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I'd like to see a templar as a party member


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#851
Dean_the_Young

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ianvillan wrote...

These abominations who are meant to be so dangerous that one could destroy a village, cant knock down a wall or smash a window but have to follow corridors.

Why not? Big, sturdy walls, very possibly magically reinforced, can take some time to break down. The windows demonstratably aren't a feasible way of entry/exit because no one. abomination or otherwise, is shown to uses them as such despite Gregoir's position. And if the Abominations do try to make a hole in the walls, the Templars controlling the outside of the Tower could watch and reorient as necessary.

Besides, your premise is flawed- dangerous things don't necessarily have great physical power. Recent events alone should remind you that there are plenty of things that can kill thousands of people without destroying a building.

Uldred was not some mindless beast he would have known that if he stayed in the tower for quite a few days reinforcements would arrive and he may be defeated but because there is a magic barrier in place he want bother trying to escape another way he would just stay where he is.

Uldred (a) was insane, (B) possessed by a fade being that has little understanding of the material world, and © your argument turns on itself at the end. Work on your sentence structure: either Uldred knows he can't stay and would make an effort to escape, or... he knows he can't stay, and doesn't make an effort to escape.

The barrier was created by Wynne and we don't know too much about it but what if Wynne gets too tired too keep it up or the abominations manage to smash it down quickly, the mages who were on the front line including children would be killed first while Greagoir with his Templars are a room or two back waiting by the main exit, that shows how much he values the lives of the mages he is meant to protect. 

Except it doesn't, because Greagoir doesn't know they are there and uncorrupted. You are criticizing him on meta-knowledge, not knowledge he has access to.

Blaming someone for not acting on information they don't have is very, very stupid. And unfair, but primarily stupid.

#852
Lotion Soronarr

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Xilizhra wrote...

Not necessarily, but there should never have been an Annulment; the reinforcements should have been there to rescue primarily.


Xill, according to you, there should NEVER be an Annulment.
You'd happily risk the entire world a thousand times over for a single mage.
Frotuntely, templars ren't that insane.

It is a miracle that there were any survivors at all. The warden suceeded only because he's the PC and this is a game. In any realistic situation he would be dead a thousand times over.

Simply put, any competent commander would deem storming the tower too risky and not worth it.

#853
Lotion Soronarr

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ianvillan wrote...
Greagoir only had a safe and fortified position thanks to a mages shield that prevented abominations from getting through to them and the outside world, yet he wants to still kill all of the remaining mages that are keeping him and his Templars safe and preventing the abominations running loose.


Unsupported. The main doors are very sturdy and magicly enhanced. Wynnes shield may very well be irrelevant.

Also, the cutscene when you enter the tower shows templars holdign the door shut against a pounding abomination. So it appears Wynnes shield did let some trough.

But then again..cuscenes.


If the Templars truly valued their vows about protecting mages then Greagoir should of tried to save others that might of been trapped inside even if it meant his life and fighting Abominations is meant to be a main tenant of the Templars.


The templars also have their woves to protest the common folk and Gregoir also has a duty to his subordiantes as a commander.
They *could* have charged in. But that woudl risk abominatiosn getting out, even if they were victorious. And if they weren't, that would mean there would be nothing between the abominations and the common folk outside.

The Warden with 3 followers saved the remaining mages ended the main threat from the Abominations and Greagoir still wants to annul the Tower and kill the surviving mages including the children because of paranoia and fear that the rest will also turn into Abominations and it takes the Warden to prevent him from doing so not his vows or any friendship or compassion for the mages.


The warden is irrelevant. He is the PC and thus an almighty god that can do anything. Honestly, the game can have you face 3 high dragon in a loincloth and you coudl stil lwin by save-scumming.
And since there's no way to detect an abomination while it's hiding in it's host, the paranoia is justified.

You do not seem to comprehend the enormity of responsibiltiy being a Knight-Commander entails.
Firendship and compassion must not override duty.

#854
TEWR

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Xilizhra wrote...

Vicious wrote...

The inquisition is about protecting people from Demons. There's no reason NOT to have a Templar in the ranks. The Inquisition is, after all, the original proto-templar organization.

Well, they're an enemy army in need of obliteration.


By some of the things I've read, you can't obliterate them.

But you can sure as hell kick their asses to kingdom come, then take on the remnants under your command. They'll probably resent you for it though.

Which will be fun, but I'm going to attempt diplomacy first before storming the castle.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 septembre 2013 - 07:58 .


#855
TEWR

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Also, the cutscene when you enter the tower shows templars holdign the door shut against a pounding abomination. So it appears Wynnes shield did let some trough.


No, it doesn't actually. Gregoir says he wants two men stationed within sight of the door at all times, and those two men have their weapons drawn just in case something does get through. Just watched the scene itself.

But there isn't a pounding at all. Nor is there any enemy of any type -- corpse or living -- to be fought until you meet Wynne.

#856
Deebo305

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In a way Seekers are basically just Super Templars so...Cassandra? Or is this another Cullen thread in disguise

#857
Lotion Soronarr

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DarthLaxian wrote...

no, it's only natural, if you give one group complete power over another (without appeal, due process (or at least: with them being able to toss that out without the other group really having a chance to protest to a higher authority - and if they do, that authority does not help (like the grand-cleric of Kirkwall against Meredith)) and rights that can't be ignored), propaganda that paints one side as evil and the other as pure good and always right etc.)

it's a form of MILGRAM EXPERIMENT - and a very "successfull" one (if you are on the side of the chantry), without the electro shocks (in this case: tranquility, harrowings, beatings, other abuse, vilification and even rape and murder) being fake

congratulations, you just artificially produced psychopaths and victims (and if the victims defend themselves with the only way they can (blood-magic - as all other magic is negated by templars!!!), you even have the right to put them to death no questions asked (!))...very nice....sorry, but this is un-acceptable (protecting the common-people my behind - it's just a lie, as most mages would just want to live a quiet more or less normal live and the few special cases could be dealt with, if one gave each town a few templars (and well trained mages) to hunt down those becoming a danger!)


You are wrong. Mages have rights and can't be put to the sword at a whim.
The system of course isn't perfect - especially in Kirkwall - but it's not as bad as you make it to be.

As is evident by many tempalrs and mages being very friendly (or more).
There is no lie.
But pro-mages want it to be one... and seriously, why is it that ayn thread that has the word "templar" automaticly drawn in pro-mages who automaticly attack them, regardless of hteactual topic?

Just look at the topic title.. Look at it everyone. Yes, I mean you.
Look and read.
Does that look like "debates on templars/circles/mages and right and wrong"?
No? Thought so.

So why the frak are you ass**** still de-railing the thread?

#858
ianvillan

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Deebo305 wrote...

In a way Seekers are basically just Super Templars so...Cassandra? Or is this another Cullen thread in disguise


Cullen is too much of an unstable zealot to me I would prefer a Templar like one of the two Templars in DA2 who should any decency and truly tried to keep to their vows and ideals, I cant remember their names so good but I think one was Ser Alrik who was willing to protect the escaped mages from his extreme cohorts. Or the other Templar who cared about murdered citizens even when the Templars didn't.

#859
TEWR

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ianvillan wrote...

Deebo305 wrote...

In a way Seekers are basically just Super Templars so...Cassandra? Or is this another Cullen thread in disguise


Cullen is too much of an unstable zealot to me I would prefer a Templar like one of the two Templars in DA2 who should any decency and truly tried to keep to their vows and ideals, I cant remember their names so good but I think one was Ser Alrik who was willing to protect the escaped mages from his extreme cohorts. Or the other Templar who cared about murdered citizens even when the Templars didn't.


Ser Alrik was the one who wanted to Tranquilize every single Mage so he could have his sex slaves.

The two you're thinking of are Thrask and Emeric, respectively.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 septembre 2013 - 08:00 .


#860
wolfhowwl

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Alrik was a crazed zealot.

You mean Thrask. But he went too far in the other direction and his weakness and sympathy for the mages got him killed.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 24 septembre 2013 - 08:03 .


#861
ianvillan

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DarthLaxian wrote...

no, it's only natural, if you give one group complete power over another (without appeal, due process (or at least: with them being able to toss that out without the other group really having a chance to protest to a higher authority - and if they do, that authority does not help (like the grand-cleric of Kirkwall against Meredith)) and rights that can't be ignored), propaganda that paints one side as evil and the other as pure good and always right etc.)

it's a form of MILGRAM EXPERIMENT - and a very "successfull" one (if you are on the side of the chantry), without the electro shocks (in this case: tranquility, harrowings, beatings, other abuse, vilification and even rape and murder) being fake

congratulations, you just artificially produced psychopaths and victims (and if the victims defend themselves with the only way they can (blood-magic - as all other magic is negated by templars!!!), you even have the right to put them to death no questions asked (!))...very nice....sorry, but this is un-acceptable (protecting the common-people my behind - it's just a lie, as most mages would just want to live a quiet more or less normal live and the few special cases could be dealt with, if one gave each town a few templars (and well trained mages) to hunt down those becoming a danger!)


You are wrong. Mages have rights and can't be put to the sword at a whim.
The system of course isn't perfect - especially in Kirkwall - but it's not as bad as you make it to be.

As is evident by many tempalrs and mages being very friendly (or more).
There is no lie.
But pro-mages want it to be one... and seriously, why is it that ayn thread that has the word "templar" automaticly drawn in pro-mages who automaticly attack them, regardless of hteactual topic?

Just look at the topic title.. Look at it everyone. Yes, I mean you.
Look and read.
Does that look like "debates on templars/circles/mages and right and wrong"?
No? Thought so.

So why the frak are you ass**** still de-railing the thread?


Yet if a knight commander deems a mage dangerous can make them tranquil with no right of appeal for the mage and if a knight commander deems a circle to be corrupted or lost can order the right of annulment to kill the mages in the circle including innocent ones even children.

Your right about pro-mages coming into threads which they shouldn't same as pro-Templars come into mages threads and fight their side of the story, it is something that will keep happening until Bioware deals with the issue in a game.

#862
ianvillan

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wolfhowwl wrote...

Alrik was a crazed zealot.

You mean Thrask. But he went too far in the other direction and his weakness and sympathy for the mages got him killed.


Yes Thrask sorry I should of known Alrik of all people was the craziest of the lot. It comes to something that the one Templar the majority of fans like is Alister and he was a sort of failed Templar who never took vows.

#863
ianvillan

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If we get a Templar companion in the new game I would like them to hate the red Templars not because they may be corrupted by red lyrium but because they truly believe in their position on mages and want to kill them all, To see our Templar companion willing to protect a group of innocent mages from the red Templars even if it means their life would go a long way to show what the Templars stand for and that they are good people in an impossible position.

The companion could still have their beliefs about mages and think the circle system while having its faults could be be fixed and can work well for all mages and ordinary people, but not be one who believes all mages are cursed and can turn into an abomination at the slightest mood.

Modifié par ianvillan, 24 septembre 2013 - 08:23 .


#864
Lotion Soronarr

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ianvillan wrote...
Yet if a knight commander deems a mage dangerous can make them tranquil with no right of appeal for the mage and if a knight commander deems a circle to be corrupted or lost can order the right of annulment to kill the mages in the circle including innocent ones even children.


1) He cannot act alone on that one. Tranquilisation is in general decided upoin with the Frist Enchanter. And after a harrowing it is not allowed, except under special circumstances (blood magic)

So what Alarik was doing was against the law.
A law being broken doesn't mean there isn't one. Every now and then police officers are caught breakign the law. Some are enver caught. Does that mean the police forces areounf the world are a faliure?

2) Right of Annulment is an extreeme measure that requires further approval by a Reverend Mother.
A RoA isn't called in lightly since it's the nuclear option.

#865
Kaiser Arian XVII

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A law being broken doesn't mean there isn't one. Every now and then police officers are caught breakign the law. Some are enver caught. Does that mean the police forces areounf the world are a faliure?


Exceptions... some use them to criticize the whole system (or Idea) and everything they don't like, and/or use them for propaganda and spreading their favorite system, anarchy, hippieness etc. They can easily be solved.

Systematic corruption is different from these exceptions and should be discovered and resolved, because it's a good excuse to change the system if reformation is not possible.

Modifié par Kaiser Arian, 24 septembre 2013 - 09:21 .


#866
ianvillan

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Yet if a knight commander deems a mage dangerous can make them tranquil with no right of appeal for the mage and if a knight commander deems a circle to be corrupted or lost can order the right of annulment to kill the mages in the circle including innocent ones even children.


1) He cannot act alone on that one. Tranquilisation is in general decided upoin with the Frist Enchanter. And after a harrowing it is not allowed, except under special circumstances (blood magic)

So what Alarik was doing was against the law.
A law being broken doesn't mean there isn't one. Every now and then police officers are caught breakign the law. Some are enver caught. Does that mean the police forces areounf the world are a faliure?

2) Right of Annulment is an extreeme measure that requires further approval by a Reverend Mother.
A RoA isn't called in lightly since it's the nuclear option.


1) What if the first enchanter does not agree is it dropped or do they go over the head of the first enchanter anyway and then view the first enchanter as a danger. What if they want it on the first enchanter himself can he say he doesn't agree to it. Does the mage in question have a right to a trial in front of other mages and other knight commanders in case the knight commander of his circle has a grudge against him.

2) The right of annulment is an extreme measure yet 3 (maybe 4) that we know of have been called in the last 10 -15 years with no penalties of those who called them and no outcry from the chantry to why the knight commanders have called so many.

What recourse does a circle have against the right of annulment do other circles come in to assess the situation and find out what happened and who if anyone is guilty, do other knight commander hold a meeting to see if it is justified in being carried out, where are the seekers who are meant to police the Templars do they investigate to see if it is justified. Or do the whole circle including children and elderly get punished with no recourse on the whim of one person.

As for having the reverend mother approve it we have been shown how a reverend mother cannot overrule a knight commander even if they wanted to. not taking into account incompetent reverend mother or ones in collusion with the knight commander.

Modifié par ianvillan, 24 septembre 2013 - 09:26 .


#867
Sir JK

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ianvillan wrote...
1) What if the first enchanter does not agree is it dropped or do they go over the head of the first enchanter anyway and then view the first enchanter as a danger. What if they want it on the first enchanter himself can he say he doesn't agree to it. Does the mage in question have a right to a trial in front of other mages and other knight commanders in case the knight commander of his circle has a grudge against him.


Bear in mind that information regarding this is limited indeed and even so, exactly how strictly the templars follow these rules is a bit varied, but this is my understanding of this anyways:

If the First Enchanter does not agree then the case remains opened until enough evidence can be gathered to sway either side or until the First Enchanter drops his opposition.

First Enchanters may not be tranquilised since they can only be chosen (with the KC having a right to veto) from senior enchanters. Since all enchanters have passed their harrowing (or they'd be dead) and noone that has passed a harrowing may be legally tranquilized (in theory, and mind this is pure speculation on my part, this would also mean they cannot legally tranquilize apostates).

From what I understand, trials are not normal procedures. For the most part, apprentices will not know they're being investigated for the Rite. It's a closed affair between Knight Commander and the First Enchanter. Much like the Harrowing is. The First Enchanter is supposed to represent you and the Knight Commander the security interests

2) The right of annulment is an extreme measure yet 3 (maybe 4) that we know of have been called in the last 10 -15 years with no penalties of those who called them and no outcry from the chantry to why the knight commanders have called so many.

What recourse does a circle have against the right of annulment do other circles come in to assess the situation and find out what happened and who if anyone is guilty, do other knight commander hold a meeting to see if it is justified in being carried out, where are the seekers who are meant to police the Templars do they investigate to see if it is justified. Or do the whole circle including children and elderly get punished with no recourse on the whim of one person.

As for having the reverend mother approve it we have been shown how a reverend mother cannot overrule a knight commander even if they wanted to. not taking into account incompetent reverend mother or ones in collusion with the knight commander.


This is less known. We know it's supposed to be issued by Grand Clerics (and only Grand Clerics).
Presumably, and this is me speculating again, it's to create a degree of separation between the decision and the circle itself. So that a frustrated Knight-Commander cannot issue one to deal with a rebellious tower. Instead the Grand Cleric, who has no direct oversight of the tower (since they're not in it nor in chanrge of the templars operation there) and is sworn to the protection of their flock (which includes the mages). I am guessing they'd prefer if it was issued by the Divine herself, since then there'd be two degrees of separation (and the Divine does not appoint her Knight Commanders) but that this is shot down due to practical reasons (when you have a tower full of abominations, you do not want to wait 2 months for a letter to come back from Val Royeux only to hear that her holiness is currently in Halamshiral).

As for oversight... the seekers are supposed to handle it. But we know little about how they work.

Given that the Right is only supposed to be called against abominations (or if no other alternative exist, blood mages) the point of having it challenged and examined is kind of moot. It's not supposed to deal with rebellion, but disaster. Remember, it was originally created following a single abomination killing every mage and templar in the Nevarran circle.

I should note that it's blatantly clear that in the Dragon Age the Right of Annulment shows serious signs of being abused. Kinlochs hold was legally justified (since it was exactly the kind of disaster it's supposed to be used against) but unneccessary, Kirkwall and Darsmuid was definantely not. The remaining ones (1 or two if Kirkwall does not count after all) are unknown.

#868
Mister Gusty

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If there was to be a templar companion I would prefer a more seasoned and older character(male or female) such as a former/current Knight Commander, that would be much more interesting than having Cullen or some female templar for the sole purpose of romancing which everyone seems to be obsessed with.

#869
Br3admax

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Mister Gusty wrote...

If there was to be a templar companion I would prefer a more seasoned and older character(male or female) such as a former/current Knight Commander, that would be much more interesting than having Cullen or some female templar for the sole purpose of romancing which everyone seems to be obsessed with.

Nope. I actually hate it when characters are added just for romance. I'd like them to at least be concrete characters without that.

#870
DarthLaxian

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not necessarily, but there should never have been an Annulment; the reinforcements should have been there to rescue primarily.


Xill, according to you, there should NEVER be an Annulment.
You'd happily risk the entire world a thousand times over for a single mage.
Frotuntely, templars ren't that insane.

It is a miracle that there were any survivors at all. The warden suceeded only because he's the PC and this is a game. In any realistic situation he would be dead a thousand times over.

Simply put, any competent commander would deem storming the tower too risky and not worth it.


indeed, there should not be (killing innocents is not something you do if you can help it - annulments should only be possible if the whole circle is already dead (!))

greetings LAX

#871
SeismicGravy

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I agree, but I think there should be conditions.

For example - A templar probably wouldn't think twice about joining a rogue or warrior class protagonist, but it would take a huge amount of convincing to stop one from trying to turn your mage character tranquil.

Modifié par SeismicGravy, 24 septembre 2013 - 11:48 .


#872
Br3admax

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SeismicGravy wrote...

I agree, but I think there should be conditions.

For example - A templar probably wouldn't think twice about joining a rogue or warrior class protagonist, but it would take a huge amount of convincing to stop one from trying to turn your mage character tranquil.

Because every single member of the Templar order is a power mad, mage hater. Every single one. 

#873
ianvillan

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Br3ad wrote...

SeismicGravy wrote...

I agree, but I think there should be conditions.

For example - A templar probably wouldn't think twice about joining a rogue or warrior class protagonist, but it would take a huge amount of convincing to stop one from trying to turn your mage character tranquil.

Because every single member of the Templar order is a power mad, mage hater. Every single one. 


Yet every mage is either an insane blood mage, a new tevinter convert or a ticking time tomb about to turn into an abomination.  because these seem to be the justifications the circle supporters give in their reasoning's.

#874
dragonflight288

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ianvillan wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

SeismicGravy wrote...

I agree, but I think there should be conditions.

For example - A templar probably wouldn't think twice about joining a rogue or warrior class protagonist, but it would take a huge amount of convincing to stop one from trying to turn your mage character tranquil.

Because every single member of the Templar order is a power mad, mage hater. Every single one. 


Yet every mage is either an insane blood mage, a new tevinter convert or a ticking time tomb about to turn into an abomination.  because these seem to be the justifications the circle supporters give in their reasoning's.


Or in the case of some, because they have shelter, food and an education (payed for by the Tranquil selling wares, and enchantment services, not charity, I should add) they should be content with however the templars and Chantry treat them no matter how bad it may be.

#875
ianvillan

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dragonflight288 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...


Yet every mage is either an insane blood mage, a new tevinter convert or a ticking time tomb about to turn into an abomination.  because these seem to be the justifications the circle supporters give in their reasoning's.


Or in the case of some, because they have shelter, food and an education (payed for by the Tranquil selling wares, and enchantment services, not charity, I should add) they should be content with however the templars and Chantry treat them no matter how bad it may be.


Which the chantry seems to never run out of, Its as if they were able to create them on demand to keep the circles funded.