935 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

In Exile wrote...

I agree with your conclusion, but I think the level of assault does allow us to explain bigotry, which is different than justify it. Like you say, however, the fact that Cullen was broken because of his experience is just proof that he should no longer perform the job. 

Indeed. This is however, not a setting were such things are understood or even accepted. Even in our world PTSD and similar was a completely foreign concept until after the world wars... and even then it was generally seen as cowardice rather than mental trauma.

Cullen needs treatment. But this is not a setting where he'll either be dismissed for it or recieve it.

[MWImexico]

Plaintiff wrote...
...
If Cullen is fit to work, and Bioware (and Cullen supporters) expect me to believe that he is, then he's fit to be judged by the same standards I'd judge anyone else.

So you mean that since he occupied a post of responsibility in Kirkwall's circle, he also should take his share of responsibility in what's happened during his service? If so, that seems fair to me.

Though I wonder, perhaps he simply was to blind to see what was going on around him? Cause, I might be wrong about him but I think he's not the type of person who could allow abuses to be commited in front of him and do nothing about it. I supose that, in his mind, he was simply doing his job?

Anyway, since Asunder I tend to relativise, because the climat of paranoia was not something only present in Kirkwall but also in other circles (and abuses were comited there too). So the entire system seems dysfunctional, not only one spot.   

[duckley]

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
The level of assault doesn't signify. Trauma of any kind is not an excuse for bigotry, and if Cullen is as mentally scarred as you seem to be claiming, then he probably shouldn't be working at all, let alone in an authoritarian position over a group of people against whom he already has a personal bias.

If Cullen is fit to work, and Bioware (and Cullen supporters) expect me to believe that he is, then he's fit to be judged by the same standards I'd judge anyone else.

I agree with your conclusion, but I think the level of assault does allow us to explain bigotry, which is different than justify it. Like you say, however, the fact that Cullen was broken because of his experience is just proof that he should no longer perform the job. 

I may be mistaken (usually am) but one epilogue account - or maybe it was in Witch Hunt - , implied that Cullen went to a small quiet place to recover and this was before going to Kirkwall I assume. I think if he went mad and started randomly  killing Mages Gregoire would NOT have sent him to Kirkwall Gregoire seemed a fairly honorable type.So I always assumed he was considered fit to work from the point of view of the era in which Dragon Age took place ( maybe not so much by our standards).

I think Cullen's experiences show an interesting progression in his character development as others have pointed out far more eloquently than I. I see Cullen as going from naive young man who wants to serve the Order (which in and of itself may cause some to dislike him) and who has a benevolent view of Mages to one who, as a result of a horrific experience (as opposed to being an evil awful person), becoming  mistrustful and fearful of all Mages to one who begins to question and has maybe a mini crisis of faith to one who ultimately stands up for what is right.

I am very interested to see what happens next. In a way Cullen is a victim of both Mages and Templars... so where does that leave him. My guess is Cullen will try to find another solution to the issue so may  want to join the Inquisition. If not, he will likley become a wondering drunk - and join Alistiar....

[Ryzaki]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nem-sis wrote...

My mundane, pro-mage Hawke disagreed with Cullen in almost every issue, as I'am against everything the Templar order stands for. However, after he calls off his army after the death of Meredith and allows myself and my apostate associates to simply walk away.... I don't think I could have brought myself to stick a dagger in his spine if given the choice, I think he would have been the one and only one Templar I would have spared.

Poor Thrask... and SerBryant. ..and Ser Otto.

I'm still mad that **** Grace killed him.

Goddamned plot shield.

[Sir DeLoria]

Ryzaki wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nem-sis wrote...

My mundane, pro-mage Hawke disagreed with Cullen in almost every issue, as I'am against everything the Templar order stands for. However, after he calls off his army after the death of Meredith and allows myself and my apostate associates to simply walk away.... I don't think I could have brought myself to stick a dagger in his spine if given the choice, I think he would have been the one and only one Templar I would have spared.

Poor Thrask... and SerBryant. ..and Ser Otto.

I'm still mad that **** Grace killed him.

Goddamned plot shield.

I know! If I had the option, I would've decapitated her immediately.

[In Exile]

Sir JK wrote...
Indeed. This is however, not a setting were such things are understood or even accepted. Even in our world PTSD and similar was a completely foreign concept until after the world wars... and even then it was generally seen as cowardice rather than mental trauma.

Cullen needs treatment. But this is not a setting where he'll either be dismissed for it or recieve it.

Generally, I'd agree in terms of the setting. I do think, though, that when the ostensibly mission of the templars is to protect mages from others as much as it is to protect mages from themselves, the ones that often say "they're all evil!!" probably shouldn't be on your "hire" list. 

duckley wrote...
I may be mistaken (usually am) but one epilogue account - or maybe it was in Witch Hunt - , implied that Cullen went to a small quiet place to recover and this was before going to Kirkwall I assume. I think if he went mad and started randomly  killing Mages Gregoire would NOT have sent him to Kirkwall Gregoire seemed a fairly honorable type.So I always assumed he was considered fit to work from the point of view of the era in which Dragon Age took place ( maybe not so much by our standards).

Whatever happened between DA:O and DA2, to me Cullen still came off as coo-coo for cocopuffs in DA2. Perhaps he was reasonable about it if Hawke decided some mage-massacre was a good idea in Act 3. I wouldn't know, since that's never a choice I've made. 

But for Acts 1 and 2, Cullen is on the side of looney tunes. 

I see Cullen as going from naive young man who wants to serve the Order (which in and of itself may cause some to dislike him) and who has a benevolent view of Mages to one who, as a result of a horrific experience (as opposed to being an evil awful person), becoming  mistrustful and fearful of all Mages to one who begins to question and has maybe a mini crisis of faith to one who ultimately stands up for what is right. 

He's way beyond fearful. He dehumanizes mages on multiple occassions. He admonishes them for complaining about tranquility. He thinks, on the whole, that it's not strictly speaking a bad idea to forcibly turn all mages tranquil if the templars can't get them under control in other ways. 

[azarhal]

Plaintiff wrote...

Hating an entire group of people for harm done to you by individuals is not rational or acceptable.

It might not be rational or acceptable, doesn't mean people won't do it.

Cassandra spent years hating all mages, because a few blood mages killed her close family when she was a child. She was still traumatized by it considering how she butchered the blood mages she encountered in DotS. She clearly never received psychological help with it, except for Byron and, sort of, Galyan. Seems to me that Cullen's hatred for mages based on what happened to him is pretty normal. Doesn't mean he can see past it as Cassandra did though.

MWImexico wrote...

Though I wonder, perhaps he simply was
to blind to see what was going on around him? Cause, I might be wrong
about him but I think he's not the type of person who could allow abuses
to be commited in front of him and do nothing about it. I supose that,
in his mind, he was simply doing his job?

Cullen was Meredith second-in-command (Knight-Captain), that's why he can demote her when she goes crazy in the end. If he didn't know what was happening with the Templars he was technically commanding, he's either terrible at his job, turned a blind eye because he's a coward or he actually approved what was happening...

[duckley]

In Exile wrote...

duckley wrote...
I may be mistaken (usually am) but one epilogue account - or maybe it was in Witch Hunt - , implied that Cullen went to a small quiet place to recover and this was before going to Kirkwall I assume. I think if he went mad and started randomly  killing Mages Gregoire would NOT have sent him to Kirkwall Gregoire seemed a fairly honorable type.So I always assumed he was considered fit to work from the point of view of the era in which Dragon Age took place ( maybe not so much by our standards).

Whatever happened between DA:O and DA2, to me Cullen still came off as coo-coo for cocopuffs in DA2. Perhaps he was reasonable about it if Hawke decided some mage-massacre was a good idea in Act 3. I wouldn't know, since that's never a choice I've made. 

But for Acts 1 and 2, Cullen is on the side of looney tunes. 

I see Cullen as going from naive young man who wants to serve the Order (which in and of itself may cause some to dislike him) and who has a benevolent view of Mages to one who, as a result of a horrific experience (as opposed to being an evil awful person), becoming  mistrustful and fearful of all Mages to one who begins to question and has maybe a mini crisis of faith to one who ultimately stands up for what is right. 

He's way beyond fearful. He dehumanizes mages on multiple occassions. He admonishes them for complaining about tranquility. He thinks, on the whole, that it's not strictly speaking a bad idea to forcibly turn all mages tranquil if the templars can't get them under control in other ways. 

I guess I didnt see him as crazy as you did. I cant recall all his dialogue (but when I replay I will pay more attention) but one line that stands out for me was when he says in Act 1 I think, that Mages aren't people. For sure a dehumanizing statement, but  one that also could be understood  as an actual truth  if understood that Mages are  not "ordinary" people - they have a special gift or power.  I guess because I like the character, I leave him some wiggle room - at least there...
What I find interesting is that I despise the Loghain character and cant figure out why some can excuse or overlook his behaviour. Then I think about how I may overlook some of Cullen's behaviour and have to take a step back LOL:innocent:


What bugs me is that Templars and Mages have not figured out a way to detect possession. What about that substance that Niall gave the Warden that at least protects against possession. Making all Mages tranquil may be one solution as you say if Templars cant get their act together, but I wonder if there arent other more appropriate solutions. Thats kind of what I am hoping can happen in DA:I

[duckley]

azarhal wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

Though I wonder, perhaps he simply was
to blind to see what was going on around him? Cause, I might be wrong
about him but I think he's not the type of person who could allow abuses
to be commited in front of him and do nothing about it. I supose that,
in his mind, he was simply doing his job?

Cullen was Meredith second-in-command (Knight-Captain), that's why he can demote her when she goes crazy in the end. If he didn't know what was happening with the Templars he was technically commanding, he's either terrible at his job, turned a blind eye because he's a coward or he actually approved what was happening...

I think you have hit an important consideration. I totally agree with you here. If he knew and did nothing, then he bears responsbility. We dont know for sure how much he knew, what he may have  done to try to stop abuses, or how much Meredith controlled what he knew and did not know.

Based on what he knew (and he may not have known everything - lets face it , Meredith was in control not Cullen) he may well have thought some of the actions were justified (i.e. locking up a Mage or making him/her tranquil) but if he knew about rapes and beatings.... then for me, that cannot be justified.

Locking Mages up and making them, tranquil  when deemed necesaary can be defined as abuse , but that was the expectation for Templars serving the circle - that was their job right or wrong. Rape and torture I dont beleive was in their job description - what I am not clear about is how widespread these types of abuses were in the Kirkwall Circle.

[azarhal]

duckley wrote...

azarhal wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

Though I wonder, perhaps he simply was
to blind to see what was going on around him? Cause, I might be wrong
about him but I think he's not the type of person who could allow abuses
to be commited in front of him and do nothing about it. I supose that,
in his mind, he was simply doing his job?

Cullen was Meredith second-in-command (Knight-Captain), that's why he can demote her when she goes crazy in the end. If he didn't know what was happening with the Templars he was technically commanding, he's either terrible at his job, turned a blind eye because he's a coward or he actually approved what was happening...

I think you have hit an important consideration. I totally agree with you here. If he knew and did nothing, then he bears responsbility. We dont know for sure how much he knew, what he may have  done to try to stop abuses, or how much Meredith controlled what he knew and did not know.

Based on what he knew (and he may not have known everything - lets face it , Meredith was in control not Cullen) he may well have thought some of the actions were justified (i.e. locking up a Mage or making him/her tranquil) but if he knew about rapes and beatings.... then for me, that cannot be justified.

Making Harrowed Tranquil is against Chantry law and that apparently happened every other week in Kirkwall Circle. There's no way Cullen wasn't aware of that one.

[Iakus]

TK514 wrote...

Not being a rational belief is sort of the basis for irrational fear and prejudice.

And by assaulted, you mean you were held captive for days, starved, and forced to watch as all your friends and co-workers were tortured to death in front of you?  Submitted to illusions and mental manipulations designed to crush your hope and leave you open to agreeing to anything your captors asked?  So tormented by false salvation that when rescuers did arrive you initially refused to believe they were real?

Wow.  You don't come across as old enough to have spent any time in a POW camp.  What an interesting life you must lead.

Don't forget forced to watch good mages forcibly get turned into abominations, who then proceed to join in on the torture, murder, mental manipulation, etc.

Don't forget, Cullen doesn't simply believe mages are evil and inhuman, he believes mages can be forced to become evil and inhuman.  That Act 1 quest even showed that it's possible (though more difficult) for nonmages to be turned as well.

This is what Cullen fears above all else.  

[MWImexico]

azarhal wrote...
...
Cullen was Meredith second-in-command (Knight-Captain), that's why he can demote her when she goes crazy in the end. If he didn't know what was happening with the Templars he was technically commanding, he's either terrible at his job, turned a blind eye because he's a coward or he actually approved what was happening...

I don't know how a typical Knight-Captain is supposed to behave so I can't say.

In Exile wrote...
...

But for Acts 1 and 2, Cullen is on the side of looney tunes. 
....
He's way beyond fearful. He dehumanizes mages on multiple occassions. He admonishes them for complaining about tranquility. He thinks, on the whole, that it's not strictly speaking a bad idea to forcibly turn all mages tranquil if the templars can't get them under control in other ways. 

I tend to agree, yet the all thing put together, act1,2 & 3, leads me to think that somehow Cullen didn't really meant what he was saying, that he was just tring to act like he was supposed to. Anyway, that's the impression he gave me at the end of the game because, between what he says and what he do, it seems there is a contradiction. But I guess I can't be sure of that with no more informations.

[Reaverwind]

iakus wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Not being a rational belief is sort of the basis for irrational fear and prejudice.

And by assaulted, you mean you were held captive for days, starved, and forced to watch as all your friends and co-workers were tortured to death in front of you?  Submitted to illusions and mental manipulations designed to crush your hope and leave you open to agreeing to anything your captors asked?  So tormented by false salvation that when rescuers did arrive you initially refused to believe they were real?

Wow.  You don't come across as old enough to have spent any time in a POW camp.  What an interesting life you must lead.

Don't forget forced to watch good mages forcibly get turned into abominations, who then proceed to join in on the torture, murder, mental manipulation, etc.

Don't forget, Cullen doesn't simply believe mages are evil and inhuman, he believes mages can be forced to become evil and inhuman.  That Act 1 quest even showed that it's possible (though more difficult) for nonmages to be turned as well.

This is what Cullen fears above all else.  

and don't forget  that not-so-little incident resulting in Thrask getting stabbed in the back. Meredith couldn't have asked for better advertising for her PoV.

[Iakus]

MWImexico wrote...

I tend to agree, yet the all thing put together, act1,2 & 3, leads me to think that somehow Cullen didn't really meant what he was saying, that he was just tring to act like he was supposed to. Anyway, that's the impression he gave me at the end of the game because, between what he says and what he do, it seems there is a contradiction. But I guess I can't be sure of that with no more informations.

Just to reiterate Cullen's attitude towards the surrendering mages if Hawke sides with the templars:

Hawke:  Is there any way to tell if they are blood mages?
Meredith:  There is not.
Cullen:  But they have not resorted to it, even to save their own livees.  Perhaps if we watched them carefully...
Meredith And if they hope to escape by playing innocent?  Will you accept that responisbility, Cullen?
Cullen:  Yes.  I believe that is what being a Templar is all about

This is not the attitude of a genocidal maniac who hates all mages.

[LobselVith8]

Nem-sis wrote...

My mundane, pro-mage Hawke disagreed with Cullen in almost every issue, as I'am against everything the Templar order stands for. However, after he calls off his army after the death of Meredith and allows myself and my apostate associates to simply walk away.... I don't think I could have brought myself to stick a dagger in his spine if given the choice, I think he would have been the one and only one Templar I would have spared.

Why exactly does Cullen only choose to oppose Meredith the moment she threatens Hawke specifically? If the Champion of Kirkwall sided with Meredith, it's understandable why Cullen would take issue with her trying to kill Hawke, but if the Champion decided to protect the mages and oppose the Right of Annulment, I don't see why the Knight-Captain would decide that this was the last straw. Hundreds of people are being condemned to death for an act they had nothing to do with, but Cullen only decides to stop Meredith when she is about to fight Hawke - a possible apostate - who has been killing every templar in his path?

And the Bethany scene would have made me inclined to kill Cullen, honestly. I stopped a rogue Hawke run simply because of how much I loathed that scene.

Nem-sis wrote...

As for blood magic making someone inherently evil I have to disagree. I fail to see how one could determine someone's moral alignment by judging an individual by their capabilities and not the actions they commit themselves.

I don't see why anyone would think that all blood mages are evil. Merrill isn't evil. Apostates who use blood magic to simply protect themselves against templars who try to kill them aren't evil. The Grey Warden mages who use blood magic aren't evil.

[AresKeith]

Ryzaki wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nem-sis wrote...

My mundane, pro-mage Hawke disagreed with Cullen in almost every issue, as I'am against everything the Templar order stands for. However, after he calls off his army after the death of Meredith and allows myself and my apostate associates to simply walk away.... I don't think I could have brought myself to stick a dagger in his spine if given the choice, I think he would have been the one and only one Templar I would have spared.

Poor Thrask... and SerBryant. ..and Ser Otto.

I'm still mad that **** Grace killed him.

Goddamned plot shield.

More reason Hawke is a failure

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chanda wrote...

You mean like he had a chance to calm down between his torture from Uldred and the statement he makes about mages cannot be treated like people? Or... What do you mean? 

Are people STILL reading into that statmenet? <_<

He is correct.
Mages aren't like normal people and they cannot be treated exactly the same.

At no point has Cullen been irrational.
He doesn't have an irrational fear or hatered for mages.

Only the most rabbid pro-magers think that, because it's playing into their preconceptions .

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 septembre 2013 - 06:21 .

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why exactly does Cullen only choose to oppose Meredith the moment she threatens Hawke specifically? If the Champion of Kirkwall sided with Meredith, it's understandable why Cullen would take issue with her trying to kill Hawke, but if the Champion decided to protect the mages and oppose the Right of Annulment, I don't see why the Knight-Captain would decide that this was the last straw. Hundreds of people are being condemned to death for an act they had nothing to do with, but Cullen only decides to stop Meredith when she is about to fight Hawke - a possible apostate - who has been killing every templar in his path?

While this specific example is one I cannot explain, I could see why Cullen would oppose Meredith's order to kill Hawke in general. The answer is that the Rite (not Right) does not apply to Hawke since Hawke is not a member of the circle.
Meredith may be, in his eyes, well within her rights to annul the circle... but she's not right to kill whomever she pleases. Maybe Hawke is a dangerous apostate, but since Hawke is not at that very moment aggressive there's no reason for summary executions. Capture aand evaluation, sure. But not execution.

It becomes the straw that breaks the camel's back. The final proof he needed to figure out that Meredith is abusing her position. All the others he could excuse, even if just barely. But this was what dispelled the illusion. Plus he knows Hawke and firmly believe that they could handle it properly.

But yeah... for some Hawke's this will break down completely. Much like how the friendship and rivalry systems work they don't so much account for what you actually did as much as score (or in this case: that you reached this point of the game).

[Hellion Rex]

AresKeith wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nem-sis wrote...

My mundane, pro-mage Hawke disagreed with Cullen in almost every issue, as I'am against everything the Templar order stands for. However, after he calls off his army after the death of Meredith and allows myself and my apostate associates to simply walk away.... I don't think I could have brought myself to stick a dagger in his spine if given the choice, I think he would have been the one and only one Templar I would have spared.

Poor Thrask... and SerBryant. ..and Ser Otto.

I'm still mad that **** Grace killed him.

Goddamned plot shield.

More reason Hawke is a failure

Hey now, don't be hatin on my Hawke. Them's fightin words!

[blackflamerose]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chanda wrote...

You mean like he had a chance to calm down between his torture from Uldred and the statement he makes about mages cannot be treated like people? Or... What do you mean? 

Are people STILL reading into that statmenet? <_<

He is correct.
Mages aren't like normal people and they cannot be treated exactly the same.

At no point has Cullen been irrational.
He doesn't have an irrational fear or hatered for mages.

Only the most rabbid pro-magers think that, because it's playing into their preconceptions .

"Mages cannot be treated like people. They're not like you and me!"

That is the quote exactly as it leaves Cullen's mouth. Now, I might have been inclined to agree with you if he'd actually said   "Mages cannot be treated like normal people. They're not like you and me!". But, instead, he says they cannot be treated like people, which gives the sentence a completely different, and much more sinister, meaning.

It's pretty much after that line that I knew I couldn't support the Templars anymore, if even a so called moderate sees mages as subhuman. And I'd been wavering over which side to support. It kinda soured me on the character, as well.

[Hellion Rex]

iakus wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

I tend to agree, yet the all thing put together, act1,2 & 3, leads me to think that somehow Cullen didn't really meant what he was saying, that he was just tring to act like he was supposed to. Anyway, that's the impression he gave me at the end of the game because, between what he says and what he do, it seems there is a contradiction. But I guess I can't be sure of that with no more informations.

Just to reiterate Cullen's attitude towards the surrendering mages if Hawke sides with the templars:

Hawke:  Is there any way to tell if they are blood mages?
Meredith:  There is not.
Cullen:  But they have not resorted to it, even to save their own livees.  Perhaps if we watched them carefully...
Meredith And if they hope to escape by playing innocent?  Will you accept that responisbility, Cullen?
Cullen:  Yes.  I believe that is what being a Templar is all about

This is not the attitude of a genocidal maniac who hates all mages.

That is interesting. As I had never played Templar side, EVER, this dialogue just scored more points in Cullen's favor. At least in my book.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Hundreds of people are being condemned to death for an act they had nothing to do with.

No Lob, hunderds are being condemened because the Circle is deemed lost. It was considered lost by many BEFORE Ander did his little terrorist act.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm still mad that **** Grace killed him.

Goddamned plot shield.

I'm still wondering why the developers thought it made any sense for Grace to kill Thrask if he fought and killed Kerras and the other templars alongside Hawke to protect the Starkhaven mages. It's like Meredith's decision to purchase a lyrium idol for reasons that are never explained, or even hinted at.

It seems like the developers got the message with Inquisition (with the talk from the creators about not trying to depict any one side as good or evil), which is why I'm hopeful that the new Dragon Age might take a step in the right direction.

[Lotion Soronarr]

blackflamerose wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chanda wrote...

You mean like he had a chance to calm down between his torture from Uldred and the statement he makes about mages cannot be treated like people? Or... What do you mean? 

Are people STILL reading into that statmenet? <_<

He is correct.
Mages aren't like normal people and they cannot be treated exactly the same.

At no point has Cullen been irrational.
He doesn't have an irrational fear or hatered for mages.

Only the most rabbid pro-magers think that, because it's playing into their preconceptions .

"Mages cannot be treated like people. They're not like you and me!"

That is the quote exactly as it leaves Cullen's mouth. Now, I might have been inclined to agree with you if he'd actually said   "Mages cannot be treated like normal people. They're not like you and me!". But, instead, he says they cannot be treated like people, which gives the sentence a completely different, and much more sinister, meaning.

It's pretty much after that line that I knew I couldn't support the Templars anymore, if even a so called moderate sees mages as subhuman. And I'd been wavering over which side to support. It kinda soured me on the character, as well.

Ever heard of brevity? The "normal" is unnecessary. Now to you that might mean "treat them worsethan animals", but that is that what HE meant?
Obviously not. Mages have rights (less than normal humans, but they still have them - something slaves do not) and he is mercifull and treats them kindly in general.

People aren't treated equally.
That is a fact of life.

And as much as mages are poeple...they also ARE living weapons...they also ARE demonic walking portals.
Nothing you say can undo that duality of their existence, and those aspects cannot be ignored due to their humanity (or vice-versa).

[Iakus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chanda wrote...

You mean like he had a chance to calm down between his torture from Uldred and the statement he makes about mages cannot be treated like people? Or... What do you mean? 

Are people STILL reading into that statmenet? <_<

He is correct.
Mages aren't like normal people and they cannot be treated exactly the same.

At no point has Cullen been irrational.
He doesn't have an irrational fear or hatered for mages.

Only the most rabbid pro-magers think that, because it's playing into their preconceptions .

It's funny how the full context of his statement is often lost:

 "True, not every mage gives into temptation.  But none are ever free of it.  At any time, any mage can become a monster, from the lowest apprentice to the most seasoned enchanters. Mages cannot be treated like people.  They are not like you and me."