935 réponses à ce sujet

[RazorrX]

Technically, The Right of Annulment was not fully sanctioned by the Chantry. Even the Ferelden Circle was waiting on approval for the ROA. The mages in Kirkwall *could* have been spared by bringing into question the legality of the ROA based upon Merideth being a fruit bat. Cullen *could* have spared many more than just 3 and they may have remained non Tranquil.

The fact is, no one knows because we were not told one way or the other in game.

[wolfhowwl]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Tranquilizing mages isn't inherently evil either.

If turning over Anders to the Templars to be made tranquil was an option in DA2 it would be well deserved.

As for the Chantry's dogma, evidence in-game supports that Tevinter mages, out of powerlust, did try to gain entrance to the Golden City and came back as darkspawn.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 21 septembre 2013 - 03:39 .

[Nem-sis]

My mundane, pro-mage Hawke disagreed with Cullen in almost every issue, as I'am against everything the Templar order stands for. However, after he calls off his army after the death of Meredith and allows myself and my apostate associates to simply walk away.... I don't think I could have brought myself to stick a dagger in his spine if given the choice, I think he would have been the one and only one Templar I would have spared.

As for blood magic making someone inherently evil I have to disagree. I fail to see how one could determine someone's moral alignment by judging an individual by their capabilities and not the actions they commit themselves.

[Adela]

In Exile wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Corypheus's words in Legacy tell us that the Chantry version of events about the Golden city are wrong. The only question is how much of what they say is wrong.

Corypheus confirms that the mages assaulted the Golden City just like the Chantry says. What's suggested to be wrong is the idea that there was a Maker that tainted them for it... but the implication of his speech is that there was something tainted there. And Corypheus, a magister, did return as a darkspawn. So he was clearly twisted as part of the process. 

The idea that there was a Maker that somehow punished people for invading paradise is clearly wrong... but it seems that Corypheus supports the idea that the magisters done goofed in tearing open the fade. 

yup here are Corypheus quotes

• "Be this some dream I wake from? Am I in dwarven lands? Why seem their roads so empty?"
• "You! Serve you at the temple of Dumat? Bring me hence! I must speak with the first acolyte!"
• "You look human. Are you not citizens of the Empire? Slaves then, to the dwarves? Why come you here?"
• "Whoever you be, you owe fealty to any magister of Tevinter. On your knees! All of you!"
• "Dumat! Lord! Tell me. What waking dream is this?"
• "The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the
  power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt.
  Darkness... ever since. How long?"
• "Dumat? Have you forsaken me? I am your faithful servant..." (if Anders is in the party)
• "If I cannot leave with you, I will leave through you! I seek the light!"
• "Feel the chill! You cannot outrun it! You cannot escape!"
• "You are stronger than I thought! But not strong enough!"

Modifié par ag99, 21 septembre 2013 - 03:49 .

[Medhia Nox]

@In Exile: Would you say killing someone with a sword is a "violation of personal integrity"? If not, why not?

How about burning someone alive, or electrocuting, or cursing of mortality-ing them?

None of these acts are the actions of good men. That they are used as the solution to every problem in a great deal of video games simply shows how far they still need to go to resemble anything worth calling art.

Or - they ARE the actions of good men, in which case - Tranquilizing isn't somehow "more" evil than killing someone with a sword. I'm fairly certain if you could resurrect someone from being murdered with a knife.. they would ALSO prefer life.

And everyone conveniently ignores the first Tranquil we ever meet who - with no reason to lie - asserts that he chose to be Tranquilized. Whether he would change his mind now is inadmissible.

If it is in the reality of the world - I would like for them to show a freed Tranquil who goes insane and starts slaughtering people with out of control magic.

Sorry if I'm derailing this thread - which is supposed to be about a Templar companion. I'll refrain after this post.

[Silfren]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm aware of where Cullen's anti-mage sentiment comes from. Thing is, though, it's irrelevant. The experience explains why he feels the way he does, but it has no bearing on whether his views are morally sound or that a black/white view of all mages is justified.

What the the timing between Cullen's statement and Uldred's torture of him?

Sorry, but given the way certain unnamed yahoos managed to bork the timeline of their own story, I have no idea. 

[Silfren]

ag99 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Are they made Tranquil by Cullen?

If he contributes, he shares the blame.

Ah so by that logic if one mage resorts to blood magic  then that must mean all mages are to blame, that everyone of them will resort to blood magic no?

Your comparison isn't even remotely valid.  The statement was "If he contributes, he shares the blame," NOT "if one templar does something evil, then all templars will do something evil," which is the only way your mage analogy would work.

[In Exile]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@In Exile: Would you say killing someone with a sword is a "violation of personal integrity"? If not, why not?  

It's a violation of their physical integirty. What precisely is it, you think, that makes violence wrong?

None of these acts are the actions of good men. That they are used as the solution to every problem in a great deal of video games simply shows how far they still need to go to resemble anything worth calling art.  

I think it's entirely possible for an act to be "evil" while being justified. Essentially, I am in favour of not washing away the negative of an act just because it has to be the best - or best possible - action in the circumstances. 

And everyone conveniently ignores the first Tranquil we ever meet who - with no reason to lie - asserts that he chose to be Tranquilized. Whether he would change his mind now is inadmissible.  

No, I didn't forget it. That's why I said forcibly. There is a difference between one choosing to end their emotions - whatever I may think of that choice - and having the templars force you to do it.

[Silfren]

ag99 wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...


As does the school of spirit, which Anders uses to summon a pair of hunger demons in Legacy. 

And the school of entropy is all about mass mind control, so precisely what is it that makes you think blood magic is inherently more evil than mana based magic?

Well according to DAO from what I understood the reckless use of blood magic eventually led to the blackening of the the Golden City, the creation of the  darkspawn, and the First Blight

Corypheus' phrasing is "It was supposed to be golden," which is the sticking point.  That's not the phrasing one would use if they came upon a golden city only to watch it turn black.  His wording strongly implies that the City was already black when he and his fellows arrived--that they were surprised to see it that way.  Small a detail as it is, it's sufficient to cast suspicion on the official version. 

For that matter, World of Thedas has a blurb stating that the Chantry only started pushing it's doctrinal line about mages at some point after the 3rd Blight.  Maybe I'm just too cynical, but that does look to me like a politically-motivated smear campaign more than anything.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@In Exile: Would you say killing someone with a sword is a "violation of personal integrity"? If not, why not?

How about burning someone alive, or electrocuting, or cursing of mortality-ing them?

None of these acts are the actions of good men. That they are used as the solution to every problem in a great deal of video games simply shows how far they still need to go to resemble anything worth calling art.

Or - they ARE the actions of good men, in which case - Tranquilizing isn't somehow "more" evil than killing someone with a sword. I'm fairly certain if you could resurrect someone from being murdered with a knife.. they would ALSO prefer life.

And everyone conveniently ignores the first Tranquil we ever meet who - with no reason to lie - asserts that he chose to be Tranquilized. Whether he would change his mind now is inadmissible.

If it is in the reality of the world - I would like for them to show a freed Tranquil who goes insane and starts slaughtering people with out of control magic.

Sorry if I'm derailing this thread - which is supposed to be about a Templar companion. I'll refrain after this post.

I don't think anyone would be prepared to have their emotions ripped out of them,Karl and Pharamond have shown they would rather die than be Tranquil again.Anyway I would love to see a templar who does'nt hate mages or magic and can somewhat understand why they rebelled.

Modifié par cjones91, 21 septembre 2013 - 04:24 .

[In Exile]

Silfren wrote...
Corypheus' phrasing is "It was supposed to be golden," which is the sticking point.  That's not the phrasing one would use if they came upon a golden city only to watch it turn black.  His wording strongly implies that the City was already black when he and his fellows arrived--that they were surprised to see it that way.  Small a detail as it is, it's sufficient to cast suspicion on the official version.  

The question, I think, is whether or not it was gold on the outside. Either way, the Chantry isn't wrong that the magisters entered the city, if we believe Corypheus. He does predate the Third Blight by quite a long time. 

That's not to say that I think the magisters created the darkspawn. But if his last recollection is the Fade and crossing it, and he's some kind of darkspawn monstrosity... it does suggest whatever he found, it was bad news bears. 

[cjones91]

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Corypheus' phrasing is "It was supposed to be golden," which is the sticking point.  That's not the phrasing one would use if they came upon a golden city only to watch it turn black.  His wording strongly implies that the City was already black when he and his fellows arrived--that they were surprised to see it that way.  Small a detail as it is, it's sufficient to cast suspicion on the official version.  

The question, I think, is whether or not it was gold on the outside. Either way, the Chantry isn't wrong that the magisters entered the city, if we believe Corypheus. He does predate the Third Blight by quite a long time. 

That's not to say that I think the magisters created the darkspawn. But if his last recollection is the Fade and crossing it, and he's some kind of darkspawn monstrosity... it does suggest whatever he found, it was bad news bears. 

I personally believe the Chantry "omitted" certain details of the Golden City story just like they edited out the elves' involvement in Andraste's war against the Tevinter Imperium.Why would they do that?Because the truth makes them look bad since the Chantry persecuted and opressed both the elves and mages.

[In Exile]

cjones91 wrote...
I personally believe the Chantry "omitted" certain details of the Golden City story just like they edited out the elves' involvement in Andraste's war against the Tevinter Imperium.Why would they do that?Because the truth makes them look bad since the Chantry persecuted and opressed both the elves and mages.

I'm sure the Chantry blames the darkspawn on the mages to justify the Circles. 

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Corypheus' phrasing is "It was supposed to be golden," which is the sticking point.  That's not the phrasing one would use if they came upon a golden city only to watch it turn black.  His wording strongly implies that the City was already black when he and his fellows arrived--that they were surprised to see it that way.  Small a detail as it is, it's sufficient to cast suspicion on the official version.  

The question, I think, is whether or not it was gold on the outside. Either way, the Chantry isn't wrong that the magisters entered the city, if we believe Corypheus. He does predate the Third Blight by quite a long time. 

That's not to say that I think the magisters created the darkspawn. But if his last recollection is the Fade and crossing it, and he's some kind of darkspawn monstrosity... it does suggest whatever he found, it was bad news bears. 

Really crapp choice of phrasing there.  You've got me craving gourmet chocolate now.

That said, my only point is that Corypheus' words do indeed call the Chantry's version of events into question.  Being right on one point doesn't mean they're right on some or most of the rest...and it says nothing about whether the Chantry is accurate in its claims about motivations, etc. 

Honestly, if we ever are told the truth about the origins of darkspawn, etc., I think it will be a markedly different story from what the Chantry tells. If for no other reason than not doing so would have wasted all the effort spent trying to maintain reasonable doubt with fans.

[cjones91]

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
I personally believe the Chantry "omitted" certain details of the Golden City story just like they edited out the elves' involvement in Andraste's war against the Tevinter Imperium.Why would they do that?Because the truth makes them look bad since the Chantry persecuted and opressed both the elves and mages.

I'm sure the Chantry blames the darkspawn on the mages to justify the Circles. 

Yep and it's in their best interests to keep the populace of Thedas fearful of mages because then the Chantry has a monopoly on magic.I'm hoping we find out the real truth behind the Golden City and the darkspawa in DA:I.

[In Exile]

Silfren wrote...
Really crapp choice of phrasing there.  You've got me craving gourmet chocolate now.

You mean brilliant choice of phrasing. 

That said, my only point is that Corypheus' words do indeed call the Chantry's version of events into question.  Being right on one point doesn't mean they're right on some or most of the rest...and it says nothing about whether the Chantry is accurate in its claims about motivations, etc.  

Oh, I agree with you entirely. I just think that the Chantry's narrative does piggy-back on a real event. 

Honestly, if we ever are told the truth about the origins of darkspawn, etc., I think it will be a markedly different story from what the Chantry tells. If for no other reason than not doing so would have wasted all the effort spent trying to maintain reasonable doubt with fans.

Given that the dwarves mention the darkspawn came from the deep, I think that whatever the mages did, it wasn't the origin or the reason for the release of the darkspawn. 

cjones91 wrote...

Yep and it's in their best interests to keep the populace of Thedas fearful of mages because then the Chantry has a monopoly on magic.I'm hoping we find out the real truth behind the Golden City and the darkspawa in DA:I.

Well, not a monopoly. Tevinter and the qunari, for example.

[Chanda]

In Exile wrote...

Well, not a monopoly. Tevinter and the qunari, for example.

Hmm. Now you have me wondering. If an elven or human mage joins the Qun, do they sew their lips shut, make them wear a mask, bind them and chain them to a handler?

Modifié par Chanda, 21 septembre 2013 - 04:58 .

[In Exile]

Chanda wrote...
Hmm. Now you have me wondering. If an elven or human mage joins the Qun, do they sew their lips shut, make them wear a mask, bind them and chain them to a handler?

My guess would be: yes, absolutely. Being bound in that way is part of the recognition of the role of being a mage in the Qun, i.e., a "dangerous thing". 

[dragonflight288]

Oh, I agree with you entirely. I just think that the Chantry's narrative does piggy-back on a real event.

Most statements do. The phrase, 'every legend has a grain of truth' most likely applies. The Magisters entered the Fade, and the came back as awakened darkspawn. Everything else the Chantry teaches, could easily be propaganda and nothing more. Including them being the first darkspawn, as there's a lot of evidence from dwarven origin codexes that suggest that the darkspawn came from beneath them, from areas long forgotten (like the primeval thaig.) It's quite likely the dwarves created the first darkspawn.

Given that the dwarves mention the darkspawn came from the deep, I think that whatever the mages did, it wasn't the origin or the reason for the release of the darkspawn.

Ah, you and I agree.

Yep and it's in their best interests to keep the populace of Thedas fearful of mages because then the Chantry has a monopoly on magic.I'm hoping we find out the real truth behind the Golden City and the darkspawa in DA:I.

I would say that the Chantry has a monopoly on 'accepted magics' as they make it quite clear that any magic the circles don't practice (aka, magic not approved of by the Chantry) tends to fall into the blood magic category.

The wiki says, and is backed up by Wynne in Origins, that Morrigan is considered a maleficar, not because of blood magic (which is what a maleficar is and nothing more) but because of her shapeshifting abilities, and the wiki/some codex entries say that the Chantry and templars do what they can to blur the line between apostate and maleficar so they are seen as one and the same.

[Sister Goldring]

Chanda wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Well, not a monopoly. Tevinter and the qunari, for example.

Hmm. Now you have me wondering. If an elven or human mage joins the Qun, do they sew their lips shut, make them wear a mask, bind them and chain them to a handler?

Now you've got me thinking has there ever been an elven or human Mage so completely off their nut that they tried to join the Qun...  Also wouldn't it rather be the case that they'd have to join and then immediately set themselves on fire for having been without a handler for x many years before they joined....

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Most statements do. The phrase, 'every legend has a grain of truth' most likely applies. The Magisters entered the Fade, and the came back as awakened darkspawn. Everything else the Chantry teaches, could easily be propaganda and nothing more. Including them being the first darkspawn, as there's a lot of evidence from dwarven origin codexes that suggest that the darkspawn came from beneath them, from areas long forgotten (like the primeval thaig.) It's quite likely the dwarves created the first darkspawn. 

I think that the dwarves and Tevinter (and its precursors) were more closely involved than people recognize. My guess is that whatever happened in the primieval thaig involved serious magical experiments, and that the darkspawn are the results of similar experiments (my guess is into immortality). 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Everyone seems to think the darkspawn are the ones who corrupt the old gods into archdemons. But what if the darkspawn are the ones corrupted by the old gods in the first place. If the old gods led the magisters to their prison in the fade, where they turned them into servants to seek out and release them from the deep.

The implications are unsettling, most of which is that the old gods are neither gone nor dormant, but active in trying to resurrect themselves and destroy the world of the living.

[In Exile]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Everyone seems to think the darkspawn are the ones who corrupt the old gods into archdemons. But what if the darkspawn are the ones corrupted by the old gods in the first place. If the old gods led the magisters to their prison in the fade, where they turned them into servants to seek out and release them from the deep.

The implications are unsettling, most of which is that the old gods are neither gone nor dormant, but active in trying to resurrect themselves and destroy the world of the living.

The darkspawn corrupt humans, elves, dwarves and qunari into ghouls, so this part of the theory is not exactly unprecedented. Dumat clearly trolled Corypeus, but darkspawn clearly play a nefarious role in all of this. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Silfren wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm aware of where Cullen's anti-mage sentiment comes from. Thing is, though, it's irrelevant. The experience explains why he feels the way he does, but it has no bearing on whether his views are morally sound or that a black/white view of all mages is justified.

What the the timing between Cullen's statement and Uldred's torture of him?

Sorry, but given the way certain unnamed yahoos managed to bork the timeline of their own story, I have no idea. 

Wouldn't the timing affect his state of mind?

[LobselVith8]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Sorry, but given the way certain unnamed yahoos managed to bork the timeline of their own story, I have no idea.   

Wouldn't the timing affect his state of mind? 

At least a year, but Cullen's dialogue is intentionally vague on how long specifically. His participation in Meredith's Right of Annulment years later is another reason some dislike him.