935 réponses à ce sujet

[Eternal Phoenix]

greengoron89 wrote...

Enough with the Templars. We had two Templar companions already.

lolwot? lolwut? wutlol?

• You mean Alistair, a templar apprentice (who never even finished his templar training) who became a Grey Warden?
• You mean Carver, a guy who only pops up during the last ten minutes as the "templar companion" providing he didn't join the Grey Wardens or die? "He was in the DLC..." for those who brought it. Yes.

We're constantly bombared with all these stupid ugly blood mages and anti-circle ****s. One templar won't kill anyone. We need one for balance so we finally have the templar view on our side. Alistair (not being a fully trained templar) didn't count and even his views on magic weren't like those of a templar.

We've needed this since Origins and so I support.

My ideal party:

The Seeker, Templar, Grey Warden.

A true paladin party of virtue.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 21 septembre 2013 - 02:10 .

[Chanda]

Xilizhra wrote...

How does he contribute?

By helping to Annul the Circle.

Ah so by that logic if one mage resorts to blood magic then that must mean all mages are to blame, that everyone of them will resort to blood magic no?

No.

I never saw him slaughter a single mage. I saw other Templars fighting mages, but never him. So therefore, he didn't contribute.

[Xilizhra]

Chanda wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How does he contribute?

By helping to Annul the Circle.

Ah so by that logic if one mage resorts to blood magic then that must mean all mages are to blame, that everyone of them will resort to blood magic no?

No.

I never saw him slaughter a single mage. I saw other Templars fighting mages, but never him. So therefore, he didn't contribute.

He certainly tried to imprison mages who were destined to be Tranquil onscreen, which is approximately as bad, and given that no one said anything about his hanging back and doing nothing at all, Occam's razor points to his contribution.

[Adela]

Xilizhra wrote...

How does he contribute?

By helping to Annul the Circle.

Ah so by that logic if one mage resorts to blood magic then that must mean all mages are to blame, that everyone of them will resort to blood magic no?

No.

Ah ok so I guess Grace wasn't to blame for contributing   with that blood mage's ritual, and later on took Hawke's sister/brother as a hostage

[Xilizhra]

ag99 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How does he contribute?

By helping to Annul the Circle.

Ah so by that logic if one mage resorts to blood magic then that must mean all mages are to blame, that everyone of them will resort to blood magic no?

No.

Ah ok so I guess Grace wasn't to blame for contributing   with that blood mage's ritual, and later on took Hawke's sister/brother as a hostage

Blood magic isn't inherently evil to begin with, so your premise needs work.

[In Exile]

Chanda wrote...
I never saw him slaughter a single mage. I saw other Templars fighting mages, but never him. So therefore, he didn't contribute. 

Based on DG's post, he's either directly caused the future execution of three mages, or even worse, condemned them to be tranquil. 

And the idea that Cullen just sat at the sidelines while the entire ROA was going on is completely absurd. 

[Chanda]

Xilizhra wrote...

Chanda wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How does he contribute?

By helping to Annul the Circle.

Ah so by that logic if one mage resorts to blood magic then that must mean all mages are to blame, that everyone of them will resort to blood magic no?

No.

I never saw him slaughter a single mage. I saw other Templars fighting mages, but never him. So therefore, he didn't contribute.

He certainly tried to imprison mages who were destined to be Tranquil onscreen, which is approximately as bad, and given that no one said anything about his hanging back and doing nothing at all, Occam's razor points to his contribution.

I think you are a bit confused. No one said anything about making those mages tranquil. If you have proof of otherwise, please post it. Here's my proof to back up what I'm saying:

[Chanda]

In Exile wrote...

Chanda wrote...
I never saw him slaughter a single mage. I saw other Templars fighting mages, but never him. So therefore, he didn't contribute. 

Based on DG's post, he's either directly caused the future execution of three mages, or even worse, condemned them to be tranquil. 

And the idea that Cullen just sat at the sidelines while the entire ROA was going on is completely absurd. 

What post? Show it to me. From what I saw, Cullen saved their lives.

[In Exile]

Chanda wrote...
What post? Show it to me. From what I saw, Cullen saved their lives.

See below (emphasis added). DG makes it clear that not killing all the mages is a ludicrious idea that he entertains as possible but, from the context and phrasing, obviously sees as a very rare and unlikely outcome to what is a straightforward order to massacre everyone.

David Gaider wrote...

The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible. It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus  capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright.

Modifié par In Exile, 21 septembre 2013 - 02:32 .

[Adela]

Xilizhra wrote...

ag99 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How does he contribute?

By helping to Annul the Circle.

Ah so by that logic if one mage resorts to blood magic then that must mean all mages are to blame, that everyone of them will resort to blood magic no?

No.

Ah ok so I guess Grace wasn't to blame for contributing   with that blood mage's ritual, and later on took Hawke's sister/brother as a hostage

Blood magic isn't inherently evil to begin with, so your premise needs work.

really?

blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world.



http://dragonage.wik...orbidden_School

[Fallstar]

ag99 wrote...
really?

blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world.



http://dragonage.wik...orbidden_School

As does the school of spirit, which Anders uses to summon a pair of hunger demons in Legacy. 

And the school of entropy is all about mass mind control, so precisely what is it that makes you think blood magic is inherently more evil than mana based magic?

[Chanda]

In Exile wrote...

Chanda wrote...
What post? Show it to me. From what I saw, Cullen saved their lives.

See below (emphasis added). DG makes it clear that not killing all the mages is a ludicrious idea that he entertains as possible but, from the context and phrasing, obviously sees as a very rare and unlikely outcome to what is a straightforward order to massacre everyone.

David Gaider wrote...

The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible. It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus  capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright.

So it's basically speculation based on what a Dev said could happen, instead of facts that actually happened in the game. Cullen believed the mages were innocent, or else he wouldn't have stood up to Meredith for them. Why would he agree to make them Tranquil if they didn't need to be? Especially after Meredith was gone and he was next in charge.

for reference.

[In Exile]

Chanda wrote...
So it's basically speculation based on what a Dev said could happen, instead of facts that actually happened in the game.

No. DG - the leader writer of the series, and the person who created much of this lore - said that there are two options to an ROA: (i) everyone dies and (ii) very rarely, some are made tranquil. This is a dichomy. There is no middle ground. There is no suggestion that captured mages are "saved".

Cullen believed the mages were innocent, or else he wouldn't have stood up to Meredith for them.

I would revisit the definition of speculation, if I were in you. You suspect Cullen believed this, since we have no proof. We have clear authority that even if he did believe they were innocent, he would (i) only be potentially saving them from execution and (ii) would be making them tranquil, something he is on record as being OK with.

Why would he agree to make them Tranquil if they didn't need to be? Especially after Meredith was gone and he was next in charge.

Because that is his obligation under the ROA? Because he's absolutely pro-tranquility?

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Tranquilizing mages isn't inherently evil either.

[Fallstar]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Tranquilizing mages isn't inherently evil either.

In both cases where a tranquil mage has been temporarily restored to a normal state, they have begged for death rather than return to the tranquil state.

Human beings like living. It would take extreme torture to come close to making someone beg for death - evidently mere 'evil' isn't a strong enough word to describe those who tranquilize mages.

[In Exile]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Tranquilizing mages isn't inherently evil either.

Forcibly lobotomizing someone is pretty evil. It's the same violation of personal integrity that mind control is (and we can distinguish between blood magic - which is a category name for a whole lot of powers - and mind control, which is clearly pretty evil). 

[Dr. Doctor]

Maybe a older, veteran Templar from the days when the Order was more focused on combating actual renegade apostates and blood mages than exerting their authority on loyal members of the Circle.

[Sister Goldring]

I would suggest that Cullen relieving Meredith of her command at the end (and then her going crazy lyrium monster on them) may cast some doubt on the legitimacy of her Annulment of the Kirkwall Circle and would provide the opportunity for a reasonably minded Knight Captin to re-examine the fate of surrendered mages. I don't think the issue is a clear cut as the developers quote suggests in the situation it is being applied to.

[Chanda]

In Exile wrote...

Chanda wrote...
So it's basically speculation based on what a Dev said could happen, instead of facts that actually happened in the game.

No. DG - the leader writer of the series, and the person who created much of this lore - said that there are two options to an ROA: (i) everyone dies and (ii) very rarely, some are made tranquil. This is a dichomy. There is no middle ground. There is no suggestion that captured mages are "saved".

Cullen believed the mages were innocent, or else he wouldn't have stood up to Meredith for them.

I would revisit the definition of speculation, if I were in you. You suspect Cullen believed this, since we have no proof. We have clear authority that even if he did believe they were innocent, he would (i) only be potentially saving them from execution and (ii) would be making them tranquil, something he is on record as being OK with.

Why would he agree to make them Tranquil if they didn't need to be? Especially after Meredith was gone and he was next in charge.

Because that is his obligation under the ROA? Because he's absolutely pro-tranquility?

Until David Gaider struts in here and confirms that those mages were slaughtered or made Tranquil by Cullen, I refuse to blame Cullen for it. Hawke said to spare them, he told his lower-ranked Templars to listen to the Champion.

Now if Hawke said to do it Meredith's way, then that's on Hawke's head, not Cullen's. He did stand up for them, either way.

[Iakus]

Chanda wrote...

So it's basically speculation based on what a Dev said could happen, instead of facts that actually happened in the game. Cullen believed the mages were innocent, or else he wouldn't have stood up to Meredith for them. Why would he agree to make them Tranquil if they didn't need to be? Especially after Meredith was gone and he was next in charge.

for reference.

"The Rite has always been a last resort, when every mage involved was beyond salvaton.  The situation was far more dire in Ferelden's Circle, and yet many mages were saved.  We could still do as much here"

That monster! 

later:

Hawke:  Is there any way to tell if they are blood mages?
Meredith:  There is not.
Cullen:  But they have not resorted to it, even to save their own livees.  Perhaps if we watched them carefully...
Meredith And if they hope to escape by playing innocent?  Will you accept that responisbility, Cullen?
Cullen:  Yes.  I believe that is what being a Templar is all about

The fiend! 

Modifié par iakus, 21 septembre 2013 - 03:20 .

[In Exile]

Chanda wrote...
Until David Gaider struts in here and confirms that those mages were slaughtered or made Tranquil by Cullen, I refuse to blame Cullen for it. Hawke said to spare them, he told his lower-ranked Templars to listen to the Champion.

Now if Hawke said to do it Meredith's way, then that's on Hawke's head, not Cullen's. He did stand up for them, either way.

Again, if the outcome is tranquility, they weren't spared. If anything, death would have been the mercy. 

But yes, if nothing less than DG specifically applying the general rule that he made very clear in that previous post will satisfy you, then I won't be able to offer you that. 

[Adela]

DuskWarden wrote...


As does the school of spirit, which Anders uses to summon a pair of hunger demons in Legacy. 

And the school of entropy is all about mass mind control, so precisely what is it that makes you think blood magic is inherently more evil than mana based magic?

Well according to DAO from what I understood the reckless use of blood magic eventually led to the blackening of the the Golden City, the creation of the  darkspawn, and the First Blight

[Fallstar]

ag99 wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...


As does the school of spirit, which Anders uses to summon a pair of hunger demons in Legacy. 

And the school of entropy is all about mass mind control, so precisely what is it that makes you think blood magic is inherently more evil than mana based magic?

Well according to DAO from what I understood the reckless use of blood magic eventually led to the blackening of the the Golden City, the creation of the  darkspawn, and the First Blight

According to a chantry source in DAO, don't you mean. One whose power is dependent on people believing those things  

Corypheus's words in Legacy tell us that the Chantry version of events about the Golden city are wrong. The only question is how much of what they say is wrong.

[In Exile]

DuskWarden wrote...

Corypheus's words in Legacy tell us that the Chantry version of events about the Golden city are wrong. The only question is how much of what they say is wrong.

Corypheus confirms that the mages assaulted the Golden City just like the Chantry says. What's suggested to be wrong is the idea that there was a Maker that tainted them for it... but the implication of his speech is that there was something tainted there. And Corypheus, a magister, did return as a darkspawn. So he was clearly twisted as part of the process. 

The idea that there was a Maker that somehow punished people for invading paradise is clearly wrong... but it seems that Corypheus supports the idea that the magisters done goofed in tearing open the fade. 

[Plaintiff]

ag99 wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...


As does the school of spirit, which Anders uses to summon a pair of hunger demons in Legacy. 

And the school of entropy is all about mass mind control, so precisely what is it that makes you think blood magic is inherently more evil than mana based magic?

Well according to DAO from what I understood the reckless use of blood magic eventually led to the blackening of the the Golden City, the creation of the  darkspawn, and the First Blight

If a church says it, it must be true!