935 réponses à ce sujet

[Walrider]

eluvianix wrote...

ObiWanJesus wrote...

A bit OT, but it's awesome how civil everyone overall is being, especially on a hot-button topic like the templars and mages.

More on topic, we have two cricle-sympathetic characters already; one a mage, and one a seeker. If we get a templar - whether that templar be Cullen or otherwise - it'd be interesting to seem them present a sympathetic view point to the mages.

I would find Evangeline to probably be a lot more mage sympathetic than Cullen. Cullen might, and I stress the MIGHT, be a neutral ground, since he kinda got burned by the mages in DA:O and Meredith in DAII.

Unfortunately I don't know much about the DA universe presented outside of the games, so I'll take your word on it.

Though now that you mention it, a character who is neutral, or equally cynical of both sides, could be interesting as well. Sort of like the chorus used in Roman plays.

[Laughing_Man]

ObiWanJesus wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

ObiWanJesus wrote...

A bit OT, but it's awesome how civil everyone overall is being, especially on a hot-button topic like the templars and mages.

More on topic, we have two cricle-sympathetic characters already; one a mage, and one a seeker. If we get a templar - whether that templar be Cullen or otherwise - it'd be interesting to seem them present a sympathetic view point to the mages.

I would find Evangeline to probably be a lot more mage sympathetic than Cullen. Cullen might, and I stress the MIGHT, be a neutral ground, since he kinda got burned by the mages in DA:O and Meredith in DAII.

Unfortunately I don't know much about the DA universe presented outside of the games, so I'll take your word on it.

Though now that you mention it, a character who is neutral, or equally cynical of both sides, could be interesting as well. Sort of like the chorus used in Roman plays.

Well, it seems that Varric is kinda neutral \\ cynical from his comments in DA2, so it looks like you will get your wish... (assuming he didn't change his mind in the meantime)

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...
Equal share? You're kinder than I am. As their commander, he had the power to try to put a stop to it, by getting his men in order. If Meredith overruled him, he could have gone to the Grand Cleric herself - his position was high enough to obtain an audience, at least. Especially if Hawke as a peasant could see the Grand Cleric when she was about in the Chantry.

The scant pity I feel for him prevents me from saying he deserves to be made to suffer like the mages under his care were made to suffer.

Is it really normal? Cullen himself suggests that his views are in the minority in Kirkwall. 

Well Cullen perceives himself as being among a persecuted minority, but what I see of Kirkwall elsewhere leads me to believe that's not the case.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Trauma is not an excuse for bigotry - buis it an excuse for a violent rebellion?

If a group is treated like crap and opressed simply for being born?Yes it is.

[Vit246]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Trauma is not an excuse for bigotry - buis it an excuse for a violent rebellion?

Its more than just trauma. Its over 900 years of subjugation with little real legal rights or peaceful recourse, whatever there are at the sufferance of the Chantry and their Templar military branch. And then the atrocities. Just recently, the entire Circle of Rivain was annuled because it was discovered that the mages there were freely interacting with families and training their own to become seers (symbiotic possession). No diplomacy, no compromise, just an extermination.

How can you not violently rebell against this?

Modifié par Vit246, 22 septembre 2013 - 04:01 .

[wolfhowwl]

"symbiotic possession"

No. They were abominations.

[Laughing_Man]

wolfhowwl wrote...

"symbiotic possession"

No. They were abominations.

I didn't read the book, but would you consider Wynne an abomination also?
The problem is not if a mage has an "extra" or not, but rather if he is in control of his mind or not.

[Vit246]

wolfhowwl wrote...

"symbiotic possession"

No. They were abominations.

Abominations like Uldred? Or Wynne or even Anders if he wasn't so emotionally unstable?

Modifié par Vit246, 22 septembre 2013 - 04:28 .

[dragonflight288]

Unfortunately I don't know much about the DA universe presented outside of the games, so I'll take your word on it.

Though now that you mention it, a character who is neutral, or equally cynical of both sides, could be interesting as well. Sort of like the chorus used in Greek plays.

Fixed.

But yeah, Evangeline is a really cool templar. She criticizes the templars as a whole for the use of phylacteries, and calls phylacteries a form of blood magic, but at the same time, she turns around and gives mages a good finger-wagging when they get too big for their britches.

She unfortunately is killed by Lambert.

Cullen....I'm really curious on where he goes as a character from where we left off. He suffered the worst that mages can throw at him, and he's seen the templars grievously abuse their authority over mages and Meredith get way too involved with politics that by Act 3, I couldn't even identify the civil problems as separate from the chantry ones.

Example: Templars now guarding the Viscount's Keep and Meredith acting as defacto Viscount for three years, the templars trying to oust Aveline from the Guard Captaincy so they can consolidate power, Meredith outright stating that she is the only one qualified to declare when she can step down and none other, and she vetoes the city running itself or keeping anyone from stepping forward to try and take Marlowe Dumar's place.

Add in Dumar's codex entry (read it today while repalying DA2) specifically says in the first line that it was the Chantry that put him in power, I don't see why Elthina couldn't get involved and help ease the transition and put someone else's name forward.

Cullen has probably gone through more than any other npc in the games, and it'll be fascinating to see how he develops as a character as a result.

On a side note: I was completely unimpressed by his incompetence as Knight-Captain. I presented evidence to him that Anders was planning something, and had Anders with me at the same time, and nothing is done. I let him know I know of Alrik's tranquil solution and have evidence that it's happening, and he ignores it (so does Elthina.)

[Laughing_Man]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Unfortunately I don't know much about the DA universe presented outside of the games, so I'll take your word on it.

Though now that you mention it, a character who is neutral, or equally cynical of both sides, could be interesting as well. Sort of like the chorus used in Greek plays.

Fixed.

But yeah, Evangeline is a really cool templar. She criticizes the templars as a whole for the use of phylacteries, and calls phylacteries a form of blood magic, but at the same time, she turns around and gives mages a good finger-wagging when they get too big for their britches.

She unfortunately is killed by Lambert.

Cullen....I'm really curious on where he goes as a character from where we left off. He suffered the worst that mages can throw at him, and he's seen the templars grievously abuse their authority over mages and Meredith get way too involved with politics that by Act 3, I couldn't even identify the civil problems as separate from the chantry ones.

Example: Templars now guarding the Viscount's Keep and Meredith acting as defacto Viscount for three years, the templars trying to oust Aveline from the Guard Captaincy so they can consolidate power, Meredith outright stating that she is the only one qualified to declare when she can step down and none other, and she vetoes the city running itself or keeping anyone from stepping forward to try and take Marlowe Dumar's place.

Add in Dumar's codex entry (read it today while repalying DA2) specifically says in the first line that it was the Chantry that put him in power, I don't see why Elthina couldn't get involved and help ease the transition and put someone else's name forward.

Cullen has probably gone through more than any other npc in the games, and it'll be fascinating to see how he develops as a character as a result.

On a side note: I was completely unimpressed by his incompetence as Knight-Captain. I presented evidence to him that Anders was planning something, and had Anders with me at the same time, and nothing is done. I let him know I know of Alrik's tranquil solution and have evidence that it's happening, and he ignores it (so does Elthina.)

Huh. I had no idea you can talk to him about those things.

[dragonflight288]

TheRedVipress wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Unfortunately I don't know much about the DA universe presented outside of the games, so I'll take your word on it.

Though now that you mention it, a character who is neutral, or equally cynical of both sides, could be interesting as well. Sort of like the chorus used in Greek plays.

Fixed.

But yeah, Evangeline is a really cool templar. She criticizes the templars as a whole for the use of phylacteries, and calls phylacteries a form of blood magic, but at the same time, she turns around and gives mages a good finger-wagging when they get too big for their britches.

She unfortunately is killed by Lambert.

Cullen....I'm really curious on where he goes as a character from where we left off. He suffered the worst that mages can throw at him, and he's seen the templars grievously abuse their authority over mages and Meredith get way too involved with politics that by Act 3, I couldn't even identify the civil problems as separate from the chantry ones.

Example: Templars now guarding the Viscount's Keep and Meredith acting as defacto Viscount for three years, the templars trying to oust Aveline from the Guard Captaincy so they can consolidate power, Meredith outright stating that she is the only one qualified to declare when she can step down and none other, and she vetoes the city running itself or keeping anyone from stepping forward to try and take Marlowe Dumar's place.

Add in Dumar's codex entry (read it today while repalying DA2) specifically says in the first line that it was the Chantry that put him in power, I don't see why Elthina couldn't get involved and help ease the transition and put someone else's name forward.

Cullen has probably gone through more than any other npc in the games, and it'll be fascinating to see how he develops as a character as a result.

On a side note: I was completely unimpressed by his incompetence as Knight-Captain. I presented evidence to him that Anders was planning something, and had Anders with me at the same time, and nothing is done. I let him know I know of Alrik's tranquil solution and have evidence that it's happening, and he ignores it (so does Elthina.)

Huh. I had no idea you can talk to him about those things.

Yeah. You can take Alric's letter and go talk to him about it, and he'll pretty much stay on the fence, but it's heavily implied that he approves the plan. Take it Elthina, and she'll question how you came to know about a murder in the Gallows when we shouldn't have access...and leave it there.

And yeah, after doing Anders' quest, you can take him to Cullen, and warn him you think there's a plot against the Grand Cleric and the Chantry. Cullen will ignore it, or at least, not take it seriously.

[Plaintiff]

wolfhowwl wrote...

"symbiotic possession"

No. They were abominations.

So what? If an abomination doesn't hurt anyone, it's not a problem.

[dragonflight288]

Plaintiff wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

"symbiotic possession"

No. They were abominations.

So what? If an abomination doesn't hurt anyone, it's not a problem.

Talking to Wynne in Origins, and you can come up with what makes an abomination. Madness and lack of ability to reason has to be present, with cruelty also a likely outcome. If those things are not present, then the mage is not an abomination.

[Laughing_Man]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Unfortunately I don't know much about the DA universe presented outside of the games, so I'll take your word on it.

Though now that you mention it, a character who is neutral, or equally cynical of both sides, could be interesting as well. Sort of like the chorus used in Greek plays.

Fixed.

But yeah, Evangeline is a really cool templar. She criticizes the templars as a whole for the use of phylacteries, and calls phylacteries a form of blood magic, but at the same time, she turns around and gives mages a good finger-wagging when they get too big for their britches.

She unfortunately is killed by Lambert.

Cullen....I'm really curious on where he goes as a character from where we left off. He suffered the worst that mages can throw at him, and he's seen the templars grievously abuse their authority over mages and Meredith get way too involved with politics that by Act 3, I couldn't even identify the civil problems as separate from the chantry ones.

Example: Templars now guarding the Viscount's Keep and Meredith acting as defacto Viscount for three years, the templars trying to oust Aveline from the Guard Captaincy so they can consolidate power, Meredith outright stating that she is the only one qualified to declare when she can step down and none other, and she vetoes the city running itself or keeping anyone from stepping forward to try and take Marlowe Dumar's place.

Add in Dumar's codex entry (read it today while repalying DA2) specifically says in the first line that it was the Chantry that put him in power, I don't see why Elthina couldn't get involved and help ease the transition and put someone else's name forward.

Cullen has probably gone through more than any other npc in the games, and it'll be fascinating to see how he develops as a character as a result.

On a side note: I was completely unimpressed by his incompetence as Knight-Captain. I presented evidence to him that Anders was planning something, and had Anders with me at the same time, and nothing is done. I let him know I know of Alrik's tranquil solution and have evidence that it's happening, and he ignores it (so does Elthina.)

Huh. I had no idea you can talk to him about those things.

Yeah. You can take Alric's letter and go talk to him about it, and he'll pretty much stay on the fence, but it's heavily implied that he approves the plan. Take it Elthina, and she'll question how you came to know about a murder in the Gallows when we shouldn't have access...and leave it there.

And yeah, after doing Anders' quest, you can take him to Cullen, and warn him you think there's a plot against the Grand Cleric and the Chantry. Cullen will ignore it, or at least, not take it seriously.

That just underlines the fact that the chantry's system is just as incompetent as it is evil.
(or that they all approved of the "radicals" secretly, and hoped that Anders would give them an excuse to do something more "final-solution" style.)

[Hellion Rex]

TheRedVipress wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Unfortunately I don't know much about the DA universe presented outside of the games, so I'll take your word on it.

Though now that you mention it, a character who is neutral, or equally cynical of both sides, could be interesting as well. Sort of like the chorus used in Greek plays.

Fixed.

But yeah, Evangeline is a really cool templar. She criticizes the templars as a whole for the use of phylacteries, and calls phylacteries a form of blood magic, but at the same time, she turns around and gives mages a good finger-wagging when they get too big for their britches.

She unfortunately is killed by Lambert.

Cullen....I'm really curious on where he goes as a character from where we left off. He suffered the worst that mages can throw at him, and he's seen the templars grievously abuse their authority over mages and Meredith get way too involved with politics that by Act 3, I couldn't even identify the civil problems as separate from the chantry ones.

Example: Templars now guarding the Viscount's Keep and Meredith acting as defacto Viscount for three years, the templars trying to oust Aveline from the Guard Captaincy so they can consolidate power, Meredith outright stating that she is the only one qualified to declare when she can step down and none other, and she vetoes the city running itself or keeping anyone from stepping forward to try and take Marlowe Dumar's place.

Add in Dumar's codex entry (read it today while repalying DA2) specifically says in the first line that it was the Chantry that put him in power, I don't see why Elthina couldn't get involved and help ease the transition and put someone else's name forward.

Cullen has probably gone through more than any other npc in the games, and it'll be fascinating to see how he develops as a character as a result.

On a side note: I was completely unimpressed by his incompetence as Knight-Captain. I presented evidence to him that Anders was planning something, and had Anders with me at the same time, and nothing is done. I let him know I know of Alrik's tranquil solution and have evidence that it's happening, and he ignores it (so does Elthina.)

Huh. I had no idea you can talk to him about those things.

Yeah. You can take Alric's letter and go talk to him about it, and he'll pretty much stay on the fence, but it's heavily implied that he approves the plan. Take it Elthina, and she'll question how you came to know about a murder in the Gallows when we shouldn't have access...and leave it there.

And yeah, after doing Anders' quest, you can take him to Cullen, and warn him you think there's a plot against the Grand Cleric and the Chantry. Cullen will ignore it, or at least, not take it seriously.

That just underlines the fact that the chantry's system is just as incompetent as it is evil.
(or that they all approved of the "radicals" secretly, and hoped that Anders would give them an excuse to do something more "final-solution" style.)

I don't think Chantry doctrine in and of itself is evil. I would argue however that it is certainly flawed. Some of the people in the organization are certainly evil however.

[Laughing_Man]

eluvianix wrote...

I don't think Chantry doctrine in and of itself is evil. I would argue however that it is certainly flawed. Some of the people in the organization are certainly evil however.

*Shrug* If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

It's funny how I can't decide which religion is worse, the Chantry or the Qun.

[wolfhowwl]

On a side note: I was completely unimpressed by his incompetence as Knight-Captain. I presented evidence to him that Anders was planning something, and had Anders with me at the same time, and nothing is done. I let him know I know of Alrik's tranquil solution and have evidence that it's happening, and he ignores it (so does Elthina.)

oh ho, allowing the player or Cullen to do something about anders would disrupt the EPIC story bioware wanted to tell and require effort on their part.

[Laughing_Man]

wolfhowwl wrote...

On a side note: I was completely unimpressed by his incompetence as Knight-Captain. I presented evidence to him that Anders was planning something, and had Anders with me at the same time, and nothing is done. I let him know I know of Alrik's tranquil solution and have evidence that it's happening, and he ignores it (so does Elthina.)

oh ho, allowing the player or Cullen to do something about anders would disrupt the EPIC story bioware wanted to tell and require effort on their part.

Not really.
Anders just runs away and does his thing anyway. End of story. AND you lost a healer for the rest of the game...

[Reaverwind]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Unfortunately I don't know much about the DA universe presented outside of the games, so I'll take your word on it.

Though now that you mention it, a character who is neutral, or equally cynical of both sides, could be interesting as well. Sort of like the chorus used in Greek plays.

Fixed.

But yeah, Evangeline is a really cool templar. She criticizes the templars as a whole for the use of phylacteries, and calls phylacteries a form of blood magic, but at the same time, she turns around and gives mages a good finger-wagging when they get too big for their britches.

She unfortunately is killed by Lambert.

Cullen....I'm really curious on where he goes as a character from where we left off. He suffered the worst that mages can throw at him, and he's seen the templars grievously abuse their authority over mages and Meredith get way too involved with politics that by Act 3, I couldn't even identify the civil problems as separate from the chantry ones.

Example: Templars now guarding the Viscount's Keep and Meredith acting as defacto Viscount for three years, the templars trying to oust Aveline from the Guard Captaincy so they can consolidate power, Meredith outright stating that she is the only one qualified to declare when she can step down and none other, and she vetoes the city running itself or keeping anyone from stepping forward to try and take Marlowe Dumar's place.

Add in Dumar's codex entry (read it today while repalying DA2) specifically says in the first line that it was the Chantry that put him in power, I don't see why Elthina couldn't get involved and help ease the transition and put someone else's name forward.

Are you kidding? The previous viscount died under suspicious circumstances under her watch. The Templars seized power under her watch. Now why the heck would she rock the boat? Say what you will about Cullen, he does manage to call it when he observes to the player that it's cruel of her to lead the mages on.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 22 septembre 2013 - 05:11 .

[LobselVith8]

TheRedVipress wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

On a side note: I was completely unimpressed by his incompetence as Knight-Captain. I presented evidence to him that Anders was planning something, and had Anders with me at the same time, and nothing is done. I let him know I know of Alrik's tranquil solution and have evidence that it's happening, and he ignores it (so does Elthina.)

Huh. I had no idea you can talk to him about those things. 

If you're curious, you can see the Cullen scene here, where Hawke warns him Anders' plot, and here, where he talks about the Tranquil Solution.

[Laughing_Man]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

On a side note: I was completely unimpressed by his incompetence as Knight-Captain. I presented evidence to him that Anders was planning something, and had Anders with me at the same time, and nothing is done. I let him know I know of Alrik's tranquil solution and have evidence that it's happening, and he ignores it (so does Elthina.)

Huh. I had no idea you can talk to him about those things. 

If you're curious, you can see the Cullen scene here, where Hawke warns him Anders' plot, and here, where he talks about the Tranquil Solution.

Thanks. I'll check that out.

[Trolldrool]

How come everytime anyone wants a pro-templar templar in their party, everyone automatically assumes we're die-hard Chantry fanboys who believe the templars are right to oppress mages? I want a templar for the dialogue potential. Because I think they might offer an interesting perspective on the whole veil being torn asunder, whether I disagree with that perspective or not. And because templars are pretty handy in a fight with demons.

Modifié par Trolldrool, 22 septembre 2013 - 06:07 .

[The Six Path of Pain]

Silfren wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

You mean like he had a chance to calm down between his torture from Uldred and the statement he makes about mages cannot be treated like people? Or... What do you mean?

Yeah, the main reason why I asked is because I don't remember where/when he says the line.

The closer it is to the act, the less time he has had to process what has gone on.


(although I believe the timing is some time after, from what someone else had told me).

Cullen says that line in Act 1 after finishing the quest 'Enemies Among Us'. You know, the one where after Hawke tells him that his recruits may be possed he says that epic "Sweet blood of Andraste' line lol...So one to one and half years after the Uldred incident.

I don't think you can say one to one 1/2 years definitively, actually.  Ending the Blight took about a year to year and a half, and Hawke fled Lothering just as it was beginning.  The beginning of Act 1, being a year afterward, is more or less concurrent with the end of the Blight.  It gets tricky, since you can do the quests in any order, and the storyline has a clunky way of referencing the passage of time, but I'd say only a few months at most.

It doesn't help that when you talk to Wynne--and you can only do this at some point after Broken Circle--she says something about nearly a year having gone by.

I was merely going by the timeline, since it says that The Blight ending and Varric discovering the Red Lyrium both happened in 9:31 Dragon. Then again I get what your saying. Bioware has a habit of effing up their own timeline.

[dragonflight288]

How come everytime anyone wants a pro-templar templar in their party, everyone automatically assumes we're die-hard Chantry fanboys who believe the templars are right to oppress mages? I want a templar for the dialogue potential. Because I think they might offer an interesting perspective on the whole veil being torn asunder, whether I disagree with that perspective or not. And because templars are pretty handy in a fight with demons.

Not everyone. But the Chantry's stance on mages has long been "control them. If that fails, kill them. They have no rights and no choices."

A full-fledged templar companion would add some interesting dialogue, but how much a fanatic, or how much do they believe in templar practices, may or may not add much weight. In the end, we may end up with just another Fenris, someone who is extremely biased on one side of the argument and may end up telling us things we've already heard before.

But if they're more moderate, like Evangeline, then that would be perfectly fine.

[dragonflight288]

Are you kidding? The previous viscount died under suspicious circumstances under her watch. The Templars seized power under her watch. Now why the heck would she rock the boat? Say what you will about Cullen, he does manage to call it when he observes to the player that it's cruel of her to lead the mages on.

And that leads me exactly to my point. Elthina isn't looking out for what's best for Kirkwall. She's looking out for what's best for the Chantry's position. And if she is looking out for Kirkwall, then she is extremely incompetent.

She could ease things and remove Meredith from political power, power that she shouldn't have as a templar anyway (Imnirick from Origins, gave up his noble status and rights to be a bann in favor of Alfstana and became a templar) but she doesn't.

There's no other way around it. Either she covertly supports Meredith, or she is blatantly incompetent. Either way, the Chantry needs to be removed from all political spheres.