935 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

@Xilzhra, than they should state in-game that abominations aren't as strong as people believe. Until they don't do this, I'll still believe that abominations should be powerful, and that the gameplay screen with the lore (not that I care this much about gameplay/lore segretation after DAO and DA2).

Edit: for the record, I think blood mages enemies aren't well-rapresented too. They should be much more powerful.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 septembre 2013 - 05:58 .

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
Strangely, this is proven... not at all. He only uses blood magic to escape from the templars, his immoral action after that had nothing to do with magic at all, and if you let him go, he winds up guarding refugee caravans.

Well, we are told constantly Blood Magic is dangerous, but no one seems to be sure on the specifics. Those it actually make people more susceptible to demonic possession regardless of how they use it?

[wolfhowwl]

Xilizhra wrote...
Strangely, this is proven... not at all. He only uses blood magic to escape from the templars, his immoral action after that had nothing to do with magic at all, and if you let him go, he winds up guarding refugee caravans.

Jowan admits he learned blood magic because he was jealous of the PC's magical prowess.

Xilizhra wrote...

That is NOT rape. I played the mage origin as well.

I did say mind rape, if you will recall.

Considering
that at that point the Circle was overrun with demons and abominations,
it was logical to assume that all mages had died/couldn't be saved by
then. In his eyes, he would just be purging the tower of Fade ilegal
immigrants.

Foolish and rather cowardly, not to mention murderous.

So after demons have slaughtered dozens of capable mages and templars, Greagoir and the handful of remaining templars should have abandoned their fortified position to attempt a rescue of survivors that might not even exist? That would be incredibly stupid and reckless and also certain suicide.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 23 septembre 2013 - 06:06 .

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

Strangely, this is proven... not at all. He only uses blood magic to escape from the templars, his immoral action after that had nothing to do with magic at all, and if you let him go, he winds up guarding refugee caravans.

Which says great things about Jowan as a person, much like his willingness to accept responsibility for what he did does.Jowan only uses it once or twice (that we know of), once to escape and
once to make amends. He never once uses it for ill... intentionally
anyways.
It does nor however make the combination less dangerous. Blood magic is still a very dangerous tool in the hands of human vices. Jowan does not prove that it is not, just that strong moral fiber can prevent it from being completely abused.

Sadly... trusting that people to have a solid moral character, even brought up in good homes with excellent education, is one hell of a leap of faith.

[dragonflight288]

Gwydden wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

But that's the thing. He wasn't a templar. It wasn't his job to protect people from mages. He was a Seeker, the Lord-High Seeker to be precise. His job was to investigate the templars and keep them from abusing the mages, or to remove ineffectual templars and get them replaced.

He was not doing his designated job, since his paranoia had him acting as a Knight-Vigilant templar.

It's especially damning when he orders Evangeline to kill anyone who may have proof that tranquility is curable.

Well, that's a different matter, and I can see how he got derailed from his work. Maybe they forgot to send a memo his way? Still, after seing such a horrible array of templars in both DA games so far, particularly in the second one, I expect Inquisition will at least bring a few less ineffectual, so to say.

I certainly hope so. I don't expect the Red templars are going to be sympathized with, but we will get Cassandra as a companion, so I'm hoping we'll get a more thorough, more well-rounded view from her. I still expect it will be biased in favor of the Chantry, especially since she was so convinced that Hawke went to Kirkwall to spread subversion against the Chantry, and deliberately acted as (s)he did, and only later came to blame Meredith...or the idol....or Anders.....after Varric finished his tale.

If we get plenty of the moderate, well-meaning templars who are still loyal to the Chantry, and they maintain a reasonable position, and have all the radicals join the Red Templars, that I can live with as it'll separate who the real enemies are, at least on that front. If we ignore the likely qunari invasion, the big hole in the sky and the darkspawn crawing beneath the ground.

[Lotion Soronarr]

wolfhowwl wrote...

So after demons have slaughtered dozens of capable mages and templars, Greagoir and the handful of remaining templars should have abandoned their fortified position to attempt a rescue of survivors that might not even exist? That would be incredibly stupid and reckless and also certain suicide.

Xill lacks any tactical or common sense. I thought you knew this by now.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...

...Seriously? My point was Lambert's callousness on the matter, and this is what you have to say? 

If you've ever been with soldiers who have been on multiple tours of duty, you'd known that they generally have such reactions to death. Things that would horrify you are something that they have become numb to. It's a defense mechanism.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

...Seriously? My point was Lambert's callousness on the matter, and this is what you have to say? 

If you've ever been with soldiers who have been on multiple tours of duty, you'd known that they generally have such reactions to death. Things that would horrify you are something that they have become numb to. It's a defense mechanism.

That's not the least bit acceptable, mages are not the soldiers of an enemy nation, they are innocent people.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

...Seriously? My point was Lambert's callousness on the matter, and this is what you have to say? 

If you've ever been with soldiers who have been on multiple tours of duty, you'd known that they generally have such reactions to death. Things that would horrify you are something that they have become numb to. It's a defense mechanism.

That's not the least bit acceptable, mages are not the soldiers of an enemy nation, they are innocent people.

Wether you accept it or not is irrelevant. It's how it is.
You can't change it.
And it reffers to death in general - not just enemy soldiers.
After youv'e see too much s***, you'll either find some way to cope with it or go insane. There is no third way.

But for templars, mages are both a friend and enemy. Their relationships is very..complicated.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

...Seriously? My point was Lambert's callousness on the matter, and this is what you have to say? 

If you've ever been with soldiers who have been on multiple tours of duty, you'd known that they generally have such reactions to death. Things that would horrify you are something that they have become numb to. It's a defense mechanism.

That's not the least bit acceptable, mages are not the soldiers of an enemy nation, they are innocent people.

Wether you accept it or not is irrelevant. It's how it is.
You can't change it.
And it reffers to death in general - not just enemy soldiers.
After youv'e see too much s***, you'll either find some way to cope with it or go insane. There is no third way.

But for templars, mages are both a friend and enemy. Their relationships is very..complicated.

It's not complicated in the least. People who imprison you are not your friends.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Mages aren't organized soldiers, but they're like very dark hippie soldiers gathered somewhere to do their works in their own way, and defend/attack if necessary.

[Sir JK]

Plaintiff wrote...

It's not complicated in the least. People who imprison you are not your friends.

Does that not depend on why they limit your freedom? If I know someone will cause harm to themselves, am I wrong in keeping them where I can prevent it?

Not that it applies to the mages of Thedas since they clearly can make decision for themselves (most of them anyways).

Regardless, I'm fairly certain Lotion meant the templars. Despite what the circle stands for, the templars are not supposed to do it out of malice. It is supposed to be for protection; for mages and against mages. In that sense, while being their jailors, the templars are supposed to be their friends.

Naturally... due to the presence of resolutionists, apostates and abominations many templars start associating mages with the enemy. Which is part of where the problems come from. It's hard to think of a group where members hurt you, kill your friends and collegues and continuosly anatgonize you as friends.

Hence the complexity, the mages are supposed to be the templar's friends... but many end up being their enemies. A few bad apples spoils the bunch taken to catastrophic levels.

[fchopin]

The only good templar is a dead templar.

[Dubozz]

Is this another 'Cullen thread' in disguise?

[Plaintiff]

Sir JK wrote...
Does that not depend on why they limit your freedom? If I know someone will cause harm to themselves, am I wrong in keeping them where I can prevent it?

No, it depends on whether or not that person likes you. You may be fully justified in keeping someone under watch, but that doesn't make you their friend.

Friendship, like any other kind of real relationship, requires the consent of both parties.

Not that it applies to the mages of Thedas since they clearly can make decision for themselves (most of them anyways).

Regardless, I'm fairly certain Lotion meant the templars. Despite what the circle stands for, the templars are not supposed to do it out of malice. It is supposed to be for protection; for mages and against mages. In that sense, while being their jailors, the templars are supposed to be their friends.

How the Templars feel about the relationship doesn't signify. The Mages are an equal part in the decision to be 'friends', and it's clear now, if it wasn't before, that they dont want to be.

Forced friendship isn't friendship, it's just ****ing creepy.

Naturally... due to the presence of resolutionists, apostates and abominations many templars start associating mages with the enemy. Which is part of where the problems come from. It's hard to think of a group where members hurt you, kill your friends and collegues and continuosly anatgonize you as friends.

Couldnt possibly have anyhting to do with the fact that Templars are told as children that mages are to blame for the evils of their world. 

Hence the complexity, the mages are supposed to be the templar's friends... but many end up being their enemies. A few bad apples spoils the bunch taken to catastrophic levels.

More accurately, the Templars force their 'friendship' where it is not wanted. Which means they are creeps.

[Lotion Soronarr]

No one is forcing anything.

Mages are forced to live in the Tower (for the post part) but aside from that, who they make freinds with is their own buisness. Nothing is forced.
Take a look at Greagoir and Irwing. There are examples everywhere (and in RL jails too). Frindshipss can form everywhere.

Mages don't want to be friends? Many mages disagree.

Couldnt possibly have anyhting to do with the fact that Templars are told as children that mages are to blame for the evils of their world.

OR it could have something to do with the fact that they SEE with their own eyes what mages do. Much more powerfull than words.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No one is forcing anything.

Mages are forced to live in the Tower (for the post part) but aside from that, who they make freinds with is their own buisness. Nothing is forced.
Take a look at Greagoir and Irwing. There are examples everywhere (and in RL jails too). Frindshipss can form everywhere.

Mages don't want to be friends? Many mages disagree.

Couldnt possibly have anyhting to do with the fact that Templars are told as children that mages are to blame for the evils of their world.

OR it could have something to do with the fact that they SEE with their own eyes what mages do. Much more powerfull than words.

Lol.

"Their entire lifestyle is forced on them, BUT APART FROM THAT THEY HAVE COMPLETE AUTONOMY".

But you totally missed the point. You said the Templars are friends to the mages. They aren't.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 septembre 2013 - 11:09 .

[Sir JK]

Plaintiff wrote...

No, it depends on whether or not that person likes you. You may be fully justified in keeping someone under watch, but that doesn't make you their friend.

Friendship, like any other kind of real relationship, requires the consent of both parties.

Fair enough.

How the Templars feel about the relationship doesn't signify. The Mages are an equal part in the decision to be 'friends', and it's clear now, if it wasn't before, that they dont want to be.

Forced friendship isn't friendship, it's just ****ing creepy.

True. Arguably though, had the circles worked like they should more mages would probably make the decision to be friends. But that point is fairly hollow since the circles do not work like that in practise.

Couldnt possibly have anyhting to do with the fact that Templars are told as children that mages are to blame for the evils of their world.

Oh, it plays a part certainly (I just forgot to mention it). But had it not been true at all then the Templars would be the first ones to notice and the first ones start disregarding the lie. Having something continously proven wrong makes it difficult to take seriously, at least in my experience.
For comparison: You can disbelieve gravity all you like, things are still going to fall to the ground.

That's not saying that what they're being taught isn't greatly exaggerated. As long as they can discern a small kernel of truth in the whole thing, they'll believe it. Since abominations happen on occassion, blood magic occassionaly hurt them and occasionally they meet a dangerous apostate what they were taught rings true. Seeing the bigger picture is a very difficult thing at times.

The templars are not brainwashed by those teachings, just inclined to see things from that perspective. The occasional piece of "evidence" is what makes it difficult to convince them otherwise.

More accurately, the Templars force their 'friendship' where it is not wanted. Which means they are creeps.

Plaintiff... I thought you of all people would be the first to point out that this "friendship" only existed on paper. In practise mages are treated more (emphasis on treated) like enemies than friends, or if the mages are really lucky: like inmates or patients.

Rare is the templar that actually does treat his wards with respect and dignity.

[Dave of Canada]

Dubozz wrote...

Is this another 'Cullen thread' in disguise?

All threads are Cullen threads.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
"Their entire lifestyle is forced on them, BUT APART FROM THAT THEY HAVE COMPLETE AUTONOMY".

But you totally missed the point. You said the Templars are friends to the mages. They aren't.

That's not for you to decide.
The ones to decide that are individual mages and templars.

The templars are not brainwashed by those teachings, just inclined to
see things from that perspective. The occasional piece of "evidence" is
what makes it difficult to convince them otherwise.

The occasional piece of evidence is what proves that waht they do is justified. The templars do see the bigger picture. All the time.

[Xilizhra]

Jowan admits he learned blood magic because he was jealous of the PC's magical prowess.

I said "use." He still doesn't hurt anyone with it (or at least does no lasting damage, only briefly knocking out a couple of people).

So after demons have slaughtered dozens of capable mages and templars, Greagoir and the handful of remaining templars should have abandoned their fortified position to attempt a rescue of survivors that might not even exist? That would be incredibly stupid and reckless and also certain suicide.

Not necessarily, but there should never have been an Annulment; the reinforcements should have been there to rescue primarily.

Which says great things about Jowan as a person, much like his willingness to accept responsibility for what he did does.Jowan only uses it once or twice (that we know of), once to escape and
once to make amends. He never once uses it for ill... intentionally
anyways.
It does nor however make the combination less dangerous. Blood magic is still a very dangerous tool in the hands of human vices. Jowan does not prove that it is not, just that strong moral fiber can prevent it from being completely abused.

Sadly... trusting that people to have a solid moral character, even brought up in good homes with excellent education, is one hell of a leap of faith.

I do believe that blood magic should be doled out judiciously, but not to the extent that you kill everyone who has it.

Oh, it plays a part certainly (I just forgot to mention it). But had it not been true at all then the Templars would be the first ones to notice and the first ones start disregarding the lie. Having something continously proven wrong makes it difficult to take seriously, at least in my experience.
For comparison: You can disbelieve gravity all you like, things are still going to fall to the ground.

Sadly, that doesn't quite work, because it's a historical event that only happened once; you can't disprove something like that by current behavior, at least not to the sufficiently zealous.

[Sir JK]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The templars are not brainwashed by those teachings, just inclined to
see things from that perspective. The occasional piece of "evidence" is
what makes it difficult to convince them otherwise.

The occasional piece of evidence is what proves that waht they do is justified. The templars do see the bigger picture. All the time.

Much obliged for providing an excellent example of what I meant.

[ianvillan]

wolfhowwl wrote...


So after demons have slaughtered dozens of capable mages and templars, Greagoir and the handful of remaining templars should have abandoned their fortified position to attempt a rescue of survivors that might not even exist? That would be incredibly stupid and reckless and also certain suicide.

Greagoir only had a safe and fortified position thanks to a mages shield that prevented abominations from getting through to them and the outside world, yet he wants to still kill all of the remaining mages that are keeping him and his Templars safe and preventing the abominations running loose.

If the Templars truly valued their vows about protecting mages then Greagoir should of tried to save others that might of been trapped inside even if it meant his life and fighting Abominations is meant to be a main tenant of the Templars.

The Warden with 3 followers saved the remaining mages ended the main threat from the Abominations and Greagoir still wants to annul the Tower and kill the surviving mages including the children because of paranoia and fear that the rest will also turn into Abominations and it takes the Warden to prevent him from doing so not his vows or any friendship or compassion for the mages.

Modifié par ianvillan, 23 septembre 2013 - 02:17 .

[Gwydden]

ianvillan wrote...

Greagoir only had a safe and fortified position thanks to a mages shield that prevented abominations from getting through to them and the outside world, yet he wants to still kill all of the remaining mages that are keeping him and his Templars safe and preventing the abominations running loose.

If the Templars truly valued their vows about protecting mages then Greagoir should of tried to save others that might of been trapped inside even if it meant his life and fighting Abominations is meant to be a main tenant of the Templars.

Gregoir didn't think anyone had survived the abomination rush. He wasn't going to risk the life of the dozen templars that were left to save some hypothetical survivors. He doesn't want the Right of Annulment to "kill the remaining mages", simply to purge the circle of abominations (which is effectively ending it if no mages are left).

ianvillan wrote...
The Warden with 3 followers saved the remaining mages ended the main threat from the Abominations and Greagoir still wants to annul the Tower and kill the surviving mages including the children because of paranoia and fear that the rest will also turn into Abominations and it takes the Warden to prevent him from doing so not his vows or any friendship or compassion for the mages.

You do realise the Warden and his party are not exactly normal people, do you? And if you ask Gregoir what he wants to do after killing Uldred, without suggesting him anything, he says that he will take Irving's word and sees no reason to annul the Circle.

Modifié par Gwydden, 23 septembre 2013 - 02:32 .

[ianvillan]

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Greagoir only had a safe and fortified position thanks to a mages shield that prevented abominations from getting through to them and the outside world, yet he wants to still kill all of the remaining mages that are keeping him and his Templars safe and preventing the abominations running loose.

If the Templars truly valued their vows about protecting mages then Greagoir should of tried to save others that might of been trapped inside even if it meant his life and fighting Abominations is meant to be a main tenant of the Templars.

Gregoir didn't think anyone had survived the abomination rush. He wasn't going to risk the life of the dozen templars that were left to save some hypothetical survivors. He doesn't want the Right of Annulment to "kill the remaining mages", simply to purge the circle of abominations (which is effectively ending it if no mages are left).

ianvillan wrote...
The Warden with 3 followers saved the remaining mages ended the main threat from the Abominations and Greagoir still wants to annul the Tower and kill the surviving mages including the children because of paranoia and fear that the rest will also turn into Abominations and it takes the Warden to prevent him from doing so not his vows or any friendship or compassion for the mages.

You do realise the Warden and his party are not exactly normal people, do you? And if you ask Gregoir what he wants to do after killing Uldred, without suggesting him anything, he says that he will take Irving's word and sees no reason to annul the Circle.

The Templars say that one of their main purposes is to protect mages and another is to fight Abominations yet when he has the chance to do both he does not try to see if there are any remaining mages left alive which he swore to protect or try to fight the Abominations that could get out of the tower and kill untold number of people.

I was under the impression that Greagoir wanted to annul the tower and kill all the mages because he believed they all followed Uldred and would turn into Abominations. I will take your point that he might would let Wynne and the children live but he did believe it was a mage conspiracy of following Uldred what do you think would of been the surviving mages fate when the chantry came to a conclusion about what should be done with them if the warden had not come by to stop Uldred and save the tower.

Modifié par ianvillan, 23 septembre 2013 - 03:26 .