselves.  You can't do that if you actually believe that mages aren't people.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

ag99 wrote...

Silfren wrote...


So at the end...you see him recognizing that his Knight Commander has gone crazy, but there's nothing to indicate that he is suddenly moderate toward mages, or even any reason why he would have started being moderate toward them. 

Really now? How about when he spares those 3 mages?

They'll be made Tranquil later on, it means nothing.

Did he actually say that? Or was it actually alluded to in any way?

[Wulfram]

Silfren wrote...

What Cullen says is that you can't think of mages as people. 

I didn't take it that Cullen was saying that Mages aren't people, but that they're a different sort of person from you and me.  Still not exactly a great sentiment, of course.

"Mages aren't people like you and me" rather than "Mages aren't people, like you and me"

Modifié par Wulfram, 20 septembre 2013 - 10:37 .

[Ryzaki]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

ag99 wrote...

Silfren wrote...


So at the end...you see him recognizing that his Knight Commander has gone crazy, but there's nothing to indicate that he is suddenly moderate toward mages, or even any reason why he would have started being moderate toward them. 

Really now? How about when he spares those 3 mages?

They'll be made Tranquil later on, it means nothing.

Did he actually say that? Or was it actually alluded to in any way?

No.

This is simply guessed from Gaider's comment about what happens in a normal circle during a normal rite of annulment. However. One would assume such a thing is up to the Knight Commander's discretion and thus why it's possible it's not a fact that those mages were made tranquil. Especially not seeing as this was not a normal rite of annullment anyway.

Edit: Gaider's post on the matter

David Gaider wrote...

The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked,
the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being
brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible.
It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the
order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that
point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage...
something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus
capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So
therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any
mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they
could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 septembre 2013 - 10:42 .

[Hellion Rex]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

How about Evangeline? I think she could make an interesting companion. Although one could argue that she is technically not a templar any longer.

You can make the argument that no one is a templar any longer.

Even "templars" still loyal to the Chantry are merely associates now, as the Templar Order is defunct.

Touche. You bring up a good point. Where do you draw the line? Is she templar because of her abilities or Chantry/Templar Order affiliation. I would argue that her abilities are what define her as a templar.

In this case, Alistair was a templar even though he explicitly denies that he is or wanted to be. 

You bring up a good point as well. It's a bit of a gray area.

[Silfren]

ag99 wrote...

Silfren wrote...


So at the end...you see him recognizing that his Knight Commander has gone crazy, but there's nothing to indicate that he is suddenly moderate toward mages, or even any reason why he would have started being moderate toward them. 

Really now? How about when he spares those 3 mages?

I wondered if someone was going to bring this up like it somehow invalidated my point and totally explained
everything.  Sorry, but it doesn't.  It's still an out-of-left-field thing for Cullen to do because we've not been shown anything about his character that would explain why he would depart from his previous stance on mages.  My point is that we do not see any evolution in his character--for him to suddenly behave this way is inconsistent.

The Right of Annulment is an all-or-nothing deal.  The very point of it is that the Circle has been declared utterly irredeemable and must be wiped out entirely, down to the last man, woman, and child.  If Cullen agreed to the Annulment in the first place, why would he suddenly balk at carrying it out?  I'd expect a man who willingly spared mages to have put up a serious argument against killing them in the first place. 

Modifié par Silfren, 20 septembre 2013 - 10:40 .

[Mr.House]

Why do people keep using that quote from Cullen? Cullen said that in act 1 when his hatred for mages was at it's peak and he was trying to undercover a big blood mage group. How Cullen is at the end of DA2 and how he was in act 1 are not the same.

[Silfren]

MasterScribe wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

How about Evangeline? I think she could make an interesting companion. Although one could argue that she is technically not a templar any longer.

You can make the argument that no one is a templar any longer.

Even "templars" still loyal to the Chantry are merely associates now, as the Templar Order is defunct.

Touche. You bring up a good point. Where do you draw the line? Is she templar because of her abilities or Chantry/Templar Order affiliation. I would argue that her abilities are what define her as a templar.

Okay, fair enough.

But the OP wants "an actual currently in-service templar." Since the templars are no longer organized, that suggestion is essentially impossible to follow through with, unless we extend our definition to any person with anti-magic abilities (even a dwarf).

Says who?  Lambert did NOT dissolve the templar order; he merely declared it free of the Chantry.  Hardly means that they no longer exist as an organization.

But beyond that, you can bet that many templars would remain loyal.  It's a safe venture, I think, that the Chantry would have Loyalist Templars, and Lambert would have his Separatist ones.  I think it would be easy enough to have an "actual, currently in-service" Templar.  More likely to be a Chantry one, given that Lambert's faction has gone rogue, but still.

[Ryzaki]

MasterScribe wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

What I mean is someone who currently views themselves as being a templar and/or upholding the templar ideal and was formally part of the order at some point.  Different templars are going to have different opinions of precisely what "being a templar" means given the chaos of the situation. 

"Templar ideal" is subjective, as well. I don't want a murderous lunatic in my group.

*looks at DAO, DAA and DA2 companions particularly at Anders and Velenna*

...that ship sailed a long time ago.

[Mr.House]

MasterScribe wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

What I mean is someone who currently views themselves as being a templar and/or upholding the templar ideal and was formally part of the order at some point.  Different templars are going to have different opinions of precisely what "being a templar" means given the chaos of the situation. 

"Templar ideal" is subjective, as well. I don't want a murderous lunatic in my group.

You did not finish DA2 did you?

[berelinde]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

ag99 wrote...

Silfren wrote...


So at the end...you see him recognizing that his Knight Commander has gone crazy, but there's nothing to indicate that he is suddenly moderate toward mages, or even any reason why he would have started being moderate toward them. 

Really now? How about when he spares those 3 mages?

They'll be made Tranquil later on, it means nothing.

Did he actually say that? Or was it actually alluded to in any way?

Nope, he never said anything of the sort. It's speculation.

Cullen is a flawed individual (who isn't?), but he *learns* from his experiences. The trauma he suffered in Ferelden taught him to distrust mages. The abuses of his templar cohorts has taught him to distrust anyone who seeks power for its own sake, even templars. In defying Meredith, he says that he defended her against the likes of Thrask and Emeric because he believed that he was doing the Maker's work, but he now sees the error of his assumptions.

He isn't in it because he likes lording over mages. He's trying to fight the darkness.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

ag99 wrote...

Silfren wrote...


So at the end...you see him recognizing that his Knight Commander has gone crazy, but there's nothing to indicate that he is suddenly moderate toward mages, or even any reason why he would have started being moderate toward them. 

Really now? How about when he spares those 3 mages?

They'll be made Tranquil later on, it means nothing.

Did he actually say that? Or was it actually alluded to in any way?

I think it was something Gaider said, actually.  It's been mentioned a few times in these forums.  Apparently Gaider was saying that mages who tried to surrender during an Annulment could only survive by submitting to Tranquility?

Modifié par Silfren, 20 septembre 2013 - 10:50 .