230 réponses à ce sujet

[schalafi]

Star fury wrote...

I'd say after Fawx News "scandal" Bioware became way too cautious about mature content in it's games. Witcher series handles mature stuff much much better.

I hope Bioware will concentrate on making their game pleasing to their prospective players. Personally, I am tired of clothed sex scenes, being passed off as Mature. If we're going to have an M rated game, then stop making  sex scenes for children.  Sex scenes can be done without full nudity... there are many ways they can be portrayed, but scenes with characters fully clothed, down to boots, knives, water bottles, etc, (specifically Anders) is going too far in the other direction. There has to be some happy medium.

Modifié par schalafi, 20 septembre 2013 - 06:53 .

[Allan Schumacher]

EDIT: Changed my post since the quoted post has changed, though I kept the aside since this general idea that we're cowing in fear still permeates far more than it really should.


An interesting read for people: http://pattonoswalt....age=spew&id=167

To summarize, the conclusion that this comedian made was an epiphany that people have a predisposition to fill in the blanks with a narrative that reinforces their own perspectives and experiences of the way reality must be. As such, comedians all steal jokes and comedians love hecklers, even though comedians disagree with both points. The author then concluded that he realized he realized he was doing the same thing himself for other topics, despite hating it when people did it for the first two topics.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 20 septembre 2013 - 06:58 .

[Sylvianus]

MissOuJ wrote...

The same could be said about nudity and sex and even violence: use it effectively, and it will work. Use it excessively or badly, and you're just going to ruin the whole thing. And I say this as a big fan of the Spartacus series, which is "mature themes / content" bonanza -  admittedly, it has some problems with sensationalist violence and it uses Rape As Drama -trope (not too much and not all that badly, in my opinion, but your mileage may vary), but then again most of the time the point is to show how very messed up the whole system was and how sick we people have been historically (and maybe still are?). It's not for everyone, and definitely not for kids or even teens, but then again I don't think that not being able to stomach it means a person isn't "adult" enough to deal with "mature" content. But personally I think it is a series that uses "mature" / "adult" tropes well, most of the time.

Then again who says what is "good" and what is "bad" use? Usually extremes are easy to tell apart, but almost all the rest in between is usually just a matter of opinion. Then again when said opinion is often influenced by the society we live in, stuff like "gender", "race" and "sexual orientation" stands out since not everyone's point of view is equally valued / respected / treated as the norm.

TL;DR: I should probably go watch some more Spartacus.

Exactly what I think. I agree totally.

Loved Spartacus ( season one and prequel ) <3 and I'm glad you are a big fan too. ( The tudors is also a good historical serie tv with sex scenes. A very mature story with drama )

My sister like many people told the first time, : " no, If I want to go watch some porn series tv, I'll visit some porn sites. " T__T I said stop being stupid and just try the damn serie before making any judgment... She loved the serie ( season 1 ) and she cried many times... Still a bit horrified by scenes of violence in Spartacus, but at least, she was satisfied a lot with the story and she changed her mind.

I don't like when sex is always unecessary, excessive, useless, or a pretext coming from nowhere, weakening seriously the story and the characters for example. The same for violence. When it becomes just too much. Like for example in Strike back. ( serie tv ) I find that this isn't serious anymore because of the reasons you gave and I stopped watching the serie. 

I felt like it was immature with mature content.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 20 septembre 2013 - 07:30 .

[MissOuJ]

Sylvianus wrote...
Loved Spartacus ( season one and prequel ) <3 and I'm glad you are a big fan too. ( The tudors is also a good historical serie tv with sex scenes. A very mature story with drama )

My sister like many people told the first time, : " no, If I want to go watch some porn series tv, I'll visit some porn sites. " T__T I said stop being stupid and just try the damn serie before making any judgment... She loved the serie ( season 1 ) and she cried many times... Still a bit horrified by scenes of violence in Spartacus, but at least, she was satisfied a lot with the story and she changed her mind.

I don't like when sex is always unecessary, excessive, bad, useless, or a pretext coming from nowhere, weakening seriously the story for example. When it becomes just too much. Like for example in Strike back. ( serie tv ) I find that this isn't serious anymore because of the reasons you gave and I stopped watching the serie.

I felt like it was immature with mature content.

Spartacus is just amazing! The intrique, the plotting, the characters, the motivations, the amazing script and dialogue, the wonderfully evil villains who actually considered themselves the good guys: the first season is a bit like watching V build that agazing row of dominoes in V for Vendetta and then watching the last episode is just like waiting for V to topple that first one and waiting to see the whole thing unravel. Beautiful.

I have to say that I understand your sister's reservations about the series, since sex is most often used in tv and films for titillation for the male viewers, which is just obvious and boring (and slightly awkward) from women's point of view at its best, and just plain offensive at its worst - and all of those make for a pretty bad viewing / gaming experience.

But yeah, Spartacus rules!

[Sylvianus]

MissOuJ wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
Loved Spartacus ( season one and prequel ) <3 and I'm glad you are a big fan too. ( The tudors is also a good historical serie tv with sex scenes. A very mature story with drama )

My sister like many people told the first time, : " no, If I want to go watch some porn series tv, I'll visit some porn sites. " T__T I said stop being stupid and just try the damn serie before making any judgment... She loved the serie ( season 1 ) and she cried many times... Still a bit horrified by scenes of violence in Spartacus, but at least, she was satisfied a lot with the story and she changed her mind.

I don't like when sex is always unecessary, excessive, bad, useless, or a pretext coming from nowhere, weakening seriously the story for example. When it becomes just too much. Like for example in Strike back. ( serie tv ) I find that this isn't serious anymore because of the reasons you gave and I stopped watching the serie.

I felt like it was immature with mature content.

Spartacus is just amazing! The intrique, the plotting, the characters, the motivations, the amazing script and dialogue, the wonderfully evil villains who actually considered themselves the good guys: the first season is a bit like watching V build that agazing row of dominoes in V for Vendetta and then watching the last episode is just like waiting for V to topple that first one and waiting to see the whole thing unravel. Beautiful.

I have to say that I understand your sister's reservations about the series, since sex is most often used in tv and films for titillation for the male viewers, which is just obvious and boring (and slightly awkward) from women's point of view at its best, and just plain offensive at its worst - and all of those make for a pretty bad viewing / gaming experience.

But yeah, Spartacus rules!

This is something that I do not understand. What wouldn't be considered as titillation for male viewers with sex scenes. Both the guy and the woman are naked most of time.

And, in Spartacus, you can't say that there aren't titillation for women.  Naked men, or half naked most of time, in all the episodes.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 20 septembre 2013 - 07:37 .

[Mahumia]

Thanks for the explanation Allan and Aries. I stand corrected in assuming that the ratings where just based on supervisial appearances (like violence, language, nudity) instead of deeper content.

I really love the political things and grey choices that came along with the games. And indeed, the broodmother part was really freaking me out  .

And although I jump the bandwagon in 'complaining' about the nudity (which I would hope to be in level with the other mature contents of the game: films/series can do it (see (aforementioned) Spartacus, Games of Thrones, True Blood, etc), so I feel it is a pity if games don't... for me, it takes away immersion), I can also understand that things are different on the other side of the fence.

I have the idea that somehow game developers are sooner getting rage for nudity content than film developers, due to fuming parents that the content is inappropriate for their 12 year old kid (small detail that there is that shiny 'M' rating and they are still buying it for their kids <_<). A colleague of mine refuses to let his 11 year old son play 'The Sims' because of the 'make kids' option (although I have explained a few times that there really is NOTHING to see)... But watching movies is no problem at all...

[JCAP]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

It's also closely rated with the average (and yes, I understand that people differ on this across the board, so picking any one age won't work for everyone) progression of cognitive development and increased capability for critical thinking.  And yes, within at least my country, with that comes greater expectation of responsibility.


It's actually interesting to do experiments to see this (albeit it's easier with younger children).  Take most 6 year olds and two identical glasses of water.  They will recognize that they both have the same amount of water.  Literally pour one of the glasses into a taller glass right in front of their eyes, and a majority of them will say that the taller glass has more water.  Do it with 7 year olds, and the ability to understand that it's still the same water is now more developed.

(I may have the precise ages wrong, but I remember watching a demonstration of this as part of my schooling and it was around that age range, and it was only a single year difference).

 My mother did that to me when I was little:P

[Sylvianus]

Mahumia wrote...
 (small detail that there is that shiny 'M' rating and they are still buying it for their kids <_<)

Personally, I suspect that most parents don't give a crap, don't pay attention or don't even know what the M rating means. You can still see guns on the box for example, ( knowing it could be a violent game ) but it doesn't indicate really the strong content into the game, like sex and all.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Sylvianus wrote...

Mahumia wrote...
 (small detail that there is that shiny 'M' rating and they are still buying it for their kids <_<)

Personally, I suspect that most parents don't give a crap, don't pay attention or don't even know what the M rating means. You can still see guns on the box for example, ( knowing it could be a violent game ) but it doesn't indicate really the strong content into the game, like sex and all.

Most of them don't care, until something goes wrong and they need a convenient scapegoat to blame their kid's recent criminal behavior on.
I recall some article about a mother who's drugdealing kid shot his fellow drugdealer - and it was all because he had played Manhunt (according to her at least). 

[MissOuJ]

Sylvianus wrote...

This is something that I do not understand. What wouldn't be considered as titillation for male viewers with sex scenes. Both the the guy and the woman are naked most of time.

Because it is written with male gaze in mind. The way the whole act is portrayed, how it's filmed, how the couple is arranged and what position they're in. For example, I have seen my fair share of sex scenes where the guy is either partially or completely clothed, whereas the woman is completely naked, and even when the man is naked the camera films around him so the viewers mostly see the woman - which usually means a lot of breasts and whole body pans. It's just... weird. And annoying when it becomes obvious that the whole seen is just one overlong game of "hide the sausage with a naked lady". Remember the Simpsons movie opening? Like that, but less funny. I'd guess straight guys would rather not watch half-a-minute long camera pans of chiselled and gorgeous Adonises that leave nothing to imagination, particularly when every time you're about to see some more intimate female curves there's a convenient "cut" or "fade to black".

And then there're the sounds. Nothing says "steamy / romantic sex scene" like going "oh wow, she's totally faking it" / "she doesn't look like she's enjoying it at all" in your head.

It's also a big "well, if you're watching, ladies, take note that we don't particularly care about you as a demographic!" sign from the showrunners, since if they really cared about us, they'd show us something that we would actually like to see. Which is not this.

Sylvianus wrote...

And, in Spartacus, you can't say that there aren't titillation for women. Naked men, or half naked most of time, in all the episodes. .

Exactly - Spartacus is mostly equal opportunity, and most of the time it's not even particularly vocal about it - it just is. It also uses stuff like nudity outside sex scenes as well, where it has a completely different motive: notice how only body slaves have proper clothing? Most of the slaves are either almost or completely naked, which signifies their status, or lack of one, to be more accurate: they lack protection, identity, freedom, pretty much everything. They're just bodies and tools for their masters, so why even bother caring about their dignity or comfort? Which again reinforces the central themes of the series: liberty, freedom and self-determination. A slave freed is a slave free to do with their body whatever they wish - what to wear, how to wear it, whether of not they want to be naked, who they want to have sex with.

Which again shows what makes in my opinion the series "mature" and "adult" in the more positive senses of the words: seeing multiple sides of the issue, and not shying away from it when it becomes uncomfortable - because I don't think anyone who watches Spartacus and sees all those naked slaves in the market being sold / punished says "wow that's hot" but rather "wow, that must be a really uncomfortable situation, to put it mildly".

And I guess this is what I'd really like to see from DA:I too, to get back to topic. Not showing sex is fine, showing sex is fine; nudity is fine, no nudity is fine - as long as it is in keeping with the central themes and reinforces them, in stead of being contradictory to them. Most of the time it's the context (both in-universe and in the real world) and coherence that make or break the "mature" or "adult" content.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 20 septembre 2013 - 08:38 .

[Sylvianus]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Mahumia wrote...
 (small detail that there is that shiny 'M' rating and they are still buying it for their kids <_<)

Personally, I suspect that most parents don't give a crap, don't pay attention or don't even know what the M rating means. You can still see guns on the box for example, ( knowing it could be a violent game ) but it doesn't indicate really the strong content into the game, like sex and all.

Most of them don't care, until something goes wrong and they need a convenient scapegoat to blame their kid's recent criminal behavior on.
I recall some article about a mother who's drugdealing kid shot his fellow drugdealer - and it was all because he had played Manhunt (according to her at least). 

That's very true. Also I love how in The United States,, there are people that blame video games, but do not think at all about legal weapons allowed. ( Mind you,  I'm not saying anything political, I'm just pointing out how it could be very convenient to blame video games to be the origin of all that is wrong in society while everything else is ignored.  )

Modifié par Sylvianus, 20 septembre 2013 - 08:16 .

[Gwydden]

MissOuJ wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

This is something that I do not understand. What wouldn't be considered as titillation for male viewers with sex scenes. Both the the guy and the woman are naked most of time.

Because it is written with male gaze in mind. The way the whole act is portrayed, how it's filmed, how the couple is arranged and what position they're in. For example, I have seen my fair share of sex scenes where the guy is either partially or completely clothed, whereas the woman is completely naked, and even when the man is naked the camera films around him so the viewers mostly see the woman - which usually means a lot of breasts and whole body pans. It's just... weird. And annoying when it becomes obvious that the whole seen is just one overlong game of "hide the sausage with a naked lady". Remember the Simpsons movie opening? Like that, but less funny. I'd guess straight guys would rather not watch half-a-minute long camera pans of chiselled and gorgeous Adonises that leave nothing to imagination, particularly when every time you're about to see some more intimate female curves there's a convenient "cut" or "fade to black".

And then there're the sounds. Nothing says "steamy / romantic sex scene" than going "oh wow, she's totally faking it" / "she doesn't look like she's enjoying it at all" in your head.

It's also a big "well, if you're watching, ladies, take note that we don't particularly care about you as a demographic!" sign from the showrunners, since if they really cared about us, they'd show us something that we would actually like to see. Which is not this.

I've never seen it that way. It must be very frustrating. Specially since one would think that giving equal representation to both parties in an erotic scene would be easy since, you know, there are two parties.

[Gwydden]

Sylvianus wrote...

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Mahumia wrote...
 (small detail that there is that shiny 'M' rating and they are still buying it for their kids <_<)

Personally, I suspect that most parents don't give a crap, don't pay attention or don't even know what the M rating means. You can still see guns on the box for example, ( knowing it could be a violent game ) but it doesn't indicate really the strong content into the game, like sex and all.

Most of them don't care, until something goes wrong and they need a convenient scapegoat to blame their kid's recent criminal behavior on.
I recall some article about a mother who's drugdealing kid shot his fellow drugdealer - and it was all because he had played Manhunt (according to her at least). 

That's very true. Also I love how in The United States,, there are people that blame video games, but do not think at all about legal weapons allowed. ( Mind you,  I'm not saying anything political, I'm just pointing out how it could be very convenient to blame video games to be the origin of all that is wrong in society while everything else is ignored.  )

Not just video games. Roleplaying games, films and sometimes even books get thrown into the pyre too. You might believe that it's just all a way of saying you disapprove people enjoying different things of those you do.

[Sylvianus]

MissOuJ wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

This is something that I do not understand. What wouldn't be considered as titillation for male viewers with sex scenes. Both the the guy and the woman are naked most of time.

Because it is written with male gaze in mind. The way the whole act is portrayed, how it's filmed, how the couple is arranged and what position they're in. For example, I have seen my fair share of sex scenes where the guy is either partially or completely clothed, whereas the woman is completely naked, and even when the man is naked the camera films around him so the viewers mostly see the woman - which usually means a lot of breasts and whole body pans. It's just... weird. And annoying when it becomes obvious that the whole seen is just one overlong game of "hide the sausage with a naked lady". Remember the Simpsons movie opening? Like that, but less funny. I'd guess straight guys would rather not watch half-a-minute long camera pans of chiselled and gorgeous Adonises that leave nothing to imagination, particularly when every time you're about to see some more intimate female curves there's a convenient "cut" or "fade to black".

And then there're the sounds. Nothing says "steamy / romantic sex scene" than going "oh wow, she's totally faking it" / "she doesn't look like she's enjoying it at all" in your head.

It's also a big "well, if you're watching, ladies, take note that we don't particularly care about you as a demographic!" sign from the showrunners, since if they really cared about us, they'd show us something that we would actually like to see. Which is not this.

Didn't see it that way. That is an awesome explanation. Yeah, written with the male gaze, true.  Now I understand. And indeed, It would frustate me a lot. XD Okay, you convinced me.

I totally agree with the second part of your post by the way. I think we will not have to worry for DA:I over that point with Bioware. That said, I hope Bioware will be a bit less shy. Something like M1 or M3 would be cool.

[t0mm06]

JCAP wrote...

I assume it's the average age where most people get more "responsible" (can't find the proper word).

But, it's average, some take more time than others. My cousin is 17 but he is like a 12 old kid.

And it also depends on the culture, here in Portugal you can drive once you are 18, in USA you can drive if you are 16.

Actually its not the age where you 'get' more resonsible. It was actually based off the age by which time you are expected to have matured enough to deal with the 'most adult/mature' themes. So it wasn't a process of saying 'well a 17 year old wont be mature enough but an 18 year old certainly will be'  it was 'by the time you are 18 you should posess the level of 'maturity' required to play/watch/whatever this is' Which is not to say a 17 year old can't handel it, its to say that an 18 year old definatly should be able to. There is a small but important difference. 

[JCAP]

t0mm06 wrote...

JCAP wrote...

I assume it's the average age where most people get more "responsible" (can't find the proper word).

But, it's average, some take more time than others. My cousin is 17 but he is like a 12 old kid.

And it also depends on the culture, here in Portugal you can drive once you are 18, in USA you can drive if you are 16.

Actually its not the age where you 'get' more resonsible. It was actually based off the age by which time you are expected to have matured enough to deal with the 'most adult/mature' themes. So it wasn't a process of saying 'well a 17 year old wont be mature enough but an 18 year old certainly will be'  it was 'by the time you are 18 you should posess the level of 'maturity' required to play/watch/whatever this is' Which is not to say a 17 year old can't handel it, its to say that an 18 year old definatly should be able to. There is a small but important difference. 

Yeah, that is what I tried to say, but my English still not perfect so I have trouble to argue sometimes.

But, there are people that are 18 or 19 but aren't "matured" yet, like I said, my cousin is really like a 12 old kid. He is always skipping school, can be very childish with things like "I go first"...

Yes, he is 17 but I don't see him changing until 19 at least.

Modifié par JCAP, 20 septembre 2013 - 08:52 .

[t0mm06]

In Exile wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I watched Robocop when I was 6 (thanks older brother). It didn't bother me. But Friday the 13th movies gave me nightmares, so my parents wouldn't let me watch them until I was older. One of my best friends wasn't allowed to watch the A-Team. Not because it was violent (no one died), but because it was unrealistically non-violent. His parents didn't want him watching a TV show where a lot of gunfire happened that ultimately resulted in no genuine consequences happening.

I accidentally saw Event Horizon as a (very) young kid, and stumbled across a few episodes of the Outer Limits. Those things freaked me out so badly I had nightmares about it for years. 

Ha I saw Robo cop when i was around 6 and was fine... i saw It (the stephen king film) when i was 4 (a evil older brother)... long story short i still cant be around clowns

[t0mm06]

JCAP wrote...

t0mm06 wrote...

JCAP wrote...

I assume it's the average age where most people get more "responsible" (can't find the proper word).

But, it's average, some take more time than others. My cousin is 17 but he is like a 12 old kid.

And it also depends on the culture, here in Portugal you can drive once you are 18, in USA you can drive if you are 16.

Actually its not the age where you 'get' more resonsible. It was actually based off the age by which time you are expected to have matured enough to deal with the 'most adult/mature' themes. So it wasn't a process of saying 'well a 17 year old wont be mature enough but an 18 year old certainly will be'  it was 'by the time you are 18 you should posess the level of 'maturity' required to play/watch/whatever this is' Which is not to say a 17 year old can't handel it, its to say that an 18 year old definatly should be able to. There is a small but important difference. 

Yeah, that is what I tried to say, but my English still not perfect so I have trouble to argue sometimes.

But, there are people that are 18 or 19 but aren't "matured" yet, like I said, my cousin is really like a 12 old kid. He is always skipping school, can be very childish with things like "I go first"...

Yes, he is 17 but I don't see him changing until 19 at least.

The issue is that acting mature and being mature are also vastly different, for instance you 17 year old cousin, whilst acting immature is still in a lot of ways more mature then a 12 year old (in his ablity to deal with some things and process things)... I'm talking about sub-concious maturity, something which is much more important for people to deal with mature content then outwards cognative maturity. I know i've probably not explained that very well (apologies) but i think the point is there. 

[Ninja Stan]

schalafi wrote...

I hope Bioware will concentrate on making their game pleasing to their prospective players. Personally, I am tired of clothed sex scenes, being passed off as Mature. If we're going to have an M rated game, then stop making  sex scenes for children.  Sex scenes can be done without full nudity... there are many ways they can be portrayed, but scenes with characters fully clothed, down to boots, knives, water bottles, etc, (specifically Anders) is going too far in the other direction. There has to be some happy medium.

I disagree with you. A "happy medium" isn't required at all when only one side wants something more and the side doing all the work and assuming all the risk is okay with the status quo. As you say, "there are many ways they can be portrayed," and BioWare has chosen one of them. You can prefer a different way of doing it, but this doesn't make BioWare's way wrong, nor does it mean BioWare is "making sex scenes for children." And framing the argument that way is kind of immature, as BioWare games are generally rated M(17+) in North America.

Consider a technical reason why BioWare may be doing their sex scenes a certain way: to make a "nude" love scene, BioWare would have to create nude versions of the character models, which requires a non-zero amount of time and effort to create. They would do this for one cutscene. That's time, effort, and memory for one short scene. Simply put, it may not be worth the trouble.

On a design note, BioWare isn't in the business of making games with explicit sex or nudity in them, Mass Effect sideboob notwithstanding. Their games are evocative, cinematic, and story- and character-driven, and they have worked hard to make the games "pleasing to their prospective players." A fade to black is very evocative and really hasn't decreased their fans' gushing about their love stories one bit over the years.

Finally, on a ratings note, it is entirely possible to have an M-rated game in North America that contains absolutely no romance, nudity, or sexuality. An M rating is not prescriptive of the content a game must have; it is descriptive of the content a game does have.

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 20 septembre 2013 - 10:08 .

[Ninja Stan]

And let's please remember to keep this discussion non-political. We don't need to cast judgement on whether the U.S. attitude to sex and nudity is wrong, whether parents monitor their kids' media consumption, or whether European attitudes are superior. Those are kinda off-topic for this discussion, which is largely about DAI, its content, and the rating it is likely to get in the future.

[Angrywolves]

I hate fade to black.
The Liara romance scenes are what Bioware should aspire to in DAI.
I expect them to come up short and give Gaider a self fulfilling prophecy.
He says he wants to cut back on the romances, he may if Bioware is sloppy with the romances get his wish.
Supposedly GTA5 has already gone over a billion dollars .
What a company may be in the business of doing or not doing could easily go out the window if they thought they could get those kinds of numbers. EA, which owns Bioware isn't immune to that.
I expect DAI's M rating to be largely due to bloodshed and violence.

[Chanda]

Since we're talking about sex scenes, I'll just say that I preferred the Origins' style to DA2's style. Origins felt much more intimate. If there was a way to pull that off for Inquisition, I hope that Bioware would do it.

Modifié par Chanda, 21 septembre 2013 - 12:02 .