935 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

honestly Anders should have blown up the Gallows, not the Chantry

[Silfren]

ag99 wrote...

Silfren wrote...



Yeah, uh, no.  I like Cullen just fine, he's one of my favorite characters.  I just think he was written very poorly at the end of DA2.   But sorry, the fact that I don't think he's a got a healthy view of mages or that I think he's not an example of what a templar should be does not mean I'm "trying to find every little flaw" or to make him "a super bad guy."   

I'm not sure you've even bothered paying attention to my posts about Cullen.  I've not once been hating on the character.  I've mentioned that he's not a moderate, and explained my reasons for thinking this.  From there I've complained about his poorly handled character arc.  It was never about me b*tching about how evil Cullen is, but about how his character development was lacking and didn't make sense to me.

Ah very well then, my bad I've misunderstood  what you were saying, but to be somewhat fair the game did had only one year in development and a lot of things weren't all that great.
So I guess maybe they didn't had enough time to develop  an NPC  that much into detail , as appose to an actual companion who should have more content then an NPC  and perhaps that may explain the  sudden change of heart at the end  without a smooth transition in between as to how he got there.

But if he will be in DAI I hope this time they will go  more in depth  with his character then in DAO and DA2

You didn't misunderstand, you disregarded some posts and completely mis-read others, if you think I just came into this thread and started bashing Cullen.  I should be able to post my disagreement with the idea that Cullen is a moderate templar and subsequen explanations as to why I think this, without you dismissing it all as "OMG YOU JUST HATE CULLEN FOR NO GOOD REASON CUZ YOU DON'T GET THAT NOBODY'S PERFECT," even if it were true that I did hate the character. 

Beyond that, I'm well aware, as is EVERYONE, that DA2 had a short development time and that this is the go-to excuse for it's shortcomings.  Why you think I'm uninformed on this detail is a mystery.  

[Hellion Rex]

Steelcan wrote...

honestly Anders should have blown up the Gallows, not the Chantry

Maybe not with the mages inside. Or the templars. That would probably have been a lot worse than what he actually did.

[Steelcan]

eluvianix wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

honestly Anders should have blown up the Gallows, not the Chantry

Maybe not with the mages inside. Or the templars. That would probably have been a lot worse than what he actually did.

Martyrs

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe. He's seen the worst of both sides of the mage-templar conflict. But I still put him well in front of Anders

Anders is miles better. He only ever targeted one civilian, who was responsible for numerous atrocities herself. In addition to having his mind fogged by a spirit, whereas Cullen was always in control of himself.

We including abominations in that number?

We're including abominations who became such due to templar pressure, yes.

If oyu really think Anders bomb only killed the Grand Cleric then you are naive. Also because of his actions every mage was forced to fight for their life, even if they did not want to thus their blood is on Anders because Anders knew Meredith would call for the Right.

So no, Anders is no miles better, Anders is a blight.

[Hellion Rex]

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe. He's seen the worst of both sides of the mage-templar conflict. But I still put him well in front of Anders

Anders is miles better. He only ever targeted one civilian, who was responsible for numerous atrocities herself. In addition to having his mind fogged by a spirit, whereas Cullen was always in control of himself.

We including abominations in that number?

We're including abominations who became such due to templar pressure, yes.

If oyu really think Anders bomb only killed the Grand Cleric then you are naive. Also because of his actions every mage was forced to fight for their life, even if they did not want to thus their blood is on Anders because Anders knew Meredith would call for the Right.

So no, Anders is no miles better, Anders is a blight.

I do not disagree with you on much of this. His message was understandable: You have to pick a side, no more middle ground. But there was no way to justify that loss of life, no matter how good the intentions. His message was right, but he went about it in clearly the wrong way.

[Chanda]

Both sides escalated into absurd stupidity. Mages with their "Oh, you're afraid we'll do blood magic? I'll show you blood magic!" and the templars with "OH no, they're doing blood magic! Now we really have to kill them!" Orsino went stupid, Meredith went nuts because of the idol but might have gone that far on her own, in time. And Anders made the whole thing worse by blowing up the Chantry.

Yet everyone is pointing fingers at Cullen. Poor guy.

[jtav]

And even then, of course there's a middle ground in reforming the Circles and getting the Seekers to do their jobs and discharge men like Alrik. It does not have to be either complete freedom or Kirkwall.

[Mr.House]

I disagree. His message was not  right. If he wanted to start the war then he should have bombed the Templar area int he Gallows, not bombing a public place filled with alot of innocent people including the surrounding people in High Town.

His action led to Meredith being able to do the Right and knew alot of mages would die, mages that might not even want it. He only cared about himself, not mages, if he did he would have made sure all mages wanted freedom.

Modifié par Mr.House, 21 septembre 2013 - 12:43 .

[Hellion Rex]

Mr.House wrote...

I disagree. His message was not  right. If he wanted to start the war then he should have bombed the Templar area int he Gallows, not bombing a public place filled with alot of innocent people including the surrounding people in High Town.

His action led to Meredith being able to do the Right and knew alot of mages would die, mages that might not even want it. He only cared about himself, not mages, if he did he would have made sure all mages wanted freedom.

We do not have to agree on the message. I was merely saying that regardless of the message, there is no justifying that murder of people.

[Hellion Rex]

Chanda wrote...

Both sides escalated into absurd stupidity. Mages with their "Oh, you're afraid we'll do blood magic? I'll show you blood magic!" and the templars with "OH no, they're doing blood magic! Now we really have to kill them!" Orsino went stupid, Meredith went nuts because of the idol but might have gone that far on her own, in time. And Anders made the whole thing worse by blowing up the Chantry.

Yet everyone is pointing fingers at Cullen. Poor guy.

Actually, a lot of people are saying he is a voice of moderation. I don't get why you feel the need to defend him all of the sudden.

[AresKeith]

jtav wrote...

And even then, of course there's a middle ground in reforming the Circles and getting the Seekers to do their jobs and discharge men like Alrik. It does not have to be either complete freedom or Kirkwall.

^^^

[LobselVith8]

iakus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Elthina may have deserved to be held responsible for not taking her authority in hand at a critical time, but she didn't deserve to die.

And neither did everyone else that was in the chantry at the time.  Be they priests, lay brothers and sisters, men, women, and children there on business or just praying.

As Sebastian pointed out, he could have been in there himself if he hadn't been hanging with Hawke at the time.

It seemed to be closed to the public at night, as we see when Hawke enters the Kirkwall Chantry after hours during the prior Acts (as early as Act I, when we initially help Anders and Isabela). The scene does show templars and members of the Kirkwall Chantry with Elthina when it's destroyed.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 septembre 2013 - 12:53 .

[Ryzaki]

AresKeith wrote...

jtav wrote...

And even then, of course there's a middle ground in reforming the Circles and getting the Seekers to do their jobs and discharge men like Alrik. It does not have to be either complete freedom or Kirkwall.

^^^

Agreed. I will never understand why it's all or bust for some people.

[Mr.House]

Ryzaki wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

jtav wrote...

And even then, of course there's a middle ground in reforming the Circles and getting the Seekers to do their jobs and discharge men like Alrik. It does not have to be either complete freedom or Kirkwall.

^^^

Agreed. I will never understand why it's all or bust for some people.

I hope for a middle path but knowing Bioware I just don't expect it, would love to be wrong though.

[Steelcan]

middle path is make everyone a mage

[Mr.House]

Steelcan wrote...

middle path is make everyone a mage

<_<

[AresKeith]

Mr.House wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

jtav wrote...

And even then, of course there's a middle ground in reforming the Circles and getting the Seekers to do their jobs and discharge men like Alrik. It does not have to be either complete freedom or Kirkwall.

^^^

Agreed. I will never understand why it's all or bust for some people.

I hope for a middle path but knowing Bioware I just don't expect it, would love to be wrong though.

I don't see why they wouldn't since they give you a pro-Circle companion, plus Wynne sorta gave the idea too

[Nightwriter]

iakus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Elthina may have deserved to be held responsible for not taking her authority in hand at a critical time, but she didn't deserve to die.

And neither did everyone else that was in the chantry at the time.  Be they priests, lay brothers and sisters, men, women, and children there on business or just praying.

As Sebastian pointed out, he could have been in there himself if he hadn't been hanging with Hawke at the time.

I usually saw two common arguments from the opposite side:

1. Only Elthina and the handful of templars you see in the brief cutscene were actually in the Chantry.

2. The Chantry is a military outpost. These claims that it is some kind of civilian structure -- which encompasses the arguments that the Chantry is an edifice of charity, aid for the poor, shelter, and generally a force of peace or order -- are false. It is the seat of the power that is oppressing mages and that's that.

I generally shrug at 1 (it's true the cutscene shows only Elthina and templars, but it's really hard to believe the place is empty of all people but them) and disagree with 2.

[Chanda]

eluvianix wrote...

Chanda wrote...

Both sides escalated into absurd stupidity. Mages with their "Oh, you're afraid we'll do blood magic? I'll show you blood magic!" and the templars with "OH no, they're doing blood magic! Now we really have to kill them!" Orsino went stupid, Meredith went nuts because of the idol but might have gone that far on her own, in time. And Anders made the whole thing worse by blowing up the Chantry.

Yet everyone is pointing fingers at Cullen. Poor guy.

Actually, a lot of people are saying he is a voice of moderation. I don't get why you feel the need to defend him all of the sudden.

A lot of people are blaming him for not standing up to defend the lives of the mages sooner, in a situation that wasn't his fault. That's why.

[Hellion Rex]

Steelcan wrote...

middle path is make everyone a mage

Or, we could be headed towards the reverse...

[Hellion Rex]

Chanda wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Chanda wrote...

Both sides escalated into absurd stupidity. Mages with their "Oh, you're afraid we'll do blood magic? I'll show you blood magic!" and the templars with "OH no, they're doing blood magic! Now we really have to kill them!" Orsino went stupid, Meredith went nuts because of the idol but might have gone that far on her own, in time. And Anders made the whole thing worse by blowing up the Chantry.

Yet everyone is pointing fingers at Cullen. Poor guy.

Actually, a lot of people are saying he is a voice of moderation. I don't get why you feel the need to defend him all of the sudden.

A lot of people are blaming him for not standing up to defend the lives of the mages sooner, in a situation that wasn't his fault. That's why.

Oh, on that I agree.