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[Reaverwind]

ianvillan wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Greagoir only had a safe and fortified position thanks to a mages shield that prevented abominations from getting through to them and the outside world, yet he wants to still kill all of the remaining mages that are keeping him and his Templars safe and preventing the abominations running loose.

If the Templars truly valued their vows about protecting mages then Greagoir should of tried to save others that might of been trapped inside even if it meant his life and fighting Abominations is meant to be a main tenant of the Templars.

Gregoir didn't think anyone had survived the abomination rush. He wasn't going to risk the life of the dozen templars that were left to save some hypothetical survivors. He doesn't want the Right of Annulment to "kill the remaining mages", simply to purge the circle of abominations (which is effectively ending it if no mages are left).

ianvillan wrote...
The Warden with 3 followers saved the remaining mages ended the main threat from the Abominations and Greagoir still wants to annul the Tower and kill the surviving mages including the children because of paranoia and fear that the rest will also turn into Abominations and it takes the Warden to prevent him from doing so not his vows or any friendship or compassion for the mages.

You do realise the Warden and his party are not exactly normal people, do you? And if you ask Gregoir what he wants to do after killing Uldred, without suggesting him anything, he says that he will take Irving's word and sees no reason to annul the Circle.

The Templars say that one of their main purposes is to protect mages and another is to fight Abominations yet when he has the chance to do both he does not try to see if there are any remaining mages left alive which he swore to protect or try to fight the Abominations that could get out of the tower and kill untold number of people.

I was under the impression that Greagoir wanted to annul the tower and kill all the mages because he believed they all followed Uldred and would turn into Abominations. I will take your point that he might would let Wynne and the children live but he did believe it was a mage conspiracy of following Uldred what do you think would of been the surviving mages fate when the chantry came to a conclusion about what should be done with them if the warden had not come by to stop Uldred and save the tower.

There would have been no survivors. The Civil War had disrupted communications - Greagoir would not have gotten his reinforcements in time, and likely would not have survived, himself.

[ianvillan]

Reaverwind wrote...


There would have been no survivors. The Civil War had disrupted communications - Greagoir would not have gotten his reinforcements in time, and likely would not have survived, himself.

But how was waiting there until the abominations escape any better, Logain was preventing any Orleasian forces from entering the country and the rest of Feraldens Templars are scattered and without communication so just waiting in the tower and hoping that the abominations will just sit still and do nothing is the best way to deal with the threat.

The abomination threat had only just begun and once Uldred had dealt with Ervin all of the abominations would of gotten out into the country and caused massive casualties especially if they joined with the darkspawn. surely it would of been better to kill as many as they could before the abominations escaped so there is less of them to kill the civilians.

[Dean_the_Young]

ianvillan wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Greagoir only had a safe and fortified position thanks to a mages shield that prevented abominations from getting through to them and the outside world, yet he wants to still kill all of the remaining mages that are keeping him and his Templars safe and preventing the abominations running loose.

If the Templars truly valued their vows about protecting mages then Greagoir should of tried to save others that might of been trapped inside even if it meant his life and fighting Abominations is meant to be a main tenant of the Templars.

Gregoir didn't think anyone had survived the abomination rush. He wasn't going to risk the life of the dozen templars that were left to save some hypothetical survivors. He doesn't want the Right of Annulment to "kill the remaining mages", simply to purge the circle of abominations (which is effectively ending it if no mages are left).

ianvillan wrote...
The Warden with 3 followers saved the remaining mages ended the main threat from the Abominations and Greagoir still wants to annul the Tower and kill the surviving mages including the children because of paranoia and fear that the rest will also turn into Abominations and it takes the Warden to prevent him from doing so not his vows or any friendship or compassion for the mages.

You do realise the Warden and his party are not exactly normal people, do you? And if you ask Gregoir what he wants to do after killing Uldred, without suggesting him anything, he says that he will take Irving's word and sees no reason to annul the Circle.

The Templars say that one of their main purposes is to protect mages and another is to fight Abominations yet when he has the chance to do both he does not try to see if there are any remaining mages left alive which he swore to protect or try to fight the Abominations that could get out of the tower and kill untold number of people.

What chance? Opportunity depends on awareness of the possibility, after all.

You're also neglecting the nature of prioritizing objectives.

I was under the impression that Greagoir wanted to annul the tower and kill all the mages because he believed they all followed Uldred and would turn into Abominations. I will take your point that he might would let Wynne and the children live but he did believe it was a mage conspiracy of following Uldred what do you think would of been the surviving mages fate when the chantry came to a conclusion about what should be done with them if the warden had not come by to stop Uldred and save the tower.

Except... there was a mage conspiracy following Uldred. And by the time the Chantry got to send a response, Uldred and his conspiracy would have turned them all into Abominations.

That it hadn't finished yet doesn't change that it was a concern founded in reality.

[Reaverwind]

ianvillan wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...


There would have been no survivors. The Civil War had disrupted communications - Greagoir would not have gotten his reinforcements in time, and likely would not have survived, himself.

But how was waiting there until the abominations escape any better, Logain was preventing any Orleasian forces from entering the country and the rest of Feraldens Templars are scattered and without communication so just waiting in the tower and hoping that the abominations will just sit still and do nothing is the best way to deal with the threat.

They weren't expecting the Abominations to do nothing - they'd fallen back to what they thought was a more defensible position. 

[Nashiktal]

Reaverwind wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...


There would have been no survivors. The Civil War had disrupted communications - Greagoir would not have gotten his reinforcements in time, and likely would not have survived, himself.

But how was waiting there until the abominations escape any better, Logain was preventing any Orleasian forces from entering the country and the rest of Feraldens Templars are scattered and without communication so just waiting in the tower and hoping that the abominations will just sit still and do nothing is the best way to deal with the threat.

They weren't expecting the Abominations to do nothing - they'd fallen back to what they thought was a more defensible position. 

What Reaverwind said. They went to the only point that logic dictated the abominations would go. To escape the enemy would have to funnel down the tower and go through the chokepoint against the concentrated strength of the templars. It was a good move despite the horror of having to abandon the mages in the tower.

Not a great position but it prevents the abominations from escaping into the wild and causing more death and destruction. 

[ianvillan]

Reaverwind wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...


There would have been no survivors. The Civil War had disrupted communications - Greagoir would not have gotten his reinforcements in time, and likely would not have survived, himself.

But how was waiting there until the abominations escape any better, Logain was preventing any Orleasian forces from entering the country and the rest of Feraldens Templars are scattered and without communication so just waiting in the tower and hoping that the abominations will just sit still and do nothing is the best way to deal with the threat.

They weren't expecting the Abominations to do nothing - they'd fallen back to what they thought was a more defensible position. 

Your right in what you say and Greagoir was in a difficult position, But sitting still in the defensible position went against his vows of protecting mages and ran the risk of the abominations escaping from another place to cause havoc outside.

Templars say that they should be in charge of the circles because they are they only ones able to deal with abominations yet what we have seen from Templars is them struggling to fight abominations yet non Templars have to do the job for them.

The Templars also say they are there to protect the mages but we have only seen two Templars in both games willing to actually take that part of their vow seriously. Do the Templars follow that part of their vows or is it just PR for complaining mages.

[ianvillan]

Nashiktal wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...


There would have been no survivors. The Civil War had disrupted communications - Greagoir would not have gotten his reinforcements in time, and likely would not have survived, himself.

But how was waiting there until the abominations escape any better, Logain was preventing any Orleasian forces from entering the country and the rest of Feraldens Templars are scattered and without communication so just waiting in the tower and hoping that the abominations will just sit still and do nothing is the best way to deal with the threat.

They weren't expecting the Abominations to do nothing - they'd fallen back to what they thought was a more defensible position. 

What Reaverwind said. They went to the only point that logic dictated the abominations would go. To escape the enemy would have to funnel down the tower and go through the chokepoint against the concentrated strength of the templars. It was a good move despite the horror of having to abandon the mages in the tower.

Not a great position but it prevents the abominations from escaping into the wild and causing more death and destruction. 

So abominations that Templars say can destroy villages cant break a window or smash a wall down they can only follow corridors. Greagoir may have made a tactical decision that he thought was best but I believe that taking the fight to the enemy and killing as many as they could which they are meant to be suited for would of been the right move if they truly did value the vows they took and cared about the mages under their care.

[Dean_the_Young]

ianvillan wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...


There would have been no survivors. The Civil War had disrupted communications - Greagoir would not have gotten his reinforcements in time, and likely would not have survived, himself.

But how was waiting there until the abominations escape any better, Logain was preventing any Orleasian forces from entering the country and the rest of Feraldens Templars are scattered and without communication so just waiting in the tower and hoping that the abominations will just sit still and do nothing is the best way to deal with the threat.

They weren't expecting the Abominations to do nothing - they'd fallen back to what they thought was a more defensible position. 

What Reaverwind said. They went to the only point that logic dictated the abominations would go. To escape the enemy would have to funnel down the tower and go through the chokepoint against the concentrated strength of the templars. It was a good move despite the horror of having to abandon the mages in the tower.

Not a great position but it prevents the abominations from escaping into the wild and causing more death and destruction. 

So abominations that Templars say can destroy villages cant break a window or smash a wall down they can only follow corridors. Greagoir may have made a tactical decision that he thought was best but I believe that taking the fight to the enemy and killing as many as they could which they are meant to be suited for would of been the right move if they truly did value the vows they took and cared about the mages under their care.

Why the false dichtomy? Why can't Greagoir both value the vows he took and care about the mages under his care AND think that your belief is poor strategy?

I mean, he's the veteran expert with in-world experience and some familiarity with the construction and makeup of the tower, and the resources he has at hand: he could have knowledge or reason to believe that the walls of the Tower could hold for some time against abominations, or at least long enough that his defensive position would be sufficient.

You, on the other hand, are just some person with a smattering of context, few facts, a touch of belief, and no investment in what happens if you gamble on a rescue and abandon your defenses. The authority of the facts on the ground you are not.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 septembre 2013 - 04:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ianvillan wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...


There would have been no survivors. The Civil War had disrupted communications - Greagoir would not have gotten his reinforcements in time, and likely would not have survived, himself.

But how was waiting there until the abominations escape any better, Logain was preventing any Orleasian forces from entering the country and the rest of Feraldens Templars are scattered and without communication so just waiting in the tower and hoping that the abominations will just sit still and do nothing is the best way to deal with the threat.

They weren't expecting the Abominations to do nothing - they'd fallen back to what they thought was a more defensible position. 

Your right in what you say and Greagoir was in a difficult position, But sitting still in the defensible position went against his vows of protecting mages and ran the risk of the abominations escaping from another place to cause havoc outside.

*Citation needed.

Vows can have priority over eachother- minimizing an abomination outbreak can take precedence over trying to save mages. If trying to save mages increases the risk of failing to contain the abominations, the any system that places the later over the former would be intact.

Templars say that they should be in charge of the circles because they are they only ones able to deal with abominations yet what we have seen from Templars is them struggling to fight abominations yet non Templars have to do the job for them.

If by 'non-Templars' you mean 'player characters who are on a whole other level,' that's like comparing regular soldiers to special forces. The measures are so different they're meaningless.

Templars are the ones better able to deal with magic forces... compared to other normal groups and factions. It doesn't mean they're great against them, or even better one one one, it just means they suck less as a whole.

The Templars also say they are there to protect the mages but we have only seen two Templars in both games willing to actually take that part of their vow seriously. Do the Templars follow that part of their vows or is it just PR for complaining mages.

If you only counted two, then you were either not paying attention or didn't understand how various actions and policies could protect the mages.

[Reaverwind]

ianvillan wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...


There would have been no survivors. The Civil War had disrupted communications - Greagoir would not have gotten his reinforcements in time, and likely would not have survived, himself.

But how was waiting there until the abominations escape any better, Logain was preventing any Orleasian forces from entering the country and the rest of Feraldens Templars are scattered and without communication so just waiting in the tower and hoping that the abominations will just sit still and do nothing is the best way to deal with the threat.

They weren't expecting the Abominations to do nothing - they'd fallen back to what they thought was a more defensible position. 

Your right in what you say and Greagoir was in a difficult position, But sitting still in the defensible position went against his vows of protecting mages and ran the risk of the abominations escaping from another place to cause havoc outside.

Geagoir was cutting his losses. Remember, there were templars trapped in the tower, too. You really think he wanted to abandon them?

[DarthLaxian]

Sir JK wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's not complicated in the least. People who imprison you are not your friends.

Does that not depend on why they limit your freedom? If I know someone will cause harm to themselves, am I wrong in keeping them where I can prevent it?

Not that it applies to the mages of Thedas since they clearly can make decision for themselves (most of them anyways).

Regardless, I'm fairly certain Lotion meant the templars. Despite what the circle stands for, the templars are not supposed to do it out of malice. It is supposed to be for protection; for mages and against mages. In that sense, while being their jailors, the templars are supposed to be their friends.

Naturally... due to the presence of resolutionists, apostates and abominations many templars start associating mages with the enemy. Which is part of where the problems come from. It's hard to think of a group where members hurt you, kill your friends and collegues and continuosly anatgonize you as friends.

Hence the complexity, the mages are supposed to be the templar's friends... but many end up being their enemies. A few bad apples spoils the bunch taken to catastrophic levels.

complexity?

no, it's only natural, if you give one group complete power over another (without appeal, due process (or at least: with them being able to toss that out without the other group really having a chance to protest to a higher authority - and if they do, that authority does not help (like the grand-cleric of Kirkwall against Meredith)) and rights that can't be ignored), propaganda that paints one side as evil and the other as pure good and always right etc.)

it's a form of MILGRAM EXPERIMENT - and a very "successfull" one (if you are on the side of the chantry), without the electro shocks (in this case: tranquility, harrowings, beatings, other abuse, vilification and even rape and murder) being fake

congratulations, you just artificially produced psychopaths and victims (and if the victims defend themselves with the only way they can (blood-magic - as all other magic is negated by templars!!!), you even have the right to put them to death no questions asked (!))...very nice....sorry, but this is un-acceptable (protecting the common-people my behind - it's just a lie, as most mages would just want to live a quiet more or less normal live and the few special cases could be dealt with, if one gave each town a few templars (and well trained mages) to hunt down those becoming a danger!)

greetings LAX

[ianvillan]

Reaverwind wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Your right in what you say and Greagoir was in a difficult position, But sitting still in the defensible position went against his vows of protecting mages and ran the risk of the abominations escaping from another place to cause havoc outside.

Geagoir was cutting his losses. Remember, there were templars trapped in the tower, too. You really think he wanted to abandon them?

Yes he was cutting his losses but sitting still when the abominations could escape another way was foolish and against his vows to protect people from the abominations, people have said that the help he sent for would not arrive and that the abominations would of broke through before they could get help anyway. surely the best thing to do was to take the fight to the enemy before they could escape and kill as many as they could so they would do less damage when they did escape.

Also if he was truly preparing a defence why was it Wynne and the mages who were up front on there own and Greagoir had positioned his Templars by the main door out.

[Silfren]

ianvillan wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Your right in what you say and Greagoir was in a difficult position, But sitting still in the defensible position went against his vows of protecting mages and ran the risk of the abominations escaping from another place to cause havoc outside.

Geagoir was cutting his losses. Remember, there were templars trapped in the tower, too. You really think he wanted to abandon them?

Yes he was cutting his losses but sitting still when the abominations could escape another way was foolish and against his vows to protect people from the abominations, people have said that the help he sent for would not arrive and that the abominations would of broke through before they could get help anyway. surely the best thing to do was to take the fight to the enemy before they could escape and kill as many as they could so they would do less damage when they did escape.

Also if he was truly preparing a defence why was it Wynne and the mages who were up front on there own and Greagoir had positioned his Templars by the main door out.

Who says the abominations could have excaped another way?  The purpose of telling us about the special door is to drive home the point that abominations CAN'T get past it.  It's a way of sealing off abominations in the event of exactly the kind of disaster that occurred.  

I think Greagoir has his faults, certainly, but I don't understand slamming him for what he did here.  His actions were completely understandable and justifiable in this situation. 

You are forgetting that he explicitly states waiting for reinforcements.  He wasn't ignoring his duty.  He just had sense enough to know the pointlessness of rushing in without adequate numbers to mount a viable defense.  You don't think that he SHOULD have gone in there without an adequate number of soldiers, when the only thing that would accomplish is getting all of them killed?  He wouldn't have been helping anyone, mage or templar, if he had tried to save the mages without sufficient numbers to do them any good.

Modifié par Silfren, 23 septembre 2013 - 07:37 .

[ianvillan]

Silfren wrote...

Who says the abominations could have excaped another way?  The purpose of telling us about the special door is to drive home the point that abominations CAN'T get past it.  It's a way of sealing off abominations in the event of exactly the kind of disaster that occurred.  

I think Greagoir has his faults, certainly, but I don't understand slamming him for what he did here.  His actions were completely understandable and justifiable in this situation. 

You are forgetting that he explicitly states waiting for reinforcements.  He wasn't ignoring his duty.  He just had sense enough to know the pointlessness of rushing in without adequate numbers to mount a viable defense.  You don't think that he SHOULD have gone in there without an adequate number of soldiers, when the only thing that would accomplish is getting all of them killed?  He wouldn't have been helping anyone, mage or templar, if he had tried to save the mages without sufficient numbers to do them any good.

These abominations who are meant to be so dangerous that one could destroy a village, cant knock down a wall or smash a window but have to follow corridors.

Uldred was not some mindless beast he would have known that if he stayed in the tower for quite a few days reinforcements would arrive and he may be defeated but because there is a magic barrier in place he want bother trying to escape another way he would just stay where he is.

The barrier was created by Wynne and we don't know too much about it but what if Wynne gets too tired too keep it up or the abominations manage to smash it down quickly, the mages who were on the front line including children would be killed first while Greagoir with his Templars are a room or two back waiting by the main exit, that shows how much he values the lives of the mages he is meant to protect. 

[Vicious]

The inquisition is about protecting people from Demons. There's no reason NOT to have a Templar in the ranks. The Inquisition is, after all, the original proto-templar organization.

[Xilizhra]

Vicious wrote...

The inquisition is about protecting people from Demons. There's no reason NOT to have a Templar in the ranks. The Inquisition is, after all, the original proto-templar organization.

Well, they're an enemy army in need of obliteration.

[LobselVith8]

Vicious wrote...

The inquisition is about protecting people from Demons. There's no reason NOT to have a Templar in the ranks. The Inquisition is, after all, the original proto-templar organization.

A Dalish Inquisitor, or a mage Inquisitor,  could have a plethora of reasons for not wanting templars to be in their respective army. And the original Inquisition was an Andrastian group; the new organization isn't beholden to the faith of the Andrastian Chantry, especially if the new group is lead by a heathen.  

[Hellion Rex]

MasterScribe wrote...

I just want to point out AGAIN that Cassandra is both a Seeker AND a templar. 

....We know...they mean a NON-SEEKER  templar.

[azarhal]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Do we have any record anywhere of her being called a templar except in that video?  Because I can also find interviews of devs saying that ME2 was 80 gameplay hours pre launch.  "Templar" is a lot easier to explain in the context of that trailer than "Seeker."  In the actual game and the lore she's consistently referred to as Seeker. 

Some cut dialogs from DA2 has one refered to as Templar Seeker by Senescal Bran (1:57 in this video).