935 réponses à ce sujet

[Chanda]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm aware of where Cullen's anti-mage sentiment comes from. Thing is, though, it's irrelevant. The experience explains why he feels the way he does, but it has no bearing on whether his views are morally sound or that a black/white view of all mages is justified.

What the the timing between Cullen's statement and Uldred's torture of him?

Sorry, but given the way certain unnamed yahoos managed to bork the timeline of their own story, I have no idea. 

Wouldn't the timing affect his state of mind?

You mean like he had a chance to calm down between his torture from Uldred and the statement he makes about mages cannot be treated like people? Or... What do you mean? 

[Allan Schumacher]

You mean like he had a chance to calm down between his torture from Uldred and the statement he makes about mages cannot be treated like people? Or... What do you mean?

Yeah, the main reason why I asked is because I don't remember where/when he says the line.

The closer it is to the act, the less time he has had to process what has gone on.


(although I believe the timing is some time after, from what someone else had told me).

[The Elder King]

Cullen's statement happened in Act 1, a year after Hawke arrived in Kirkwall, after the Blight ended. Months should have passed from the Broken Circle quest.

[Sister Goldring]

Although I see the point that time to process a situation can be useful in moderating an opinion,  I'm
not so sure that this would be a relevant  factor in how quickly one is capable of readjusting their opinions after a truly traumatic experience like for example being tortured by a group of horrible abominations who eat your
friends (Ok, I doubt the abominations really ate anyone according to lore but whatever they did was I gather rather repulsive and as they definitely look like the sort of monsters that would not be opposed ideologically to eating
imprisoned Templars, I say we go forward with it  ).

Anyway, I think rather than looking at  length of time between events we would need to examine exposure to incidents in which our subject was presented with a similar group acting differently in comparable situations in order to make a compelling argument for a radical reversal of an established opinion.

Personally, I think Cullen has every reason to hold a position of extreme suspicion of Mages and to advocate for controls upon their liberty after his experiences in the Ferelden Circle and I would argue that the events of the Kirkwall Circle would likely reinforce this belief rather than moderate it, even after he becomes aware of Meredith's lyrium idol issues and the excesses of the Templars there.  The relevant fact seems to be that once they determine the situation warrants it mages consistently resort to blood magic and there will be abominations terrorizing the populace.  We saw Fenris unwaveringly hold this position throughout DA2 and he was most clearly drawn as another victim of abuse by Mages.

I think this sympathetic portrayal of prejudice and the character’s continued willingness to show mercy despite his personal experience is what makes Cullen so interesting.  I hope to see his story continue and even if it does not or it goes in a direction that I personally do not favor, I think it speaks very highly of his writers that so many people have found the character and conflict presented compelling enough to form passionate opinions about and argue vehemently over. 

Modifié par Sister Goldring, 21 septembre 2013 - 10:00 .

[The Six Path of Pain]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

You mean like he had a chance to calm down between his torture from Uldred and the statement he makes about mages cannot be treated like people? Or... What do you mean?

Yeah, the main reason why I asked is because I don't remember where/when he says the line.

The closer it is to the act, the less time he has had to process what has gone on.


(although I believe the timing is some time after, from what someone else had told me).

Cullen says that line in Act 1 after finishing the quest 'Enemies Among Us'. You know, the one where after Hawke tells him that his recruits may be possed he says that epic "Sweet blood of Andraste' line lol...So one to one and half years after the Uldred incident.

Modifié par The Six Path of Pain, 21 septembre 2013 - 09:51 .

[Wulfram]

Silfren wrote...

Corypheus' phrasing is "It was supposed to be golden," which is the sticking point.  That's not the phrasing one would use if they came upon a golden city only to watch it turn black.  His wording strongly implies that the City was already black when he and his fellows arrived--that they were surprised to see it that way.  Small a detail as it is, it's sufficient to cast suspicion on the official version. 

If their presence turns it black, how would they ever see it as golden?  Bit of a "light in the refrigerator" problem - there's no way anyone could ever know that it was golden on the inside, short of the Maker telling them - but I'm not seeing any inherent problems for the Chantry account.

[The Elder King]

While I don't care if the Chantry lore is true or not, I agree with Wulfram. The city might have been blackened istantly, before the magisters could have seen its golden form.
Both hyphothesis (City already Black or being blackened istantly) are possible. I hope in one game we'll find out the thruth.

[Walrider]

Sister Goldring wrote...

Although I see the point that time to process a situation can be useful in moderating an opinion,  I'm
not so sure that this would be a relevant a factor in how quickly one is capable of readjusting their opinions after a truly traumatic experience like for example being tortured by a group of horrible abominations who eat your
friends (Ok, I doubt the abominations really ate anyone according to lore but whatever they did was I gather rather repulsive and as they definitely look like the sort of monsters that would not be opposed ideologically to eating
imprisoned Templars, I say we go forward with it  ).

About the processing of trauma, I entirely agree. Time doesn't necessarily heal all wounds, especially if you haven't recieved help for them. And I'm willing to bet Cullen didn't get much, if any, help to process what he went through.

I'm gunna go ahead and pull an example from ME2, where Mordin tells Shepard after his loyalty mission that salarians process emotions very quickly, but that doesn't mean they're any healthier for it. Maelon processed the genophage easily enough, and he still ended up reaching his tragic solution to it.

So Cullen could've had all the time in the world to think about what he's been through; if he hasn't gotten the proper help to cope with it, then that time doesn't mean jack.

[Sister Goldring]

ObiWanJesus wrote...


About the processing of trauma, I entirely agree. Time doesn't necessarily heal all wounds, especially if you haven't recieved help for them. And I'm willing to bet Cullen didn't get much, if any, help to process what he went through.

I'm gunna go ahead and pull an example from ME2, where Mordin tells Shepard after his loyalty mission that salarians process emotions very quickly, but that doesn't mean they're any healthier for it. Maelon processed the genophage easily enough, and he still ended up reaching his tragic solution to it.

So Cullen could've had all the time in the world to think about what he's been through; if he hasn't gotten the proper help to cope with it, then that time doesn't mean jack.

I agree and I wonder if we could extend the argument to suggest that much of the percieved benefits of time in dealing with difficult situations lies in a passage of time simply allowing a person to accumulate other experiences which they internalise to counter or address some of the issues that have arisen.   I don't think in and of itself time is particularly useful therapy for trauma.

[Walrider]

Sister Goldring wrote...

I agree and I wonder if we could extend the argument to suggest that much of the percieved benefits of time in dealing with difficult situations lies in a passage of time simply allowing a person to accumulate other experiences which they internalise to counter or address some of the issues that have arisen.   I don't think in and of itself time is particularly useful therapy for trauma.

And since Kirkwall was the anti-thesis of a healthy enviroment, I think it's a bit miraculous that Cullen turned out as stable as he seems. A bit too black-and-white, maybe, but considering what he could've become - going off the Origins epilogue slides - he's pretty well adjusted.

Annnd just in time for the veil to tear, and bring on a whole new slew of traumas that probably make the circle massacre look like tea with granny.

Ho boy.

[Sister Goldring]

ObiWanJesus wrote...


And since Kirkwall was the anti-thesis of a healthy enviroment, I think it's a bit miraculous that Cullen turned out as stable as he seems. A bit too black-and-white, maybe, but considering what he could've become - going off the Origins epilogue slides - he's pretty well adjusted.

Annnd just in time for the veil to tear, and bring on a whole new slew of traumas that probably make the circle massacre look like tea with granny.

Ho boy.

And people wonder why some are so keen to see the character show up again.  He practically oozes dramatic potential.   Go on Bioware, poke him with a stick, I want to see what happens!  

[Sharn01]

In Exile wrote...

Chanda wrote...
Hmm. Now you have me wondering. If an elven or human mage joins the Qun, do they sew their lips shut, make them wear a mask, bind them and chain them to a handler?

My guess would be: yes, absolutely. Being bound in that way is part of the recognition of the role of being a mage in the Qun, i.e., a "dangerous thing". 

I may be incorrect, but I believe it has been said that mages are not converted by the Qunari, but killed instead.  The only mages they have are the ones born within the Qun. 

[Walrider]

Sister Goldring wrote...


And people wonder why some are so keen to see the character show up again.  He practically oozes dramatic potential.   Go on Bioware, poke him with a stick, I want to see what happens!  

So long as I can offer him a hug, later on. >>;

[MWImexico]

^ Can't he find a way to deal with his troubles on his own? I know that in real life that doesn't work like that and I'm not against support him somehow but, if he is a companion, I rather look at him with admiration/respect than pity. I guess I'm tired of too broken characters and the idea of someone capable to stay mentally sane against all odds is pretty nice.

Modifié par MWImexico, 21 septembre 2013 - 11:51 .

[Sister Goldring]

MWImexico wrote...

^ Can't he find a way to deal with his troubles on his own? I know that in real life that doesn't work like that and I'm not against support him somehow but, if he is a companion, I rather look at him with admiration/respect than pity. I guess I'm tired of too broken characters and the idea of someone capable to stay mentally sane against all odds is pretty nice.

Oh sure, I see where you're coming from and again I've got no idea what if anything they're going to do with him but what I really like about Cullen is if they make him bonkers then I as the audience can relate and sympathise with the journey the character has been on that has brought him to this place (heck we don't even have to imagine it, we've seen it played out over two separate games).  If he is portrayed as reasonable and moderate in his attitudes then we've got before us a totally admirable figure because coming through the experiences Cullen has and maintaining a sense of perspective and balance about the issues is of itself the mark of an impressively strong and moral personality.  Most importantly this interpretation is again something I as the audience can appreciate by following the characters journey through my own games.  Either way I think he's a totally interesting figure and one I would like to see again.  

[Silfren]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm aware of where Cullen's anti-mage sentiment comes from. Thing is, though, it's irrelevant. The experience explains why he feels the way he does, but it has no bearing on whether his views are morally sound or that a black/white view of all mages is justified.

What the the timing between Cullen's statement and Uldred's torture of him?

Sorry, but given the way certain unnamed yahoos managed to bork the timeline of their own story, I have no idea. 

Wouldn't the timing affect his state of mind?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. That Uldred's torture is what caused Cullen's irrational hatred?  Of course it did.  That after a certain point, sufficient time had passed to make it plausible for Cullen's trauma to heal so that he no longer defaulted at "argh mages are demons, lying in wait!"

If you mean the latter, well, I don't think so.  Of course, that can happen.  I've said time and again that I could easily see Cullen's entire character arc being that of a man who went from naive mage sympathizer to rabid mage hater to a balanced mage..er...well, an Evangeline/Bryant type of templar
The tragedy of what happens to Cullen in Origins is what makes him such a great character.  Going from a man who could easily be a champion for mage rights--even while he admits that he will follow through his duty when called for--to a man so badly twisted that, according to Origins epilogue slides, he slaughters Circle mages before escaping the tower, and then becomes a wandering madman, killing mages whenever he can...or, alternatively, he replaces Greagoir as Knight Commander and rules the Ferelden Circle with fear.

That those slides were jettisoned to force Cullen into a role as a major side character notwithstanding, they were a natural conclusion to his story.  DA2 even acknowledges this in the beginning: Greagoir sent Cullen to Kirkwall to get him away from the environment of his trauma, and Meredith apparently promoted him to Knight Captain because his views on mages were very much in line with her own....and then of course you get Cullen's own remarks about mages, though with less rabid mouth-foaming.  Great...but then, from that point on, it is all watered down and Cullen becomes suddenly a lot more reasonable, without any visible explanation given to players to show why.

[Plaintiff]

Frankly, I don't think Cullen's experience in DA:O justifies his attitude for even a short amount of time, let alone a whole year.

Hating an entire group of people for harm done to you by individuals is not rational or acceptable. I've been assaulted. It screwed me up in many ways, but it didn't turn me into a mouth-frothing bigot who dehumanizes and wants to imprison all the oily douchebags who use too much hair product.

[Silfren]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

You mean like he had a chance to calm down between his torture from Uldred and the statement he makes about mages cannot be treated like people? Or... What do you mean?

Yeah, the main reason why I asked is because I don't remember where/when he says the line.

The closer it is to the act, the less time he has had to process what has gone on.


(although I believe the timing is some time after, from what someone else had told me).

Cullen says that line in Act 1 after finishing the quest 'Enemies Among Us'. You know, the one where after Hawke tells him that his recruits may be possed he says that epic "Sweet blood of Andraste' line lol...So one to one and half years after the Uldred incident.

I don't think you can say one to one 1/2 years definitively, actually.  Ending the Blight took about a year to year and a half, and Hawke fled Lothering just as it was beginning.  The beginning of Act 1, being a year afterward, is more or less concurrent with the end of the Blight.  It gets tricky, since you can do the quests in any order, and the storyline has a clunky way of referencing the passage of time, but I'd say only a few months at most.

It doesn't help that when you talk to Wynne--and you can only do this at some point after Broken Circle--she says something about nearly a year having gone by.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Frankly, I don't think Cullen's experience in DA:O justifies his attitude for even a short amount of time, let alone a whole year.

Hating an entire group of people for harm done to you by individuals is not rational or acceptable. I've been assaulted. It screwed me up in many ways, but it didn't turn me into a mouth-frothing bigot who dehumanizes and wants to imprison all the oily douchebags who use too much hair product.

Well.  Whether his attitude is justified is a different animal altogether.  I agree, his mouth-frothing dehumanization of all mages is not justified, but it is understandable why he would feel this way.  

Mind, I think the man is far too broken to be in any position of authority over mages.  Yeah, I'm looking at you, Greagoir, you daft idiot.

[TK514]

Plaintiff wrote...

Frankly, I don't think Cullen's experience in DA:O justifies his attitude for even a short amount of time, let alone a whole year.

Hating an entire group of people for harm done to you by individuals is not rational or acceptable. I've been assaulted. It screwed me up in many ways, but it didn't turn me into a mouth-frothing bigot who dehumanizes and wants to imprison all the oily douchebags who use too much hair product.

Not being a rational belief is sort of the basis for irrational fear and prejudice.

And by assaulted, you mean you were held captive for days, starved, and forced to watch as all your friends and co-workers were tortured to death in front of you?  Submitted to illusions and mental manipulations designed to crush your hope and leave you open to agreeing to anything your captors asked?  So tormented by false salvation that when rescuers did arrive you initially refused to believe they were real?

Wow.  You don't come across as old enough to have spent any time in a POW camp.  What an interesting life you must lead.

[Plaintiff]

TK514 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Frankly, I don't think Cullen's experience in DA:O justifies his attitude for even a short amount of time, let alone a whole year.

Hating an entire group of people for harm done to you by individuals is not rational or acceptable. I've been assaulted. It screwed me up in many ways, but it didn't turn me into a mouth-frothing bigot who dehumanizes and wants to imprison all the oily douchebags who use too much hair product.

Not being a rational belief is sort of the basis for irrational fear and prejudice.

And by assaulted, you mean you were held captive for days, starved, and forced to watch as all your friends and co-workers were tortured to death in front of you?  Submitted to illusions and mental manipulations designed to crush your hope and leave you open to agreeing to anything your captors asked?  So tormented by false salvation that when rescuers did arrive you initially refused to believe they were real?

Wow.  You don't come across as old enough to have spent any time in a POW camp.  What an interesting life you must lead.

The level of assault doesn't signify. Trauma of any kind is not an excuse for bigotry, and if Cullen is as mentally scarred as you seem to be claiming, then he probably shouldn't be working at all, let alone in an authoritarian position over a group of people against whom he already has a personal bias.

If Cullen is fit to work, and Bioware (and Cullen supporters) expect me to believe that he is, then he's fit to be judged by the same standards I'd judge anyone else.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Frankly, I don't think Cullen's experience in DA:O justifies his attitude for even a short amount of time, let alone a whole year.

Hating an entire group of people for harm done to you by individuals is not rational or acceptable. I've been assaulted. It screwed me up in many ways, but it didn't turn me into a mouth-frothing bigot who dehumanizes and wants to imprison all the oily douchebags who use too much hair product.

Not being a rational belief is sort of the basis for irrational fear and prejudice.

And by assaulted, you mean you were held captive for days, starved, and forced to watch as all your friends and co-workers were tortured to death in front of you?  Submitted to illusions and mental manipulations designed to crush your hope and leave you open to agreeing to anything your captors asked?  So tormented by false salvation that when rescuers did arrive you initially refused to believe they were real?

Wow.  You don't come across as old enough to have spent any time in a POW camp.  What an interesting life you must lead.

The level of assault doesn't signify. Trauma of any kind is not an excuse for bigotry, and if Cullen is as mentally scarred as you seem to be claiming, then he probably shouldn't be working at all, let alone in an authoritarian position over a group of people against whom he already has a personal bias.

If Cullen is fit to work, and Bioware (and Cullen supporters) expect me to believe that he is, then he's fit to be judged by the same standards I'd judge anyone else.

Careful.  You'll be accused of just hating the character so much that you just pick apart his flaws so you can twist him into a super evil bad guy. 

I think a lot of people forget to separate opinions of Cullen as a character, versus opinions of him as if he were an actual person--this is why you can't, apparently, assess the character without having a horde of people descend on you to defend him as if his honor has been besmirched.  I think he's one of the more interesting characters in DA, but he is somewhere near the bottom of the list of people I'd like to sit down for coffee with.

[duckley]

Plaintiff wrote...

Frankly, I don't think Cullen's experience in DA:O justifies his attitude for even a short amount of time, let alone a whole year.

Hating an entire group of people for harm done to you by individuals is not rational or acceptable. I've been assaulted. It screwed me up in many ways, but it didn't turn me into a mouth-frothing bigot who dehumanizes and wants to imprison all the oily douchebags who use too much hair product.

Yes - irrational - but  not uncommon for anyone who experienced the level of trauma this man experienced.  I met  survivors from WW2 years ago  who still hated and who  refused to even  purchase products  made in the country of thier trauma.  Dont forget that families were imprisoned in internment camps in NA for fear they may be spies working for the AXIS during WW2 - so the idea of imprisioning mages out of fear is not unusual (not saying it is right though)

We are all different in terms of our ability to cope. I think Cullen's journey is fairly realistic and in the end, he did the right thing.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nem-sis wrote...

My mundane, pro-mage Hawke disagreed with Cullen in almost every issue, as I'am against everything the Templar order stands for. However, after he calls off his army after the death of Meredith and allows myself and my apostate associates to simply walk away.... I don't think I could have brought myself to stick a dagger in his spine if given the choice, I think he would have been the one and only one Templar I would have spared.

Poor Thrask... and SerBryant. ..and Ser Otto.

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
The level of assault doesn't signify. Trauma of any kind is not an excuse for bigotry, and if Cullen is as mentally scarred as you seem to be claiming, then he probably shouldn't be working at all, let alone in an authoritarian position over a group of people against whom he already has a personal bias.

If Cullen is fit to work, and Bioware (and Cullen supporters) expect me to believe that he is, then he's fit to be judged by the same standards I'd judge anyone else.

I agree with your conclusion, but I think the level of assault does allow us to explain bigotry, which is different than justify it. Like you say, however, the fact that Cullen was broken because of his experience is just proof that he should no longer perform the job.