935 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]Well. I don't like Tranquility either, but Irving isn't Alrik, he was NOT presented as being the sort of Templar who renders mages Tranquil for no reason. Context is everything, and in context, Greagoir is NOT the horrible bastard tyrant you're insisting he is. He IS a reasonable templar. He handled Jowan within the law, and we're even told that he acquiesced to Irving's wishes in how to proceed. [/quote]
Yes, he handled Jowan within the law... and the law sucks, and enforcing it perfectly says bad things about the enforcer. If you're a templar, you're pretty much either a tyrant or a traitor.[/quote]

Well, as long as you recognize that this is your opinion and not an objective fact.  I agree that the law regarding mages sucks, but I do not believe for an instant that templars are or have to be either/or.  There are plenty of examples of reasonable templars who don't believe in excess, who do believe that reform is necessary and good, etc.  Your refusal to acknowledge this is beside the point.

[quote]
[quote]Ah. I'd forgotten that from the DA2 prologue. Sorry, but it sounds a LOT more like an oversight by the writers. Nothing about Bryant's character in Origins even vaguely hints that he and the priests planned to abandon Lothering, and I seriously doubt the writers would have deliberately retconned such a detail.[/quote]
He would leave, presumably, because he answers to the revered mother and the revered mother would have said so. The templars' duty is ultimately to the Chantry, after all. And there are several mentions of the Chantry packing up and fleeing in DAO.[/quote]

What mentions?  The Lothering mother DOES indicate that they plan to evacuate the people, but I recall no mentions of the Chantry ultimately abandoning them instead.  My previous point stands.

[quote]Wow. That's actually kind of...did you play the same game I did? The scenes between Irving and Greagoir make it abundantly clear that Irving is nobody's shill. He has a difficult job to do, and yes, he makes decisions that are rather sh*tty toward individual mages, but it's well established that he does this because of the hard position he's forced into, not because he happily dances to Greagoir's tune. [/quote]
It's one of those situations where I much prefer Orsino.[/quote]

I prefer Orsino myself, but that's because Meredith was a far worse templar.  Orsino had to behave as he did specifically because Meredith was NOT reasonable like Greagoir.

[Xilizhra]

Well, as long as you recognize that this is your opinion and not an objective fact. I agree that the law regarding mages sucks, but I do not believe for an instant that templars are or have to be either/or. There are plenty of examples of reasonable templars who don't believe in excess, who do believe that reform is necessary and good, etc. Your refusal to acknowledge this is beside the point.

Either they're going against the Order or going too far in serving it, because serving it is going too far.

What mentions? The Lothering mother DOES indicate that they plan to evacuate the people, but I recall no mentions of the Chantry ultimately abandoning them instead. My previous point stands.

Plans change, apparently. We can't call it noncanon if we don't know what happened between scenes.

I prefer Orsino myself, but that's because Meredith was a far worse templar. Orsino had to behave as he did specifically because Meredith was NOT reasonable like Greagoir.

Greagoir was never reasonable. The job sort of selects out reasonable people.

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, as long as you recognize that this is your opinion and not an objective fact. I agree that the law regarding mages sucks, but I do not believe for an instant that templars are or have to be either/or. There are plenty of examples of reasonable templars who don't believe in excess, who do believe that reform is necessary and good, etc. Your refusal to acknowledge this is beside the point.

Either they're going against the Order or going too far in serving it, because serving it is going too far.

What mentions? The Lothering mother DOES indicate that they plan to evacuate the people, but I recall no mentions of the Chantry ultimately abandoning them instead. My previous point stands.

Plans change, apparently. We can't call it noncanon if we don't know what happened between scenes.

You'll have to excuse me if I think you're misremembering or mis-interpreting lore.  Again, I recall no mentions of the Lothering Chantry choosing to abandon the people.  I DO remember explicit mentions of evacuating them.  

I prefer Orsino myself, but that's because Meredith was a far worse templar. Orsino had to behave as he did specifically because Meredith was NOT reasonable like Greagoir.

Greagoir was never reasonable. The job sort of selects out reasonable people.

In order to believe this, I have to accept your either/or premise, and I don't.  I don't think that because the Circle system itself sucks, and the law is stacked against mages, that it automatically means that all templars are unreasonable just for their existence.  This kind of black and white either/or scenario is absurd in the extreme.

Modifié par Silfren, 19 septembre 2013 - 10:09 .

[Xilizhra]

You'll have to excuse me if I think you're misremembering or mis-interpreting lore. Again, I recall no mentions of the Lothering Chantry choosing to abandon the people. I DO remember explicit mentions of evacuating them.

Bethany explicitly says "I thought they all abandoned Lothering." I'm not misremembering anything.

In order to believe this, I have to accept your either/or premise, and I don't. I don't think that because the Circle system itself sucks, and the law is stacked against mages, that it automatically means that all templars are unreasonable just for their existence. This kind of black and white either/or scenario is absurd in the extreme.

Not for their existence, for their choice to follow the role the Order set for them.

[Sandy]

Bottom line for me is that since the conflict is called the Mage- Templar War... if we get even one mage in the party it would only be fair to get at least one templar as well. And no, Cassandra doesn't count, she isn't a templar.

Personally I'm hoping for Cullen. He was a cool character with both (good) character flaws and redeeming qualities.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

You'll have to excuse me if I think you're misremembering or mis-interpreting lore. Again, I recall no mentions of the Lothering Chantry choosing to abandon the people. I DO remember explicit mentions of evacuating them.

Bethany explicitly says "I thought they all abandoned Lothering." I'm not misremembering anything.

She also says why did they wait so long to leave. You can't just pick and choose parts of dialogue to defend your argument.

 

In order to believe this, I have to accept your either/or premise, and I don't. I don't think that because the Circle system itself sucks, and the law is stacked against mages, that it automatically means that all templars are unreasonable just for their existence. This kind of black and white either/or scenario is absurd in the extreme.

Not for their existence, for their choice to follow the role the Order set for them.

The Templars do not run anything. Stop talking. 

[Reaverwind]

sandellniklas wrote...

Bottom line for me is that since the conflict is called the Mage- Templar War... if we get even one mage in the party it would only be fair to get at least one templar as well. And no, Cassandra doesn't count, she isn't a templar.

Personally I'm hoping for Cullen. He was a cool character with both (good) character flaws and redeeming qualities.

I don't care who it is, so long as he/she is a Templar, without the whininess of certain DA2 companions.

[Sister Goldring]

I don't find Cullen in anyway bland or dull and his presence in the past games has established quite a comprehensive backstory for the character. I hope that he is included as a companion character. I'd like to see what he has become....god I hope it's not leader of the glowing-eyed Templars of crazy!

So I would like a Templar companion and I would like that companion to be Cullen.

[DarthLaxian]

TommyServo wrote...

I would put ten bucks on you getting your wish with Cullen.

agreed - and i am not even going to complain (even though it is fan-service - at least in part), because i like the character (i would have prefered an orlesian templar with chevalier or nobility (the higher the better IMHO - as that makes complicated companion-quests involving "the game" possible) background - or, even better, a tevinter black-chantry templar (!)...even more so one that does not hate mages blindly (or pity them!))

greetings LAX

[Br3admax]

Dude, the Seekers are the faction that leads the Templars and works for the Divine herself. Check the wiki again, not just that one quote.

[Reaverwind]

Br3ad wrote...

Dude, the Seekers are the faction that leads the Templars and works for the Divine herself. Check the wiki again, not just that one quote.

"Leads the Templars" does not equate to "comprised of Templars". Note that Leliana is a Seeker, and we know for a fact she's no Templar.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 19 septembre 2013 - 10:50 .

[Br3admax]

Reaverwind wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Dude, the Seekers are the faction that leads the Templars and works for the Divine herself. Check the wiki again, not just that one quote.

"Leads the Templars" does not equate to "comprised of Templars". You will note the Leliana is a Seeker, and we know for a fact she's no Templar.

Varric calls the Seekers Templars and Cassandra does not even attempt to correct him. They are very close nit, and when the Seekrs left, the Templars went with them. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Reaverwind wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Dude, the Seekers are the faction that leads the Templars and works for the Divine herself. Check the wiki again, not just that one quote.

"Leads the Templars" does not equate to "comprised of Templars". Note that Leliana is a Seeker, and we know for a fact she's no Templar.

https://twitter.com/...019473398939648

[Br3admax]

Does being a Ranger stop you from being in the Army? Or a S.E.A.L. the Navy?

[Br3admax]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Are you saying there is no mentality difference between a Ranger and a random infantry private? And in this case, it's a Ranger who takes his orders directly from the Secretary of Defense.

That's not what I said at all. 

[Merlex]

Dark Korsar wrote...

only if we would have a option to not have him/her and kill him/her if we want

i do not want be forced to have fanatical mindless lyrium junkie in my party, as any from Orlais Chantry

You mean like we were forced, to have a crazed fanatical Apostate Mage/ Abomination murderer in our parties? Or the Blood Mage, who thought is was a good idea, to make deals with demons? And a bad idea to refuse such deals? Whose relentless pursuit of forbidden knowledge, against all wise advise, endangered her entire clan? Yeah i see what you mean.

You could always leave the templar, cooling his/her heels at camp, except during their personal quests. I like exploring games from all angles. In DA2, i played a diplomatic neutral/ funny (picked Mages at the end) Shadow/ Assassin, a diplomatic pro-Mage Controller Mage, an aggressive pro-Templar S&S Reaver/ Templar, an aggressive  pro-Mage evil Blood Mage, and a sarcastic neutral/ pro-Templar Archer. I like my RPG games to have many shades of gray.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Leliana wasn't a Chantry assassin at the time and she didn't have much to say on the Templar-Mage dynamic. Certainly not the same as a member of the Templar Order would, anyway.

Right, but I'd probably have to kill a member of the Templar Order who wanted to follow me around, if I couldn't convert them out of it. 

I think a templar companion would be extremely problematic for a protagonist who is going to engage in activities that go against the Seekers of Truth and the Order of Templars, since the Inquisiton is said to be created in opposition to the Andrastian Chantry. A violent confrontation, like the ones that could transpire in Origins between The Warden and the companions who wanted to leave (or opposed the protagonist's actions) during the Fifth Blight, makes sense to me.

That said, I'm not certain why a templar would lend aid to a main character who is an apostate, or one who is taking action that goes against the Chantry of Andraste and the Templar Order.

My interest in a Dalish protagonist makes me think that having a companion like Cassandra (or possibly Cullen) could lead to a violent confrontation sooner or later. Perhaps the protagonist has the choice to turn them down (like The Warden could with Leliana in Lothering), although I recall Gaider saying some companions would be mandatory (via Dragon Age II), which I think is unfortunate.