230 réponses à ce sujet

[Dutchess]

PinkysPain wrote...

renjility wrote...
surely you've seej the topics on "maturity" before here. they divolve into people praising TW for boobs

Witcher 2's nude scenes do deserve praise, probably the most well executed yet (not that Mass Effect was bad). Of course they have the advantage of animating only a few characters, with the menagerie available in Dragon Age games that would take many times more effort.

Wait, why does this quote have my name on it? I didn't say that.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Why is it so important anyway? I've seen "mature movies" that were complete and utter **** and children's films and even games that told a deeper, more enjoyable story with more intelligence behind it.

**** the ratings, **** the pandering to people whio cry for more boobies and dick pics in their game cause it'll push the envelope. Make a good story, have great writing, and the execute it well. It'll turn out hundreds better than your dime a dozen action film with a nudity scene will ever be.

[Dutchess]

Mr.House wrote...
That bolded can be justified by you simply don't trust he is not sick, you don't know he is healthy or does not have the blight and thus could go about infecting other people. A Warden kicking him in lava is making sure no one get's sick, it's not pointless. 

It's been a while since I played Awakening, but what kind of contagious disease could he have had? Do ghouls spread the Taint?

Jaulen wrote...

My dalish elf happily stabbed Genitivi in the back....stupid Andratsians and humans keeping my people down.
Also killed Wynne and Leliana that game.....

Killed the wounded solider too.....felt satisfying...stupid shemlen, probably infected with the taint.
And the prisoner in the cage.....cant trust the shemlen, plus why should i care about him?
Threatened the Chantry mother to get Sten....was sad it didn't come to blows, and I couldn't kill her for the key.
Killed the arrogant noble in the dungeon, he seemed like an evil shem that would hurt my people, and didn't seem trustworthy.
Stabbed the templar, crazy shem, could be danegrous.

Brought the wounded Dalish back to camp, after robbing him of course, and then lied to him about not finding anything on him.

Man, that was a fun playthrough.


(Hey, what can I say, i was having a bad week at work.....)

Nothing wrong with chosing all those insane options. I have as well. But my point is that the motivation to stab those people really isn't that strong, and that I can't recall similar butchery being present in either of The Witcher games (except for siding with the Order in TW1 maybe *shudder*). 

[PinkysPain]

renjility wrote...
Wait, why does this quote have my name on it? I didn't say that.

Oops, bad editing I'll correct it.

[Dutchess]

PinkysPain wrote...

renjility wrote...
Wait, why does this quote have my name on it? I didn't say that.

Oops, bad editing I'll correct it.

Haha, that's okay. I was already being embarrassed by the typo "seej" before I realized that I actually had not written that.

[Cheylus]

Maturity is the not complex, dark or "adult" subjects, it's the way something or someone deals with complex things. That's why defining maturity by saying "boobs & blood" looks very immature to me (maybe because "maturity" has absolutely NOTHING to do with sex and violence in my language).

[Allan Schumacher]

Boobies and swearing. Photo realistic mass slaughter gets you a teen as far as I can tell.

Since my question wasn't clear:

Specifically, this content is rated as "mature" (and not just in video games) because of the expectation/requirement of the viewer to understand that what they are seeing is artificial and whether or not it will continue affecting them after consuming the media. No, this doesn't mean that children are entirely incapable of addressing this. But that's up to the parent's discretion. A movie is rated R and with that comes the term: "Viewer discretion is advised." In other words, imagery and content may be inappropriate for your child... use your own discretion as to whether or not that is true.

I watched Robocop when I was 6 (thanks older brother). It didn't bother me. But Friday the 13th movies gave me nightmares, so my parents wouldn't let me watch them until I was older. One of my best friends wasn't allowed to watch the A-Team. Not because it was violent (no one died), but because it was unrealistically non-violent. His parents didn't want him watching a TV show where a lot of gunfire happened that ultimately resulted in no genuine consequences happening.

You are free to agree/disagree to your hearts content as to whether or not this reasoning makes sense, but suggesting that a movie like Total Recall is more "mature" than the film adaptation of To Kill a Mockingbird is not


What this thread DOES do, however, is point out that people have an over-fixation with the word usage used for games classification. That a game is rated "Mature" has little to do with whether or not the content itself is actually mature. More often than not, it is done in a very immature way. Further, a ton of mature depictions of content won't get rated M for mature (although maybe it still should, since a younger person is probably less equipped to really understand the meaning in such words).


In fact, often I find the specific request for how the game *must* have nudity/graphic violence in order to be mature to not really be a mature request. It's "mature" because a mature person is considered to have the cognitive reasoning to understand that what they are consuming is in fact fictional.

I don't need to see Andy Dufresne actually get raped in Shawshank Redemption to feel it's a more mature movie than Pulp Fiction (a movie which does show a man getting raped). And this doesn't mean I don't also enjoy Pulp Fiction. I consider it a very entertaining movie.

And yet nothing is shown. Did Fox scare them or something? Nudity can be incorporated well, avoiding it because you might ****** off the media is irritating.

I am seriously considering suggesting a policy that any thread that includes the idea that we don't do nudity because we're afraid of Fox News grounds for an instant thread closure.


EDIT: I didn't mean to actually close the thread (although I am thinking about it....)

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 20 septembre 2013 - 04:49 .

[MKDAWUSS]

There's a big difference between mature themes and mature content...

[Neon Rising Winter]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

There's a big difference between mature themes and mature content...

For example any game which took a completely immature approach to graphic sex and violence would almost certainly contain mature content?

Mature is one of those poor words you run across in English that is having to hold up multiple meanings, possibly mutually exlusive ones.

[In Exile]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I watched Robocop when I was 6 (thanks older brother). It didn't bother me. But Friday the 13th movies gave me nightmares, so my parents wouldn't let me watch them until I was older. One of my best friends wasn't allowed to watch the A-Team. Not because it was violent (no one died), but because it was unrealistically non-violent. His parents didn't want him watching a TV show where a lot of gunfire happened that ultimately resulted in no genuine consequences happening.

I accidentally saw Event Horizon as a (very) young kid, and stumbled across a few episodes of the Outer Limits. Those things freaked me out so badly I had nightmares about it for years. 

[JCAP]

Well, I did play GTA Vice City when I was 8 and San Andreas when I was 10. Didn't kill anybody yet.

Mature is an interesting concept.

[wolfsite]

For a good example of mature themes in a game rated E for Everyone I'd say play The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.

There are a lot of side missions that deal with death, lost loved ones, bullying, Being faithful to those around you even if it meant you would die.  The first time I played this game I was quite surprised it got an E becuase the content was rather mature for a young child to fully understand (Anju and Kafei's side quest in particular can be very emotional if you follow it both completing and failing)

[Allan Schumacher]

Well, I did play GTA Vice City when I was 8 and San Andreas when I was 10. Didn't kill anybody yet.

Mature is an interesting concept.

I would *really* prefer to not go down this tangent.

At no point did I (or as far as I can tell, anyone else) indicate that an "immature" person consuming content like this would lead one to start killing people. It's a non sequitur and I consider it off topic for this discussion.

[aries1001]

Please note that is it PEGI 18 as the european game rating system doesn't operate with a rating of 17+ (Mature). But with PEGI 18 and PEGI 16. (and PEGI 3, 7 and 12). Please also note that mostly the PEGI system will allow the show of partial nudity if it is presented in a context where it is natural. (just information here). Also, Germany has its own rating system, called the USK. Other countries have other rating systems, both for games and for movies.

As for what will make DA: Inquisiton a mature game, I really don't think adding boobies and other sexual stuff in the game will make it more mature; adolescent maybe, but certainly not mature. DA: Origins is labeled as aMature game (or in Europe mostly, PEGI 18), not mainly for its sexual stuff, but for the way it presents its themes, topics and subjects. Would a 12 year be able to understand the complexity of say the choice in the quest/mission where you have to choice between killing an innocent woman (a mother) or killing demon/child (as I remember it). I think not.

Also, DA: Origins is a very political game, most notable in the form of the Landsmeet. But if you're playing a mage elf and have Wynne in your party she has some really interesting thing to say about some people's view on elves, among other things that dismissal of elves etc. usually comes for fear etc. (as always, this is just information) I, for one, hope to see Bioware using the same way of making the game mature.

As for for why ratings are useful:

Let me just mention the quest: A paragon of her kind; even I got scared.(and I'm well over 45 ) Not to mention this: Would a 12 or 15 year old boy or girl understand this;.would or could they possibly comprehend that the darkspawn makes new darkspawn by forcing females of all races underground turning them into birth machines. Could or wouldn't there be a risk that the 12 or 15 year old boy or girl came to think of their own mothers; I suggest to you, yes certain this could happen. And such is the nature of the ratings for both games and movies. They are there to protect our children from what they might no be old enough to understand* e.g. that something which happens in a game (or in a movie) is indeed fictional i.e. happening in an imaginary world.
(that Bioware or the movie's director has made up). * And by understand have the cognitive facilities to recognize that this part or this part or the whole game or movie takes place in world that is entirely fictional.

edit:
spelling

Modifié par aries1001, 20 septembre 2013 - 05:49 .

[JCAP]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well, I did play GTA Vice City when I was 8 and San Andreas when I was 10. Didn't kill anybody yet.

Mature is an interesting concept.

I would *really* prefer to not go down this tangent.

At no point did I (or as far as I can tell, anyone else) indicate that an "immature" person consuming content like this would lead one to start killing people. It's a non sequitur and I consider it off topic for this discussion.

It was a little off topic, sorry about that (just saw a reportage here on tv about GTA V, and they said the usual [kids playing this are going to destroy the world]) (not saying kids should play this game, just saying parents should be the ones to decide if they can play it or not)


My point is basically, mature can't be defined. I played gta when I was young and played game with sex scenes (or that implied) when I was 14-15. And I have normal social life.

A person that makes 18 years don't magically turns mature.


Edit

Side note: Games teached me with 2 things - English and being more open minded.

Modifié par JCAP, 20 septembre 2013 - 06:18 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

Heh, I always view the ESBR as more of a "potentially offensive" rating than a maturity one.
On topic: I assume it'll get the 17+ rating for more than one reason if the previous games are any indication.

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 20 septembre 2013 - 06:16 .

[Allan Schumacher]

A person that makes 18 years don't magically turns mature.

Nor does it suddenly make them equipped to vote or drink alcohol responsibly.

That's not the point, though. Why do you think the age, 18, was chosen?

[Kidd]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Since my question wasn't clear:

Specifically, this content is rated as "mature" (and not just in video games) because of the expectation/requirement of the viewer to understand that what they are seeing is artificial and whether or not it will continue affecting them after consuming the media.

I'm saving this entire post for later use. Thanks for a terrific write-up of what I've tried to put into words so many times in the past! =)

[JCAP]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

A person that makes 18 years don't magically turns mature.

Nor does it suddenly make them equipped to vote or drink alcohol responsibly.

That's not the point, though. Why do you think the age, 18, was chosen?

I assume it's the average age where most people get more "responsible" (can't find the proper word).

But, it's average, some take more time than others. My cousin is 17 but he is like a 12 old kid.

And it also depends on the culture, here in Portugal you can drive once you are 18, in USA you can drive if you are 16.

Modifié par JCAP, 20 septembre 2013 - 06:26 .

[dduane o]

aries1001 wrote...

Please note that is it PEGI 18 as the european game rating system doesn't operate with a rating of 17+ (Mature). But with PEGI 18 and PEGI 16. (and PEGI 3, 7 and 12). Please also note that mostly the PEGI system will allow the show of partial nudity if it is presented in a context where it is natural. (just information here). Also, Germany has its own rating system, called the USK. Other countries have other rating systems, both for games and for movies.

As for what will make DA: Inquisiton a mature game, I really don't think adding boobies and other sexual stuff in the game will make it more mature; adolescent maybe, but certainly not mature. DA: Origins is labeled as aMature game (or in Europe mostly, PEGI 18), not mainly for its sexual stuff, but for the way it presents its themes, topics and subjects. Would a 12 year be able to understand the complexity of say the choice in the quest/mission where you have to choice between killing an innocent woman (a mother) or killing demon/child (as I remember it). I think not.

Also, DA: Origins is a very political game, most notable in the form of the Landsmeet. But if you're playing a mage elf and have Wynne in your party she has some really interesting thing to say about some people's view on elves, among other things that dismissal of elves etc. usually comes for fear etc. (as always, this is just information) I, for one, hope to see Bioware using the same way of making the game mature.

As for for why ratings are useful:

Let me just mention the quest: A paragon of her kind; even I got scared.(and I'm well over 45 ) Not to mention this: Would a 12 or 15 year old boy or girl understand this;.would or could they possibly comprehend that the darkspawn makes new darkspawn by forcing females of all races underground turning them into birth machines. Could or wouldn't there be a risk that the 12 or 15 year old boy or girl came to think of their own mothers; I suggest to you, yes certain this could happen. And such is the nature of the ratings for both games and movies. They are there to protect our children from what they might no be old enough to understand* e.g. that something which happens in a game (or in a movie) is indeed fictional i.e. happening in an imaginary world.
(that Bioware or the movie's director has made up). * And by understand have the cognitive facilities to recognize that this part or this part or the whole game or movie takes place in world that is entirely fictional.

edit:
spelling

thank you so much for clarifying about DA: O contents and the ESRB and PEGI ratings.  Yes, I see that the themes are more important than the sexual stuff (mind you i don't mind seeing sexual stuff though).


From what Allan Schumacher said about watching RoboCop and Friday the 13th, he was pointing out that parental supervision is important to these mature stuff.  We should know though that whatever ratings a game is, juvenile-adolescence will still try to play these kinds of games.  It will be a safe bet that a 13 year old is being a gangster by now playing GTA: 5 (I'm not playing that since that game's not my teapot eventhough I'm already way past the mature rating).  This might cause media outbreak how ridiculous the game is or why the game's even allowed.  I see this as an artistic barrier in which artistic talents, like BIoware, are being barred to show what the real potential this game is trying to convey through teams.

So my next queastion is:

Once the game is release should there be an extra precaution or caveat that should be put up before the game starts that the game is for mature audience only and if they agree, they are agreeing that they are mature audience and can't file complaints if the player is actually just a teenager and younger?  

Would this ward off media attention effectively?

Is BioWare actually intimidated on what the media say that affects their writing process?


Note: I'm not putting this thread as a flare war but to just gain honest feedback and knowledge from the community.  I just want to know if this game will be awesome because it is what the game creators want it meant to be and not because it was shaped by media opinions due to their reaction towards mature nudity/violence/graphic/theme eventhough it is in context.

[Allan Schumacher]

JCAP wrote...


I assume it's the average age where most people get more "responsible" (can't find the proper word).

But, it's average, some take more time than others. My cousin is 17 but he is like a 12 old kid.

And it also depends on the culture, here in Portugal you can drive once you are 18, in USA you can drive if you are 16.

It's also closely rated with the average (and yes, I understand that people differ on this across the board, so picking any one age won't work for everyone) progression of cognitive development and increased capability for critical thinking.  And yes, within at least my country, with that comes greater expectation of responsibility.


It's actually interesting to do experiments to see this (albeit it's easier with younger children).  Take most 6 year olds and two identical glasses of water.  They will recognize that they both have the same amount of water.  Literally pour one of the glasses into a taller glass right in front of their eyes, and a majority of them will say that the taller glass has more water.  Do it with 7 year olds, and the ability to understand that it's still the same water is now more developed.

(I may have the precise ages wrong, but I remember watching a demonstration of this as part of my schooling and it was around that age range, and it was only a single year difference).

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 20 septembre 2013 - 06:42 .

[MissOuJ]

Narrow Margin wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

There's a big difference between mature themes and mature content...

For example any game which took a completely immature approach to graphic sex and violence would almost certainly contain mature content?

Mature is one of those poor words you run across in English that is having to hold up multiple meanings, possibly mutually exlusive ones.

That's an excellent point. We can have mature themes or mature content, even "Mature" rating - all of which have more or less different meanings. And then there's another mine-field term: "adult", which has more or less similar problems.

In my opinion, it comes down to how the game / movie / tv-series / book / piece of media handles the themes in question. For example: I had the misfortune of watching Pride and Glory shortly after it came out. It handles a lot of "mature" or "adult" themes from corruption to violence to racism to cancer - and it handles them more or less horribly. The whole movie is more or less an angry macho showdown where almost every male charater spews expletives like 14-year-olds who have just learned how to swear. I don't mind adult language, but when a movie drops an f-bomb on average twice per minute (and no, that's not an exaggeration - I'm actually rounding down) it looses its impact and just becomes boring.

The same could be said about nudity and sex and even violence: use it effectively, and it will work. Use it excessively or badly, and you're just going to ruin the whole thing. And I say this as a big fan of the Spartacus series, which is "mature themes / content" bonanza -  admittedly, it has some problems with sensationalist violence and it uses Rape As Drama -trope (not too much and not all that badly, in my opinion, but your mileage may vary), but then again most of the time the point is to show how very messed up the whole system was and how sick we people have been historically (and maybe still are?). It's not for everyone, and definitely not for kids or even teens, but then again I don't think that not being able to stomach it means a person isn't "adult" enough to deal with "mature" content. But personally I think it is a series that uses "mature" / "adult" tropes well, most of the time.

Then again who says what is "good" and what is "bad" use? Usually extremes are easy to tell apart, but almost all the rest in between is usually just a matter of opinion. Then again when said opinion is often influenced by the society we live in, stuff like "gender", "race" and "sexual orientation" stands out since not everyone's point of view is equally valued / respected / treated as the norm.

TL;DR: I should probably go watch some more Spartacus.