I completely agree. I just wanted to understand the situation better. Sometime it's difficult to command / be in charge. Even more in explosif contexts. I wonder if, as inquisitor, we won't suddenly find ourselves in the same position where our decisions (or lack of decisions) are going to be put in question?Plaintiff wrote...
... It is his job to be aware of the actions of his subordinates.
Modifié par MWImexico, 22 septembre 2013 - 07:32 .
cjones91 wrote...
Non mages and mages both bleed the same color,they both have the same feelings and the same bodies as everyone else.Sorry,but your logic is the logic that bigots used back during the Jim Crow Era where they called other whites who supported civil rights traitors to their people.MisterJB wrote...
Such is the world. Exceptions exist but people form groups to which they are drawn to, identify with, have loyalty towards and, ultimately, wish to live amidst. These groups may be formed on biological, cultural or ideological basis but they always exist.Gwydden wrote...
I disagree that they betrayed their own people. You're basically stating that every mage, because of being a mage, automatically feels identifyied with the mages as a group instead of just thinking of himself as an individual with a certain trait, and that the same goes for non mages. You're pushing people into categories they're suposed to have some sort of loyalty to simply because the way they were born.
In Thedas, two such groups are normals and mages. They live apart, follow different cultural norms and are biologically distinct. In endagering every single normal in Thedas for the sake of the mages, Evangeline and others have betrayed their people.
wolfhowwl wrote...
cjones91 wrote...
Non mages and mages both bleed the same color,they both have the same feelings and the same bodies as everyone else.Sorry,but your logic is the logic that bigots used back during the Jim Crow Era where they called other whites who supported civil rights traitors to their people.MisterJB wrote...
Such is the world. Exceptions exist but people form groups to which they are drawn to, identify with, have loyalty towards and, ultimately, wish to live amidst. These groups may be formed on biological, cultural or ideological basis but they always exist.Gwydden wrote...
I disagree that they betrayed their own people. You're basically stating that every mage, because of being a mage, automatically feels identifyied with the mages as a group instead of just thinking of himself as an individual with a certain trait, and that the same goes for non mages. You're pushing people into categories they're suposed to have some sort of loyalty to simply because the way they were born.
In Thedas, two such groups are normals and mages. They live apart, follow different cultural norms and are biologically distinct. In endagering every single normal in Thedas for the sake of the mages, Evangeline and others have betrayed their people.
No it isn't.
When the day comes that our society has dealt with people who can cause massive destruction with their mind and are a walking demonic gateway you can make these comparisons.
Lambert was doing his very best to avoid executing the Enchanters by pinning te blame for Fiona's insurrection on Cole. While the mages had the right to gather, the purpose of the meeting was to discuss what was to be done with the Rite of Tranquility and Fiona hijacked it to fulfill her political ambitions.iakus wrote...
Evangeline saved every mage in White Spire from being butchered or made tranquil thanks to the paranoia of the Lord Seeker and the political machinations of a senior enchanter. They were gathered peacefully and with the personal permission of the Divine.
The "kill all mages" war was already going on, thanks to Lambert and Fiona (and Anders and Meredith). Evangeline simply saved a bunch of innocent victims, keeping it from becoming a total slaughter. That's her job, as a templar. Both to protect regular people from mages, and to protect mages from other people. All too many templars and Seeker have forgotten that part of their duty
Modifié par MisterJB, 23 septembre 2013 - 12:39 .
TheKomandorShepard wrote...
In Exile wrote...
I want to understand how you believe (i) the circle was corrupted and (ii) that it wasn't beyond saving.
because every mage in that was blood mage oh screw that i don't care about blood mages that guys were just psychos and demons nothing more.
cjones91 wrote...
Dwarves don't need to be templars because they are naturally resistent to magic and they don't give one f*ck about the Chantry aside from selling them lyrium.MasterScribe wrote...
I still think a dwarf templar would be awesome.
The Chantry needs some mercenary muscle.
MisterJB wrote...
Lambert was doing his very best to avoid executing the Enchanters by pinning te blame for Fiona's insurrection on Cole. While the mages had the right to gather, the purpose of the meeting was to discuss what was to be done with the Rite of Tranquility and Fiona hijacked it to fulfill her political ambitions.
There was no war going; things were strained but, in such a situation, what you do is try to avoid a war; not decide that things are so bad it's better to burn the bloody world to the ground. And while it is true Templars should protect mages from others, it is also part of their duty to keep mages in the Circle and to prevent them from harming others.
And it seems that Evangeline forgot these duties when she suddenly decided mages had the right to do as they pleased. By aiding in their escape and sedition, she directly betrayed her duties and her fellows.
Somehow, I imagine the families of every civillian killed in this war will agree with me that Evangeline is a traitor.
Maferath would be proud.
You don't have a very good imagination.Somehow, I imagine the families of every civillian killed in this war will agree with me that Evangeline is a traitor.
Fiona didn't set anything up, you're confusing her with Adrian. And trying to avoid a war is futile; it's been a war for thousands dead or mentally destroyed. All this is is finally showing the truth. Fiona is the way forward, and I'll burn the path.Fiona did hijack the meeting, and set up Rhys to take the fall for her actions, but Lambert overstepped himself in attempting to disband it. If Lambert wanted to avoid a war, skewering a bunch of FIrst Enchanters and senior enchanters and imprisoning the rest wan't the way to go about it. That sounds as much like "burn the bloody world to the ground" as much as Fiona's "Viva la Revolucion"
Vilegrim wrote...
cjones91 wrote...
This right here is why I don't like Pro Templar extremists.MisterJB wrote...
Evangeline. Is. Not. A. Moderate.dragonflight288 wrote...
But if they're more moderate, like Evangeline, then that would be perfectly fine.
It grows tiresome to hear people exalt her when she is, in fact, the very worst Templar. By the end of Asunder, she managed to give every mage the freedom to do whatever they wish to whoever they wish whenever they wish; because she can't bloody well keep every mage in Thedas under control by herself: and also helped to start a war that is going to engulf the entire continent. "Kill all mages" is just as much an extremist position as "Free all mages".
Evangeline is a traitor to every non-magical person in Thedas and every drop of blood spilled in this war is on her hands. Hopefully, she'll be tried and executed.
The blood is on the hands of the templars for enslaving mages for being born with the talent, they and the maker cult that supports them deserve nothing less than to all be made tranquil, or be burned at the stake, their choice.
iakus wrote...
Fiona did hijack the meeting, and set up Rhys to take the fall for her actions, but Lambert overstepped himself in attempting to disband it.
Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 septembre 2013 - 12:57 .
iakus wrote...
Fiona did hijack the meeting, and set up Rhys to take the fall for her actions, but Lambert overstepped himself in attempting to disband it. If Lambert wanted to avoid a war, skewering a bunch of FIrst Enchanters and senior enchanters and imprisoning the rest wan't the way to go about it. That sounds as much like "burn the bloody world to the ground" as much as Fiona's "Viva la Revolucion"
Evangeline was instrumental in saving the mages from Lambert's homicidal paranoia. It's onaly a pity she never discovered Fiona's involvement or she could have left her dead in a ditch somewhere.
Then she should have killed Lambert much earlier. That might have at least delayed things.MisterJB wrote...
iakus wrote...
Fiona did hijack the meeting, and set up Rhys to take the fall for her actions, but Lambert overstepped himself in attempting to disband it. If Lambert wanted to avoid a war, skewering a bunch of FIrst Enchanters and senior enchanters and imprisoning the rest wan't the way to go about it. That sounds as much like "burn the bloody world to the ground" as much as Fiona's "Viva la Revolucion"
Evangeline was instrumental in saving the mages from Lambert's homicidal paranoia. It's onaly a pity she never discovered Fiona's involvement or she could have left her dead in a ditch somewhere.
Adrian set up rhys to take the fall. I don't believe it's made clear whether Fiona was aware of her plan or not.
And while I agree that Lambert made a mistake in invading the conclave(but it's still worth mentioning he did not kill a single Enchanter, he intended for Cole to be blamed for controlling their minds as he did with Rhys), I'd still say that "saving 12 or so mages" should be below "averting world war" in Evangeline's list of priorities.
Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 septembre 2013 - 01:00 .
MisterJB wrote...
iakus wrote...
Fiona did hijack the meeting, and set up Rhys to take the fall for her actions, but Lambert overstepped himself in attempting to disband it. If Lambert wanted to avoid a war, skewering a bunch of FIrst Enchanters and senior enchanters and imprisoning the rest wan't the way to go about it. That sounds as much like "burn the bloody world to the ground" as much as Fiona's "Viva la Revolucion"
Evangeline was instrumental in saving the mages from Lambert's homicidal paranoia. It's onaly a pity she never discovered Fiona's involvement or she could have left her dead in a ditch somewhere.
Adrian set up rhys to take the fall. I don't believe it's made clear whether Fiona was aware of her plan or not.
And while I agree that Lambert made a mistake in invading the conclave(but it's still worth mentioning he did not kill a single Enchanter, he intended for Cole to be blamed for controlling their minds as he did with Rhys), I'd still say that "saving 12 or so mages" should be below "averting world war" in Evangeline's list of priorities.
Page 361Silfren wrote...
Lambert didn't kill a single Enchanter? You know this how? Because it isn't spelled out? We know that many mages died during that conclave, and it was directly due to Lambert trying to take it over...! You can hardly absolve him of blame for anyone's deaths.
Modifié par MisterJB, 23 septembre 2013 - 01:08 .
MisterJB wrote...
Page 361Silfren wrote...
Lambert didn't kill a single Enchanter? You know this how? Because it isn't spelled out? We know that many mages died during that conclave, and it was directly due to Lambert trying to take it over...! You can hardly absolve him of blame for anyone's deaths.
"There have been no executions. All those who didn't perish in the great hall have joined you in imprisionment."
At least one mage died during that skirmish but the book makes it clear this was an accident caused by all the fighting. Lambert did not order the deaths of any mages when it was within his power to do so.
Therefore, this merging of Act 3 Meredith with Lambert has no grounds to stand on.
Guest_Craig Golightly_*
Modifié par MasterScribe, 23 septembre 2013 - 01:24 .
If there were no executions, then whatever mages he might have killed he did so in battle which makes it self-defense.Silfren wrote...
Read that sentence again. There is ZERO reason to believe Lambert didn't kill anyone.
Except that he was on the attack...MisterJB wrote...
If there were no executions, then whatever mages he might have killed he did so in battle which makes it self-defense.Silfren wrote...
Read that sentence again. There is ZERO reason to believe Lambert didn't kill anyone.
MisterJB wrote...
If there were no executions, then whatever mages he might have killed he did so in battle which makes it self-defense.Silfren wrote...
Read that sentence again. There is ZERO reason to believe Lambert didn't kill anyone.
Xilizhra wrote...
Fiona didn't set anything up, you're confusing her with Adrian. And trying to avoid a war is futile; it's been a war for thousands dead or mentally destroyed. All this is is finally showing the truth. Fiona is the way forward, and I'll burn the path.
Modifié par iakus, 23 septembre 2013 - 01:19 .
Adrian's too valuable. And ultimately did what was necessary.iakus wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Fiona didn't set anything up, you're confusing her with Adrian. And trying to avoid a war is futile; it's been a war for thousands dead or mentally destroyed. All this is is finally showing the truth. Fiona is the way forward, and I'll burn the path.
You're right, I mixed the two up. Fiona is a firebrand, but in the end all she did was talk.
Edit: So in the end, I think it's a pity Evangeline didn't leave Adrien dead in a ditch, not Fiona.
Xilizhra wrote...
Adrian's too valuable. And ultimately did what was necessary.iakus wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Fiona didn't set anything up, you're confusing her with Adrian. And trying to avoid a war is futile; it's been a war for thousands dead or mentally destroyed. All this is is finally showing the truth. Fiona is the way forward, and I'll burn the path.
You're right, I mixed the two up. Fiona is a firebrand, but in the end all she did was talk.
Edit: So in the end, I think it's a pity Evangeline didn't leave Adrien dead in a ditch, not Fiona.
That's like saying that Zhukov and, say, Goering are two sides of the same coin: it ignores all context and is irrelevant to the current crisis.iakus wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Adrian's too valuable. And ultimately did what was necessary.iakus wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Fiona didn't set anything up, you're confusing her with Adrian. And trying to avoid a war is futile; it's been a war for thousands dead or mentally destroyed. All this is is finally showing the truth. Fiona is the way forward, and I'll burn the path.
You're right, I mixed the two up. Fiona is a firebrand, but in the end all she did was talk.
Edit: So in the end, I think it's a pity Evangeline didn't leave Adrien dead in a ditch, not Fiona.
Adrien and Lambert are two sides fo the same coin
Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 septembre 2013 - 01:25 .
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