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[dduane o]

I"m curious and I haven't seen this topic yet so I'll ask.  The Dragon Age franchise has been known to be rated mature by ESBRG (or something) and PEGI 17, but what will define this game to have a mature rating? Since it feels like it's going to follow its predecessor's lead.

Will it be boobies, sexual stufff?
will it be gore, blood all around, and body parts flying? how in depth? I haven't seen much of this on the gameplay
Will it be the worldly problems that can relate to our world?
Or anything else?

I would like to see a reason what would make this game a mature kind of game and not just a rated mature but a rated T gameplay. so any thoughts?

aries1001 wrote...

Please note that is it PEGI 18 as the european game rating system doesn't operate with a rating of 17+ (Mature). But with PEGI 18 and PEGI 16. (and PEGI 3, 7 and 12). Please also note that mostly the PEGI system will allow the show of partial nudity if it is presented in a context where it is natural. (just information here). Also, Germany has its own rating system, called the USK. Other countries have other rating systems, both for games and for movies.

As for what will make DA: Inquisiton a mature game, I really don't think adding boobies and other sexual stuff in the game will make it more mature; adolescent maybe, but certainly not mature. DA: Origins is labeled as aMature game (or in Europe mostly, PEGI 18), not mainly for its sexual stuff, but for the way it presents its themes, topics and subjects. Would a 12 year be able to understand the complexity of say the choice in the quest/mission where you have to choice between killing an innocent woman (a mother) or killing demon/child (as I remember it). I think not.

Also, DA: Origins is a very political game, most notable in the form of the Landsmeet. But if you're playing a mage elf and have Wynne in your party she has some really interesting thing to say about some people's view on elves, among other things that dismissal of elves etc. usually comes for fear etc. (as always, this is just information) I, for one, hope to see Bioware using the same way of making the game mature.

As for for why ratings are useful:

Let me just mention the quest: A paragon of her kind; even I got scared.(and I'm well over 45 ) Not to mention this: Would a 12 or 15 year old boy or girl understand this;.would or could they possibly comprehend that the darkspawn makes new darkspawn by forcing females of all races underground turning them into birth machines. Could or wouldn't there be a risk that the 12 or 15 year old boy or girl came to think of their own mothers; I suggest to you, yes certain this could happen. And such is the nature of the ratings for both games and movies. They are there to protect our children from what they might no be old enough to understand* e.g. that something which happens in a game (or in a movie) is indeed fictional i.e. happening in an imaginary world.
(that Bioware or the movie's director has made up). * And by understand have the cognitive facilities to recognize that this part or this part or the whole game or movie takes place in world that is entirely fictional.

edit:
spelling

thank you so much for clarifying about DA: O contents and the ESRB and PEGI ratings.  Yes, I see that the themes are more important than the sexual stuff (mind you i don't mind seeing sexual stuff though).


From what Allan Schumacher said about watching RoboCop and Friday the 13th, he was pointing out that parental supervision is important to these mature stuff.  We should know though that whatever ratings a game is, juvenile-adolescence will still try to play these kinds of games.  It will be a safe bet that a 13 year old is being a gangster by now playing GTA: 5 (I'm not playing that since that game's not my teapot eventhough I'm already way past the mature rating).  This might cause media outbreak how ridiculous the game is or why the game's even allowed.  I see this as an artistic barrier in which artistic talents, like BIoware, are being barred to show what the real potential this game is trying to convey through teams.

So my next questions are:

Once the game is release should there be an extra precaution or caveat that should be put up before the game starts that the game is for mature audience only and if they agree, they are agreeing that they are mature audience and can't file complaints if the player is actually just a teenager and younger?  

Would this ward off media attention effectively?

Is BioWare actually intimidated on what the media say that affects their writing process?


Note: I'm not putting this thread as a flare war but to just gain honest feedback and knowledge from the community.  I just want to know if this game will be awesome because it is what the game creators want it meant to be and not because it was shaped by media opinions due to their reaction towards mature nudity/violence/graphic/theme eventhough it is in context.

Modifié par dduane o, 20 septembre 2013 - 06:46 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I was hoping for an introspective analysis to what it means to have genuine friendship in the face of adversity while overcoming betrayal from a loved one.

Or would such a thing not really be "mature?" <_<

[Allan Schumacher]

Yes, it's mature. No, it wouldn't be rated as such. Mature in the sense of complexity and depth isn't the same as mature in the sense of ratings. As Ninja Stan pointed out, ratings are more or less arbitrarily handed out on the basis of set criteria.

I don't know if I'd say that they are arbitrarily handed out.

As a general question to people: do you know why "mature content" gets rated as "mature?"

[Allan Schumacher]

Boobies and swearing. Photo realistic mass slaughter gets you a teen as far as I can tell.

Since my question wasn't clear:

Specifically, this content is rated as "mature" (and not just in video games) because of the expectation/requirement of the viewer to understand that what they are seeing is artificial and whether or not it will continue affecting them after consuming the media. No, this doesn't mean that children are entirely incapable of addressing this. But that's up to the parent's discretion. A movie is rated R and with that comes the term: "Viewer discretion is advised." In other words, imagery and content may be inappropriate for your child... use your own discretion as to whether or not that is true.

I watched Robocop when I was 6 (thanks older brother). It didn't bother me. But Friday the 13th movies gave me nightmares, so my parents wouldn't let me watch them until I was older. One of my best friends wasn't allowed to watch the A-Team. Not because it was violent (no one died), but because it was unrealistically non-violent. His parents didn't want him watching a TV show where a lot of gunfire happened that ultimately resulted in no genuine consequences happening.

You are free to agree/disagree to your hearts content as to whether or not this reasoning makes sense, but suggesting that a movie like Total Recall is more "mature" than the film adaptation of To Kill a Mockingbird is not


What this thread DOES do, however, is point out that people have an over-fixation with the word usage used for games classification. That a game is rated "Mature" has little to do with whether or not the content itself is actually mature. More often than not, it is done in a very immature way. Further, a ton of mature depictions of content won't get rated M for mature (although maybe it still should, since a younger person is probably less equipped to really understand the meaning in such words).


In fact, often I find the specific request for how the game *must* have nudity/graphic violence in order to be mature to not really be a mature request. It's "mature" because a mature person is considered to have the cognitive reasoning to understand that what they are consuming is in fact fictional.

I don't need to see Andy Dufresne actually get raped in Shawshank Redemption to feel it's a more mature movie than Pulp Fiction (a movie which does show a man getting raped). And this doesn't mean I don't also enjoy Pulp Fiction. I consider it a very entertaining movie.

And yet nothing is shown. Did Fox scare them or something? Nudity can be incorporated well, avoiding it because you might ****** off the media is irritating.

I am seriously considering suggesting a policy that any thread that includes the idea that we don't do nudity because we're afraid of Fox News grounds for an instant thread closure.


EDIT: I didn't mean to actually close the thread (although I am thinking about it....)

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 20 septembre 2013 - 04:49 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Well, I did play GTA Vice City when I was 8 and San Andreas when I was 10. Didn't kill anybody yet.

Mature is an interesting concept.

I would *really* prefer to not go down this tangent.

At no point did I (or as far as I can tell, anyone else) indicate that an "immature" person consuming content like this would lead one to start killing people. It's a non sequitur and I consider it off topic for this discussion.

[Allan Schumacher]

A person that makes 18 years don't magically turns mature.

Nor does it suddenly make them equipped to vote or drink alcohol responsibly.

That's not the point, though. Why do you think the age, 18, was chosen?

[Allan Schumacher]

JCAP wrote...


I assume it's the average age where most people get more "responsible" (can't find the proper word).

But, it's average, some take more time than others. My cousin is 17 but he is like a 12 old kid.

And it also depends on the culture, here in Portugal you can drive once you are 18, in USA you can drive if you are 16.

It's also closely rated with the average (and yes, I understand that people differ on this across the board, so picking any one age won't work for everyone) progression of cognitive development and increased capability for critical thinking.  And yes, within at least my country, with that comes greater expectation of responsibility.


It's actually interesting to do experiments to see this (albeit it's easier with younger children).  Take most 6 year olds and two identical glasses of water.  They will recognize that they both have the same amount of water.  Literally pour one of the glasses into a taller glass right in front of their eyes, and a majority of them will say that the taller glass has more water.  Do it with 7 year olds, and the ability to understand that it's still the same water is now more developed.

(I may have the precise ages wrong, but I remember watching a demonstration of this as part of my schooling and it was around that age range, and it was only a single year difference).

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 20 septembre 2013 - 06:42 .

[Allan Schumacher]

EDIT: Changed my post since the quoted post has changed, though I kept the aside since this general idea that we're cowing in fear still permeates far more than it really should.


An interesting read for people: http://pattonoswalt....age=spew&id=167

To summarize, the conclusion that this comedian made was an epiphany that people have a predisposition to fill in the blanks with a narrative that reinforces their own perspectives and experiences of the way reality must be. As such, comedians all steal jokes and comedians love hecklers, even though comedians disagree with both points. The author then concluded that he realized he realized he was doing the same thing himself for other topics, despite hating it when people did it for the first two topics.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 20 septembre 2013 - 06:58 .

[Allan Schumacher]

On some level it's a topic that comes up a lot. If we can somewhat consolidate it and talk a bit more about how ratings are applied, what it means by "mature" content and so forth, it could be a benefit.

[Allan Schumacher]

18 is completely arbitrary, and has nothing to do with actual maturity, which is mental, not necessarily physical. It's a general age where society only hopes the individual is mature, not a hard line that means maturity once crossed.

If this is the case, then it isn't really arbitrary. There is a reason for picking the age, even if we may not all agree on the reasons being valid.

No one here suggested that 18 is the age on where a hardline on maturity has been crossed and I think most agree that it'd be foolish to suggest that such an age could exist.

[Allan Schumacher]

simplistic answers tend to anger the developers.

This isn't necessarily true at all. Simple answers are often just straight forward answers that don't get get obfuscated. Being concise can be a real asset. I know this as someone that is prone to writing walls of text.


Regardless, this is going off topic and isn't really relevant (I felt the earlier comments were mostly tongue in cheek).

[Allan Schumacher]

Megakoresh, I am getting the impression that you equate "mature" simply with "something you enjoy."

A mature game simply makes no assumptions about what the player wants or
needs and is not afraid to do ANYTHING as long as it helps the context.

How do you differentiate between a mature game, and a game that simply has poor design and instruction?

It would likely not be so linear in comparison to previous ME games, it
would have had proper exploration and side missions, it would not have
had so much auto-dialogue and it would not have had "space-magic" as an
undeniably forced way to appear "mature" in the end by doing some
contrived nonsense (unexpected=!mature).

To be frank, I feel this has absolutely nothing to do with maturity.  The impression I get from this is that a non-linear game is an innately more mature game.  I do not understand your definition of maturity.  I fundamentally disagree with the notion that something that is unexpected cannot be mature.  Though I think you may have just chosen your words in a less clear way.  If you're referring to things like plot twists, then I'd agree.  But your parenthetical remark obfuscates that point by being a blanket statement.

Mature games feel relatable. They don't feel contrived. Now I am still
more comfortable playing DAO than Witcher 2, despite liking W2 way more,
but that's because of that relation. Witcher 2 is dark and
uncomfortable game, but because it feels smooth, nothing feels like it's
been on paper before being in the game, that "hollywood stage feel"
isn't there, I feel more uncomfortable playing that game since I can
really relate to what's happening. It's not been simplified and smoothed
out to highlight the apex of the script and hide all the "boring life
details".

Mature games are "relatable."  This statement confuses me.  What do you mean by relatable.  Wouldn't relatability be a rather unique, personal experience?

If Origins was as dark and gritty I would not feel as uncomfortable
playing it. In fact when I make evil decisions and watch sad scenes and
whatever, none resonate as much as even side-quest decisions in W2 do.
Because I am ALWAYS able to "see the script". I can always see it like
it's on a stage. It's a very difficult thing to actually hide in your
game, but it ultimately boils down to one thing:

Make your game
how you wanna make it. Make your world how it's supposed to function.
Make your dialogue how it would happen in real life. And let players
figure it out. Never at any point think that "This detail makes it too
complicated" or "This the player may not have noticed". Seriously. You
know in Dead Space 3 when we installed some device onto a ship as part
of the mission, the character said "Wait, I am not getting anything...
Ah, no, it works fine." Very minor detail there, but look how rarely
it's used. In 99% of other games she would either say "Damn, doesn't
work" or "Great! It works!". But that's not how it functions in real
life, is it. That's what being " on a stage" is about.

See, I am always able to "see the script" for The Witcher 2.  Perhaps I am just so mature that the game cannot pull a fast one on me?

You know when I first played Witcher 2 I thought half the dialogue was
translated by people who can't speak English. It was when i played in
the 3rd time and read all the Character bios and journal that I realized
that those nonsensical lines are relating to something which the player
is just expected to know, if it was happening in real life. THAT is
mature. Sex and ****** isn't.

Again, how is that "mature?"  You have convinced me that you enjoy The Witcher 2.  I'm having a hard time convincing myself that it's because you find it mature, or if you apply the term to it simply because it's a positive term and the game has left a strong, positive impression on  you.


On some level I think we may have to agree to disagree, because for me a mature piece of entertainment is one that makes me reflect on the topic and themes provided.  To literally make me think "what does that mean?"  Not in a "I don't understand what is going on" sort of way, but in a critical analysis of what I have experienced sort of way.


Pulp Fiction is very smart and doesn't hold a person's hand at all, and it is very entertaining.  But I would still consider Shawshank Redemption to be more mature.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 21 septembre 2013 - 04:41 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I don't agree, Allan. If we're talking about a rating classification then most of what is considered 'mature' comes down to the balance of what's explorative and what's exploitative.

I wasn't talking about a rating classification anymore, but just what it means for content to be "mature." A lot of forms of entertainment are rated mature not because the content contained within is considered mature. A lot of movies that I feel have mature content are not rated R/M.

That's also why The Shawshank Redemption is less of a 'mature' movie than Pulp Fiction (a movie I also like).

Maybe whether or not content is mature is in fact a personal thing, then?

I consider Pulp Fiction to be a form of escapist entertainment (barring maybe the Tarantino soliloquy) . I consider Shawshank Redemption to be an example of interpretive storytelling. Both are high quality, entertaining movies, however.


Note that I am referring to the entirety of the movie. I picked those two simply because both depict scenes of male rape.

If you wanted to take video games, there's pretty much nothing that I would consider to be a more mature narrative (in large part because of the sheer quality of its writing) than Planescape: Torment.

But then, we'd have to try to define what the term "mature" means. And as you alluded to, it may be somewhat personal.