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A matter of consequences


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#126
Xilizhra

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I often start with a single principle, but the decision-making later is simply a matter of determining that principle's relevance to the question at hand. 


And yet, as intriguing as all of that sounds, people just flip on the game and say "pander to me." So poking these players out of their usual habits of hero worship and simply being a stereotypical "good guy" may need to become priorities for a developer before they can even begin to assume players are going to have such high levels of complexity in character crafting. 

So I guess what I'm saying... is if you hope for developers to keep flexible enough in terms of roleplaying freedom to continue to support (either implicitly or explicitly) your level of craft, it may serve your best interests to ensure that Bioware does anything and everything to make their players think about their own characters and their own mindsets, because otherwise, the lowest common denominator is going to be quite low. 

Notable... certainly you can make the best solution be somewhat difficult to find, but I believe that it should exist and be discernible, in most cases.

I basically cannot stand being evil, and won't have fun with something that forces me to be.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 septembre 2013 - 11:13 .


#127
Wulfram

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Dave of Canada wrote...

I loved whoever wrote the scene where you shoot Mordin, I'd love to see a lot more of that spread out so people feel terrible about their decisions and reflect upon them.


I don't generally play games to feel terrible.  Feeling terrible isn't fun for me.

I have an ME3 import where circumstances lead to my character shooting mordin in the back, and not being able to get peace on Rannoch, which was particularly depressing because this was a character whose initial concept was perhaps my most Paragon.  That playthrough was a good intense experience.  But it's also the import I've never replayed, because I don't sit down at my computer to be depressed.

I feel similarly about the Walking Dead.  I almost had to force myself to play the final episode.

#128
Cainhurst Crow

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I often start with a single principle, but the decision-making later is simply a matter of determining that principle's relevance to the question at hand. 


And yet, as intriguing as all of that sounds, people just flip on the game and say "pander to me." So poking these players out of their usual habits of hero worship and simply being a stereotypical "good guy" may need to become priorities for a developer before they can even begin to assume players are going to have such high levels of complexity in character crafting. 


Isn't that a bit pretentious? Also, it honestly screams of "stop playing how I don't play!"

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 19 septembre 2013 - 11:16 .


#129
DeinonSlayer

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I always think of the Arl of Redcliffe quest in DA:O. The "easy-out" option where you go to the Circle Tower to avoid any sacrifice.

Right now, it's the "no-cost" option, the "safe" option - what, in Mass Effect, would more likely than not be treated as an upper-left-blue "get out of jail free" card. However, we're told the round-trip from Redcliffe to the Circle Tower takes over a week. By the time the Warden got back, I wouldn't think it inappropriate to find Redcliffe Village once again came under attack from the demon's waves of undead, thanks to the Warden's compulsive need to save everyone overriding expediency in a time-sensitive situation.

Think about it. Factor in metagaming. On a second playthrough, you'd know ahead of time that the effort would be doomed to fail. Would you do it anyway, on principle, even knowing the universe won't twist itself out of shape to reward you for it? What does that say about your PC?

Robert Heinlein once delivered a graduation speech at Annapolis which seems relevant.

EDIT: Dead link, included the speech below. I'd be curious who agrees with the sentiment, why, or why not. What matters more, success, or the effort made trying?

"I said that 'Patriotism' is a way of saying 'Women and children first.' And that no one can force a man to feel this way. Instead he must embrace it freely. I want to tell about one such man. He wore no uniform and no one knows his name, or where he came from; all we know is what he did.

In my home town sixty years ago when I was a child, my mother and father used to take me and my brothers and sisters out to Swope Park on Sunday afternoons. It was a wonderful place for kids, with picnic grounds and lakes and a zoo. But a railroad line cut straight through it.

One Sunday afternoon a young married couple were crossing these tracks. She apparently did not watch her step, for she managed to catch her foot in the frog of a switch to a siding and could not pull it free. Her husband stopped to help her.

But try as they might they could not get her foot loose. While they were working at it, a tramp showed up, walking the ties. He joined the husband in trying to pull the young woman's foot loose. No luck —

Out of sight around the curve a train whistled. Perhaps there would have been time to run and flag it down, perhaps not. In any case both men went right ahead trying to pull her free... and the train hit them.

The wife was killed, the husband was mortally injured and died later, the tramp was killed — and testimony showed that neither man made the slightest effort to save himself.

The husband's behavior was heroic... but what we expect of a husband toward his wife: his right, and his proud privilege, to die for his woman. But what of this nameless stranger? Up to the very last second he could have jumped clear. He did not. He was still trying to save this woman he had never seen before in his life, right up to the very instant the train killed him. And that's all we'll ever know about him.

This is how a man dies.

This is how a man... lives!"

When you make a decision knowing you'll be validated for doing so before you even get to it - knowing that your efforts will succeed because it's the "paragon" option - I personally think it cheapens the story and makes it too predictable. We shouldn't be able to consistently click the same spot on a dialogue wheel knowing it will make everything work out for the best no matter what.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 septembre 2013 - 11:35 .


#130
Fast Jimmy

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Xilizhra wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I often start with a single principle, but the decision-making later is simply a matter of determining that principle's relevance to the question at hand. 


And yet, as intriguing as all of that sounds, people just flip on the game and say "pander to me." So poking these players out of their usual habits of hero worship and simply being a stereotypical "good guy" may need to become priorities for a developer before they can even begin to assume players are going to have such high levels of complexity in character crafting. 

So I guess what I'm saying... is if you hope for developers to keep flexible enough in terms of roleplaying freedom to continue to support (either implicitly or explicitly) your level of craft, it may serve your best interests to ensure that Bioware does anything and everything to make their players think about their own characters and their own mindsets, because otherwise, the lowest common denominator is going to be quite low. 

Notable... certainly you can make the best solution be somewhat difficult to find, but I believe that it should exist and be discernible, in most cases.

I basically cannot stand being evil, and won't have fun with something that forces me to be.

The fact that you think there is an evil choice in any Bioware game just goes to show how unbalanced Bioware has been in providing the "good" choices in their games. 

#131
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Wulfram wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I loved whoever wrote the scene where you shoot Mordin, I'd love to see a lot more of that spread out so people feel terrible about their decisions and reflect upon them.


I don't generally play games to feel terrible.  Feeling terrible isn't fun for me.

I feel similarly about the Walking Dead.  I almost had to force myself to play the final episode.

Personally, I loved feeling terrible about my decisions in TWD.

I have to wonder why you'd play it in the first place if you didn't though. It's not exactly something you go into expecting it to be sunshine and daisies.

#132
Steelcan

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@DeinonSlayer,

This might just be my highly sensitive self-preservation instinct, but I'd get out of the way at some point.

#133
Maria Caliban

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

The fact that you think there is an evil choice in any Bioware game just goes to show how unbalanced Bioware has been in providing the "good" choices in their games. 


So... forcing someone to murder their own friend because that friend disagrees with you is not evil?

What about the one where you can devour a god's spirit to take its power for yourself?

What about the one where you electrocute a slave whenever she talks to you?

#134
Xilizhra

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I always think of the Arl of Redcliffe quest in DA:O. The "easy-out" option where you go to the Circle Tower to avoid any sacrifice.

Right now, it's the "no-cost" option, the "safe" option - what, in Mass Effect, would more likely than not be treated as an upper-left-blue "get out of jail free" card. However, we're told the round-trip from Redcliffe to the Circle Tower takes over a week. By the time the Warden got back, I wouldn't think it inappropriate to find Redcliffe Village once again came under attack from the demon's waves of undead, thanks to the Warden's compulsive need to save everyone overriding expediency in a time-sensitive situation.

You might... except that the undead are already all smashed, and Andrastians burn their dead, so with the castle's staff all gone (I presume that's where the original waves came from, along with killed townsfolk), the demon would have to kill people personally to get more, and now they consist of a bunch of heavily armed knights. Also, it's afraid of violence. It's safe enough, though you probably shouldn't dawdle.

EDIT: Dead link, included the speech below. I'd be curious who agrees with the sentiment, why, or why not. What matters more, success, or the effort made trying?

Circumstantial.

The fact that you think there is an evil choice in any Bioware game just goes to show how unbalanced Bioware has been in providing the "good" choices in their games.

I don't know, I'm fine with it thus far. DAO has a decent balance.

#135
Wulfram

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't generally play games to feel terrible.  Feeling terrible isn't fun for me.

I feel similarly about the Walking Dead.  I almost had to force myself to play the final episode.

Personally, I loved feeling terrible about my decisions in TWD.

I have to wonder why you'd play it in the first place if you didn't though. It's not exactly something you go into expecting it to be sunshine and daisies.


I mostly got TWD because some guy on these forums liked it a lot, and it was on sale.

But I don't mind that sort of things some times.  It's just the sort of thing I want to do every 6 months, maybe, while a more cheerful Bioware game'll leave me wanting to go do it all again as soon as I'm finished.

#136
DeinonSlayer

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The fact that you think there is an evil choice in any Bioware game just goes to show how unbalanced Bioware has been in providing the "good" choices in their games. 


So... forcing someone to murder their own friend because that friend disagrees with you is not evil?

What about the one where you can devour a god's spirit to take its power for yourself?

What about the one where you electrocute a slave whenever she talks to you?

It is evil.

Thing is, a human being shouldn't need a "karma meter" in front of their face to tell them that. Better for people to reflect on these things themselves.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 septembre 2013 - 11:38 .


#137
Steelcan

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the devouring a god one is tempting....

#138
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Steelcan wrote...

the devouring a god one is tempting....

I don't think I've ever done that in a Bioware game, but it was pretty fun in God of War.

#139
Gwydden

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Xilizhra wrote...

I always think of the Arl of Redcliffe quest in DA:O. The "easy-out" option where you go to the Circle Tower to avoid any sacrifice.

Right now, it's the "no-cost" option, the "safe" option - what, in Mass Effect, would more likely than not be treated as an upper-left-blue "get out of jail free" card. However, we're told the round-trip from Redcliffe to the Circle Tower takes over a week. By the time the Warden got back, I wouldn't think it inappropriate to find Redcliffe Village once again came under attack from the demon's waves of undead, thanks to the Warden's compulsive need to save everyone overriding expediency in a time-sensitive situation.

You might... except that the undead are already all smashed, and Andrastians burn their dead, so with the castle's staff all gone (I presume that's where the original waves came from, along with killed townsfolk), the demon would have to kill people personally to get more, and now they consist of a bunch of heavily armed knights. Also, it's afraid of violence. It's safe enough, though you probably shouldn't dawdle.


I'm curious about something. What did you think of DAO ending? Because that's all I'm asking for. There is no perfect choice there. Your PC either sacrifices himself, sacrifices a fellow warden, or makes an irresponsible deal with a more than shady witch, which is as likely to end in utter happiness as in utter disaster.

Modifié par Gwydden, 19 septembre 2013 - 11:55 .


#140
Steelcan

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

the devouring a god one is tempting....

I don't think I've ever done that in a Bioware game, but it was pretty fun in God of War.

God of War teaches us many things, like what the insides of a cyclop's digestive tract looks like

#141
Xilizhra

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Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I always think of the Arl of Redcliffe quest in DA:O. The "easy-out" option where you go to the Circle Tower to avoid any sacrifice.

Right now, it's the "no-cost" option, the "safe" option - what, in Mass Effect, would more likely than not be treated as an upper-left-blue "get out of jail free" card. However, we're told the round-trip from Redcliffe to the Circle Tower takes over a week. By the time the Warden got back, I wouldn't think it inappropriate to find Redcliffe Village once again came under attack from the demon's waves of undead, thanks to the Warden's compulsive need to save everyone overriding expediency in a time-sensitive situation.

You might... except that the undead are already all smashed, and Andrastians burn their dead, so with the castle's staff all gone (I presume that's where the original waves came from, along with killed townsfolk), the demon would have to kill people personally to get more, and now they consist of a bunch of heavily armed knights. Also, it's afraid of violence. It's safe enough, though you probably shouldn't dawdle.


I'm curious about something. What did you think of DAO ending? Because that's all I'm asking for. There is no perfect choice there. Your PC either sacrifices himself, sacrifices a fellow warden, or makes an irresponsible deal with a more than shady witch, which is as likely to end in utter happiness as in utter disaster.

The Dark Ritual was exactly what I wanted personally to begin with, so while the risk is present, it was oh-so-worth it.

#142
Fast Jimmy

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I often start with a single principle, but the decision-making later is simply a matter of determining that principle's relevance to the question at hand. 


And yet, as intriguing as all of that sounds, people just flip on the game and say "pander to me." So poking these players out of their usual habits of hero worship and simply being a stereotypical "good guy" may need to become priorities for a developer before they can even begin to assume players are going to have such high levels of complexity in character crafting. 


Isn't that a bit pretentious? Also, it honestly screams of "stop playing how I don't play!"

It does sound pretentious, yes. Sorry about that. It doesn't mean its not how I feel. 

Every other media - movies, books, television, music, etc. - all have segments of their industry that seek to better examine the human condition, to tell stories that make people think, that do more than tell a story but to touch the audience in a instrumental way.

Video games have begun to do that, and to tell stories that let us connect to characters. But most of these stories are with characters that aren't player created. Games such as RPGs are the there that lends itself easiest to player created stories, so they are in a unique position to do this in an incredibly unworn and dynamic way. 

Yet what we find is, quite often, these games that most lend themselves to experiencing a story in its most direct and intense way possible by being able to create the character who experiences this story are, instead, giving players only the most superficial of reasons and instances to explore their own characters. 

People can play the game however they wish. However, what I would hope for is Bioware to tell a story that doesn't permit, let alone encourage, mindlessly moving through the world and the setting with zero thought about their character or, even more hopefully, themselves. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 20 septembre 2013 - 12:32 .


#143
Gwydden

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Xilizhra wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I always think of the Arl of Redcliffe quest in DA:O. The "easy-out" option where you go to the Circle Tower to avoid any sacrifice.

Right now, it's the "no-cost" option, the "safe" option - what, in Mass Effect, would more likely than not be treated as an upper-left-blue "get out of jail free" card. However, we're told the round-trip from Redcliffe to the Circle Tower takes over a week. By the time the Warden got back, I wouldn't think it inappropriate to find Redcliffe Village once again came under attack from the demon's waves of undead, thanks to the Warden's compulsive need to save everyone overriding expediency in a time-sensitive situation.

You might... except that the undead are already all smashed, and Andrastians burn their dead, so with the castle's staff all gone (I presume that's where the original waves came from, along with killed townsfolk), the demon would have to kill people personally to get more, and now they consist of a bunch of heavily armed knights. Also, it's afraid of violence. It's safe enough, though you probably shouldn't dawdle.


I'm curious about something. What did you think of DAO ending? Because that's all I'm asking for. There is no perfect choice there. Your PC either sacrifices himself, sacrifices a fellow warden, or makes an irresponsible deal with a more than shady witch, which is as likely to end in utter happiness as in utter disaster.

The Dark Ritual was exactly what I wanted personally to begin with, so while the risk is present, it was oh-so-worth it.


Precisely. You thought it a good enough ending. Many other didn't. There isn't an option gamers can easily point out as the best one. Is that really something you'll fight against? No one is asking that they force players to be evil, but that they let us choose what is right and what isn't on our own.

#144
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Jimmy if you have not played it get Spec Op's the Line m8, great story there

#145
DeinonSlayer

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Steelcan wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

the devouring a god one is tempting....

I don't think I've ever done that in a Bioware game, but it was pretty fun in God of War.

God of War teaches us many things, like what the insides of a cyclop's digestive tract looks like

Between meshing and textures, the tract probably got more effort put into it than Tali's face.

#146
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Pretty sure centaurs are the ones you get to disembowel. Cyclopes you generally kill by ripping out their eye.

#147
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Still going to say I'm all in favor of moral choices as long as they're legitimate dilemmas and not just hamfisted to make each outcome perfectly balanced even if they shouldn't be.

#148
Fast Jimmy

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The fact that you think there is an evil choice in any Bioware game just goes to show how unbalanced Bioware has been in providing the "good" choices in their games. 


So... forcing someone to murder their own friend because that friend disagrees with you is not evil?

What about the one where you can devour a god's spirit to take its power for yourself?

What about the one where you electrocute a slave whenever she talks to you?



I'm not sure which choice you are talking about with the friend killing the friend.

In Jade Empire, you devour the god's power and work to use it for yourself. Nothing about that choice is inherently evil. If you then used that power to do selfish things, then those things could be argued to be evil (or, at the least, grossly irresponsible). But the act itself, seizing the power from the Water God, is simply obtaining power, arguably to use it in a manner less cruel than the destruction of the land that the gods had planned. I'm not sure how that is evil.

Torturing a slave is, arguably, pretty evil. As is randomly murder knifing people for no reason. I was speaking, however, on the more larger scale choices rather than the smaller ones. 

#149
Xilizhra

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Precisely. You thought it a good enough ending. Many other didn't. There isn't an option gamers can easily point out as the best one. Is that really something you'll fight against? No one is asking that they force players to be evil, but that they let us choose what is right and what isn't on our own.

All right... but in that case, design choices that let certain demographics of players feel that they can pull everything off, which being forced to choose between Dalish and mages wouldn't do.

#150
Steelcan

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

the devouring a god one is tempting....

I don't think I've ever done that in a Bioware game, but it was pretty fun in God of War.

God of War teaches us many things, like what the insides of a cyclop's digestive tract looks like

Between meshing and textures, the tract probably got more effort put into it than Tali's face.

Dev#1: "Hey we should have revealed Tali's face for the players who romanced her and stuck with her, some pay off ya know?"

Dev#2: "The game doesn't ship for another two hours!  We still have time!"

Dev#1: "Let's stick in this human model as a place holder until we can get a real one out"

Dev#2: "Wait that totoally works, just a few tweaks.... et voila!"

[citation needed]