935 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
But if they're more moderate, like Evangeline, then that would be perfectly fine.

Evangeline. Is. Not. A. Moderate.

It grows tiresome to hear people exalt her when she is, in fact, the very worst Templar. By the end of Asunder, she managed to give every mage the freedom to do whatever they wish to whoever they wish whenever they wish; because she can't bloody well keep every mage in Thedas under control by herself: and also helped to start a war that is going to engulf the entire continent. "Kill all mages" is just as much an extremist position as "Free all mages".
Evangeline is a traitor to every non-magical person in Thedas and every drop of blood spilled in this war is on her hands. Hopefully, she'll be tried and executed.

This right here is why I don't like Pro Templar extremists.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
I disagree that they betrayed their own people. You're basically stating that every mage, because of being a mage, automatically feels identifyied with the mages as a group instead of just thinking of himself as an individual with a certain trait, and that the same goes for non mages. You're pushing people into categories they're suposed to have some sort of loyalty to simply because the way they were born.

Such is the world. Exceptions exist but people form groups to which they are drawn to, identify with, have loyalty towards and, ultimately, wish to live amidst. These groups may be formed on biological, cultural or ideological basis but they always exist.
In Thedas, two such groups are normals and mages. They live apart, follow different cultural norms and are biologically distinct. In endagering every single normal in Thedas for the sake of the mages, Evangeline and others have betrayed their people.

Non mages and mages both bleed the same color,they both have the same feelings and the same bodies as everyone else.Sorry but your logic is the logic that bigots used back during the Jim Crow Era where they called other whites who supported civil rights traitors to their people.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
I disagree that they betrayed their own people. You're basically stating that every mage, because of being a mage, automatically feels identifyied with the mages as a group instead of just thinking of himself as an individual with a certain trait, and that the same goes for non mages. You're pushing people into categories they're suposed to have some sort of loyalty to simply because the way they were born.

Such is the world. Exceptions exist but people form groups to which they are drawn to, identify with, have loyalty towards and, ultimately, wish to live amidst. These groups may be formed on biological, cultural or ideological basis but they always exist.
In Thedas, two such groups are normals and mages. They live apart, follow different cultural norms and are biologically distinct. In endagering every single normal in Thedas for the sake of the mages, Evangeline and others have betrayed their people.

Non mages and mages both bleed the same color,they both have the same feelings and the same bodies as everyone else.Sorry,but your logic is the logic that bigots used back during the Jim Crow Era where they called other whites who supported civil rights traitors to their people.

[Reaverwind]

I don't want Evangeline for the simple fact that we've already done the possessed companion schtick in 2 games.

[cjones91]

MasterScribe wrote...

I still think a dwarf templar would be awesome.

The Chantry needs some mercenary muscle.

Dwarves don't need to be templars because they are naturally resistent to magic and they don't give one f*ck about the Chantry aside from selling them lyrium.

[Br3admax]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
I disagree that they betrayed their own people. You're basically stating that every mage, because of being a mage, automatically feels identifyied with the mages as a group instead of just thinking of himself as an individual with a certain trait, and that the same goes for non mages. You're pushing people into categories they're suposed to have some sort of loyalty to simply because the way they were born.

Such is the world. Exceptions exist but people form groups to which they are drawn to, identify with, have loyalty towards and, ultimately, wish to live amidst. These groups may be formed on biological, cultural or ideological basis but they always exist.
In Thedas, two such groups are normals and mages. They live apart, follow different cultural norms and are biologically distinct. In endagering every single normal in Thedas for the sake of the mages, Evangeline and others have betrayed their people.

Non mages and mages both bleed the same color,they both have the same feelings and the same bodies as everyone else.Sorry,but your logic is the logic that bigots used back during the Jim Crow Era where they called other whites who supported civil rights traitors to their people.

Mages can kill you with a thought. In my personal experience, no racial group can do that. They are distinct.  

Modifié par Br3ad, 22 septembre 2013 - 05:25 .

[Plaintiff]

MWImexico wrote...
Tranquils are different in their way of thinking. Maybe they thought it is safer to not talk about their agressions to an other templar? Or maybe they are like Carl who betrays Anders since he is made trankil? There are a lots of reason why a mage will rather talk to Hawke of his problem than to the Knight-Captain, especialy if he was threaten to death if he does so.

WHy CUllen is ignorant doesn't really matter. It is his job to be aware of the actions of his subordinates. The mages shouldn't have to inform him, he should be checking on the templars regularly (and even doing surprise inspections), to make sure they are behaving themselves.

My problem is, even in Asunder, there are abuses, ok. But you see Evangeline, a nice little templar doing her job in the begining of the book. And she doesn't seems to realise those abuses exist. It could be compared to a jail where some guardians are abusers but the director doesn't know about it, because the law of silence is applied.   

What is Evangeline's rank? If she's just a rank-and-file Templar, then it's not her job to know what other Templars get up to. Cullen was a Knight-Captain, Meredith's second in command, it is his job to know what his subordinates are up to, and he is simply not doing it.

[cjones91]

Plaintiff wrote...

MWImexico wrote...
Tranquils are different in their way of thinking. Maybe they thought it is safer to not talk about their agressions to an other templar? Or maybe they are like Carl who betrays Anders since he is made trankil? There are a lots of reason why a mage will rather talk to Hawke of his problem than to the Knight-Captain, especialy if he was threaten to death if he does so.

WHy CUllen is ignorant doesn't really matter. It is his job to be aware of the actions of his subordinates. The mages shouldn't have to inform him, he should be checking on the templars regularly (and even doing surprise inspections), to make sure they are behaving themselves.

My problem is, even in Asunder, there are abuses, ok. But you see Evangeline, a nice little templar doing her job in the begining of the book. And she doesn't seems to realise those abuses exist. It could be compared to a jail where some guardians are abusers but the director doesn't know about it, because the law of silence is applied.   

What is Evangeline's rank? If she's just a rank-and-file Templar, then it's not her job to know what other Templars get up to. Cullen was a Knight-Captain, Meredith's second in command, it is his job to know what his subordinates are up to, and he is simply not doing it.

Evangeline was a Knight-Captain but Lambert stripped her of her rank after the business from Adamant.Not to mention he stonewalled Evangeline many times and often tried to bully her when she objected to something.

[cjones91]

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
I disagree that they betrayed their own people. You're basically stating that every mage, because of being a mage, automatically feels identifyied with the mages as a group instead of just thinking of himself as an individual with a certain trait, and that the same goes for non mages. You're pushing people into categories they're suposed to have some sort of loyalty to simply because the way they were born.

Such is the world. Exceptions exist but people form groups to which they are drawn to, identify with, have loyalty towards and, ultimately, wish to live amidst. These groups may be formed on biological, cultural or ideological basis but they always exist.
In Thedas, two such groups are normals and mages. They live apart, follow different cultural norms and are biologically distinct. In endagering every single normal in Thedas for the sake of the mages, Evangeline and others have betrayed their people.

Non mages and mages both bleed the same color,they both have the same feelings and the same bodies as everyone else.Sorry,but your logic is the logic that bigots used back during the Jim Crow Era where they called other whites who supported civil rights traitors to their people.

Mages can kill you with a thought. In my personal experience, no racial group can do that. They are distinct.  

Only blood mages can kill people with a thought,besides the two groups aren't that different aside from one side having magic.

[Hellion Rex]

Reaverwind wrote...

I don't want Evangeline for the simple fact that we've already done the possessed companion schtick in 2 games.

I would argue that Evangeline is similar to Wynne, in that we do not see much of the spirit within, except for extraordinary circumstances. Anders however is the complete opposite.

[Iakus]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
But if they're more moderate, like Evangeline, then that would be perfectly fine.

Evangeline. Is. Not. A. Moderate.

It grows tiresome to hear people exalt her when she is, in fact, the very worst Templar. By the end of Asunder, she managed to give every mage the freedom to do whatever they wish to whoever they wish whenever they wish; because she can't bloody well keep every mage in Thedas under control by herself: and also helped to start a war that is going to engulf the entire continent. "Kill all mages" is just as much an extremist position as "Free all mages".
Evangeline is a traitor to every non-magical person in Thedas and every drop of blood spilled in this war is on her hands. Hopefully, she'll be tried and executed.

Evangeline saved every mage in White Spire from being butchered or made tranquil thanks to the paranoia of the Lord Seeker and the political machinations of a senior enchanter.  They were gathered peacefully and with the personal permission of the Divine.

The "kill all mages" war was already going on, thanks to Lambert and Fiona (and Anders and Meredith).  Evangeline simply saved a bunch of innocent victims, keeping it from becoming a total slaughter.  That's her job, as a templar.  Both to protect regular people from mages, and to protect mages from other people.  All too many templars and Seeker have forgotten that part of their duty

[Hellion Rex]

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
I disagree that they betrayed their own people. You're basically stating that every mage, because of being a mage, automatically feels identifyied with the mages as a group instead of just thinking of himself as an individual with a certain trait, and that the same goes for non mages. You're pushing people into categories they're suposed to have some sort of loyalty to simply because the way they were born.

Such is the world. Exceptions exist but people form groups to which they are drawn to, identify with, have loyalty towards and, ultimately, wish to live amidst. These groups may be formed on biological, cultural or ideological basis but they always exist.
In Thedas, two such groups are normals and mages. They live apart, follow different cultural norms and are biologically distinct. In endagering every single normal in Thedas for the sake of the mages, Evangeline and others have betrayed their people.

Non mages and mages both bleed the same color,they both have the same feelings and the same bodies as everyone else.Sorry,but your logic is the logic that bigots used back during the Jim Crow Era where they called other whites who supported civil rights traitors to their people.

Mages can kill you with a thought. In my personal experience, no racial group can do that. They are distinct.  

Only blood mages can kill people with a thought,besides the two groups aren't that different aside from one side having magic.

What about spirit mages? And entropic mages? Waking Nightmare? Crushing Prison?

[Hellion Rex]

iakus wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
But if they're more moderate, like Evangeline, then that would be perfectly fine.

Evangeline. Is. Not. A. Moderate.

It grows tiresome to hear people exalt her when she is, in fact, the very worst Templar. By the end of Asunder, she managed to give every mage the freedom to do whatever they wish to whoever they wish whenever they wish; because she can't bloody well keep every mage in Thedas under control by herself: and also helped to start a war that is going to engulf the entire continent. "Kill all mages" is just as much an extremist position as "Free all mages".
Evangeline is a traitor to every non-magical person in Thedas and every drop of blood spilled in this war is on her hands. Hopefully, she'll be tried and executed.

Evangeline saved every mage in White Spire from being butchered or made tranquil thanks to the paranoia of the Lord Seeker and the political machinations of a senior enchanter.  They were gathered peacefully and with the personal permission of the Divine.

The "kill all mages" war was already going on, thanks to Lambert and Fiona (and Anders and Meredith).  Evangeline simply saved a bunch of innocent victims, keeping it from becoming a total slaughter.  That's her job, as a templar.  Both to protect regular people from mages, and to protect mages from other people.  All too many templars and Seeker have forgotten that part of their duty

I agree. I don't think there is a better definition of why she IS a moderate.

[cjones91]

eluvianix wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
I disagree that they betrayed their own people. You're basically stating that every mage, because of being a mage, automatically feels identifyied with the mages as a group instead of just thinking of himself as an individual with a certain trait, and that the same goes for non mages. You're pushing people into categories they're suposed to have some sort of loyalty to simply because the way they were born.

Such is the world. Exceptions exist but people form groups to which they are drawn to, identify with, have loyalty towards and, ultimately, wish to live amidst. These groups may be formed on biological, cultural or ideological basis but they always exist.
In Thedas, two such groups are normals and mages. They live apart, follow different cultural norms and are biologically distinct. In endagering every single normal in Thedas for the sake of the mages, Evangeline and others have betrayed their people.

Non mages and mages both bleed the same color,they both have the same feelings and the same bodies as everyone else.Sorry,but your logic is the logic that bigots used back during the Jim Crow Era where they called other whites who supported civil rights traitors to their people.

Mages can kill you with a thought. In my personal experience, no racial group can do that. They are distinct.  

Only blood mages can kill people with a thought,besides the two groups aren't that different aside from one side having magic.

What about spirit mages? And entropic mages? Waking Nightmare? Crushing Prison?

Spirit Mages are mostly healers,entrophy magic is probaly only available in certain groups of magic users and those two spells are not very common since only very experienced mages know them.

[cjones91]

eluvianix wrote...

iakus wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
But if they're more moderate, like Evangeline, then that would be perfectly fine.

Evangeline. Is. Not. A. Moderate.

It grows tiresome to hear people exalt her when she is, in fact, the very worst Templar. By the end of Asunder, she managed to give every mage the freedom to do whatever they wish to whoever they wish whenever they wish; because she can't bloody well keep every mage in Thedas under control by herself: and also helped to start a war that is going to engulf the entire continent. "Kill all mages" is just as much an extremist position as "Free all mages".
Evangeline is a traitor to every non-magical person in Thedas and every drop of blood spilled in this war is on her hands. Hopefully, she'll be tried and executed.

Evangeline saved every mage in White Spire from being butchered or made tranquil thanks to the paranoia of the Lord Seeker and the political machinations of a senior enchanter.  They were gathered peacefully and with the personal permission of the Divine.

The "kill all mages" war was already going on, thanks to Lambert and Fiona (and Anders and Meredith).  Evangeline simply saved a bunch of innocent victims, keeping it from becoming a total slaughter.  That's her job, as a templar.  Both to protect regular people from mages, and to protect mages from other people.  All too many templars and Seeker have forgotten that part of their duty

I agree. I don't think there is a better definition of why she IS a moderate.

To extremists moderates are traitors by definition.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...
Only blood mages can kill people with a thought,besides the two groups aren't that different aside from one side having magic.

That is VERY much different.

And please, don't bring up any RL racial/religious group - those things don't apply and any comparison is utterly flawed.

[MWImexico]

Sir JK wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I don't think the abuses that occured for 7 years would be possible without the majority of her men to be fanatics like her. It's not as if she was ordering Alrik and Karras to rape mages. 

Quite the opposite actually. You don't need a majority of the men being fanatics. You just need them to be loyal and satisfied, because then they won't look for faults. Especially not when there's an enemy opposing them. It's positively trivial to hide ruthless and callous people in a organisation for a very long time, especially if they're efficient.

Alrik and Kerras don't tell their higherups the wrongs they do, and bad people often group up so they can vouch for one another. Those two men pick their men and make them loyal to them by giving them what they want and/or blackmail. Since they're responsible for reporting what they do to their higher ups, this makes it positively trivial for them to hide in an organisation that may or may not tolerate their excesses.

As long as they get results, noone will look too closely at them. Out of loyalty. Out of tradition. Out of contentment. Change is uncomfortable, and finding faults makes you a troublemaker. This is why IRL there's a need for military police or Internal affairs departments. Why bosses are frequently recruited from outside an organisation and so forth. To break these patterns.

So we have a Knight-Commander that cares about results first and formost. A Knight-Captain that's traumatized and desperate for something safer than Ferelden, blaming his experiences on what he percieves as a lack of security.  Neither of them are particularily interested in hearing about faults in their organisation.

Kerras specializes in hunting dangerous and hard to catch apostates. His own men will be the only witnesses to his excesses. Alrik has a loyal squad so same there (and I fear he's probably the templar in charge of tranquility and evaluation).

Their activities could be hidden for decades if they know what they're doing (which they seem to do) and noone evaluates them.

EDIT: Compare it with Uldred... who was given the responsibility to weed out blood mages from under the templar's nose. Which allowed him to build his conspiracy with noone none the wiser. It's the same. And not one of us blames the Kirkwall tower or Irving for Uldred's coup.

Thanks for these explanations. This makes sense for me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheRedVipress wrote...
I'll say again what I said before:
Creating a powerfull police force armed with anti-magic "technology" and sympathetic mages to handle the inevitable magical crimes? sure.

Whole-sale oppression of anyone born with magic? It's both criminally insane and needlessly cruel.

A police force that can only come the the ruins of the city and say "yup, a mage did this" is of no use to anyone.

There's no way to lower the body count without segregating mages.

[Lotion Soronarr]

In Exile wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No Lob, hunderds are being condemened because the Circle is deemed lost. It was considered lost by many BEFORE Ander did his little terrorist act.

So you're actually on record for supporting the ROA before Anders did anything?

I'm on the record for saying exactly what I said and nothing more.

Anderses little act in the end didn't change much. Meredith (and many others) already though the circle was corrupt.
Time and time again we were shown that her belief was not not based on nothing. Blood mage activity was rampant. The cirlce was corrupted. You can certanly argue that it wasn't beyond saving - personally I'd agree, but there's no way to tell really - but that's beside the point.

[Vilegrim]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
But if they're more moderate, like Evangeline, then that would be perfectly fine.

Evangeline. Is. Not. A. Moderate.

It grows tiresome to hear people exalt her when she is, in fact, the very worst Templar. By the end of Asunder, she managed to give every mage the freedom to do whatever they wish to whoever they wish whenever they wish; because she can't bloody well keep every mage in Thedas under control by herself: and also helped to start a war that is going to engulf the entire continent. "Kill all mages" is just as much an extremist position as "Free all mages".
Evangeline is a traitor to every non-magical person in Thedas and every drop of blood spilled in this war is on her hands. Hopefully, she'll be tried and executed.

This right here is why I don't like Pro Templar extremists.

The blood is on the hands of the templars for enslaving mages for being born with the talent, they and the maker cult that supports them deserve nothing less than to all be made tranquil, or be burned at the stake, their choice.

[In Exile]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No Lob, hunderds are being condemened because the Circle is deemed lost. It was considered lost by many BEFORE Ander did his little terrorist act.

So you're actually on record for supporting the ROA before Anders did anything?

I'm on the record for saying exactly what I said and nothing more.

You said "the Circle is deemed lost" and that "it was considered lost by many BEFORE Anders". I'm asking you if you count yourself among the many. Do you think that the Circle was lost before Anders? Do you think that Meredith was within her rights to call for the ROA?

You imply justification, so I want to understand your views.

Time and time again we were shown that her belief was not not based on nothing. Blood mage activity was rampant. The cirlce was corrupted. You can certanly argue that it wasn't beyond saving - personally I'd agree, but there's no way to tell really - but that's beside the point. 

I want to understand how you believe (i) the circle was corrupted and (ii) that it wasn't beyond saving. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 septembre 2013 - 07:14 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

In Exile wrote...

I want to understand how you believe (i) the circle was corrupted and (ii) that it wasn't beyond saving. 

because every mage in that was blood mage oh screw that i don't care about blood mages that guys were just psychos and demons nothing more.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

iakus wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
But if they're more moderate, like Evangeline, then that would be perfectly fine.

Evangeline. Is. Not. A. Moderate.

It grows tiresome to hear people exalt her when she is, in fact, the very worst Templar. By the end of Asunder, she managed to give every mage the freedom to do whatever they wish to whoever they wish whenever they wish; because she can't bloody well keep every mage in Thedas under control by herself: and also helped to start a war that is going to engulf the entire continent. "Kill all mages" is just as much an extremist position as "Free all mages".
Evangeline is a traitor to every non-magical person in Thedas and every drop of blood spilled in this war is on her hands. Hopefully, she'll be tried and executed.

Evangeline saved every mage in White Spire from being butchered or made tranquil thanks to the paranoia of the Lord Seeker and the political machinations of a senior enchanter.  They were gathered peacefully and with the personal permission of the Divine.

The "kill all mages" war was already going on, thanks to Lambert and Fiona (and Anders and Meredith).  Evangeline simply saved a bunch of innocent victims, keeping it from becoming a total slaughter.  That's her job, as a templar.  Both to protect regular people from mages, and to protect mages from other people.  All too many templars and Seeker have forgotten that part of their duty

I agree. I don't think there is a better definition of why she IS a moderate.

110% this!