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[Eternal Phoenix]

Sex, boobies and willies.

Is that mature enough for you BSN?

[Fallstar]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Sex, boobies and willies.

Is that mature enough for you BSN?

Well that obviously depends on the quantity!

On a serious note, if the game makes me stop and think and carefully consider certain decisions, then it is a 'mature' game in my book. I suppose that means the game has to make me care about the game world in order for it to be mature to me. The presence of complex political choices like that of the Dwarven king, or moral ones such as what to do with Zathrian and the Werewolves represents maturity to me rather than the amount of violence, nudity, language etc.

[Ihatebadgames]

I liked ROME better than Spartacus. It had sex, drugs, murder and betrayal, with a slightly better plot.
Game of Thrones, Spartacus, ROME and Split Shot all have mature stories with plots and reasons for the characters acting the way the do.
CNN did the ME xbox story first, Fox did it second and later Fox reporter apologized for getting it wrong. CNN never did.

[kinderschlager]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Yes, it's mature. No, it wouldn't be rated as such. Mature in the sense of complexity and depth isn't the same as mature in the sense of ratings. As Ninja Stan pointed out, ratings are more or less arbitrarily handed out on the basis of set criteria.

I don't know if I'd say that they are arbitrarily handed out.

As a general question to people: do you know why "mature content" gets rated as "mature?"

i know how it's done for movies in the U.S. and it's absolute BS, but for games i would *think* it has to do with the level of violence, types of subjects covered, and level of sexualization

[kinderschlager]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Boobies and swearing. Photo realistic mass slaughter gets you a teen as far as I can tell.

-really smart stuff-

And yet nothing is shown. Did Fox scare them or something? Nudity can be incorporated well, avoiding it because you might ****** off the media is irritating.

I am seriously considering suggesting a policy that any thread that includes the idea that we don't do nudity because we're afraid of Fox News grounds for an instant thread closure.


EDIT: I didn't mean to actually close the thread (although I am thinking about it....)

than why don't you?

[kinderschlager]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

A person that makes 18 years don't magically turns mature.

Nor does it suddenly make them equipped to vote or drink alcohol responsibly.

That's not the point, though. Why do you think the age, 18, was chosen?

politics.

[o Ventus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well, I did play GTA Vice City when I was 8 and San Andreas when I was 10. Didn't kill anybody yet.

Mature is an interesting concept.

I would *really* prefer to not go down this tangent.

At no point did I (or as far as I can tell, anyone else) indicate that an "immature" person consuming content like this would lead one to start killing people. It's a non sequitur and I consider it off topic for this discussion.

It's a little off-topic, but... Jack Thompson. That's all I'm saying. Everything from Pac-Man to Doom to GTA to Gears of War is a realistic murder simulator, according to him.

Modifié par o Ventus, 21 septembre 2013 - 03:32 .

[kinderschlager]

DuskWarden wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Sex, boobies and willies.

Is that mature enough for you BSN?

Well that obviously depends on the quantity!

On a serious note, if the game makes me stop and think and carefully consider certain decisions, then it is a 'mature' game in my book. I suppose that means the game has to make me care about the game world in order for it to be mature to me. The presence of complex political choices like that of the Dwarven king, or moral ones such as what to do with Zathrian and the Werewolves represents maturity to me rather than the amount of violence, nudity, language etc.

sadly, society seems to like enforcing eltonss choices as the reasons why and not the ones you have given (IMO, probably because they're simple easy to understand words that require little thought to imagine what is being portrayed)

[Plaintiff]

kinderschlager wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Boobies and swearing. Photo realistic mass slaughter gets you a teen as far as I can tell.

-really smart stuff-

And yet nothing is shown. Did Fox scare them or something? Nudity can be incorporated well, avoiding it because you might ****** off the media is irritating.

I am seriously considering suggesting a policy that any thread that includes the idea that we don't do nudity because we're afraid of Fox News grounds for an instant thread closure.


EDIT: I didn't mean to actually close the thread (although I am thinking about it....)

than why don't you?

Because they don't want to. It's as simple as that.

[Nightwriter]

The ratings explanations were quite illuminating. I thank you. I suppose I'd always thought ratings were there to quantify the things the PTA of the western world typically wanted to protect their children from: nudity, violence, swearing, etc.

[Allan Schumacher]

On some level it's a topic that comes up a lot. If we can somewhat consolidate it and talk a bit more about how ratings are applied, what it means by "mature" content and so forth, it could be a benefit.

[d4eaming]

I was reading Stephen King and Dean Koontz in the 6th grade. I started with The Talisman and Lightning, respectively. I then moved on to The Dark Half and The Bad Place. My 6th grade teacher was horrified and asked if my mommy knew what I was reading. (For the record, yes she did, and in fact, she bought me the book!). I won't presume that this was normal. My classmates struggled with The Secret Garden, Mrs Frisby and the Rats of NIMH, and Watership Down. I read each of them within days of their assignment.

Basically, what I am getting at, is assuming that because you can handle the content, doesn't mean everyone can. And no, a "mature audiences" tag does not mean it needs nudity.

[Fast Jimmy]

kinderschlager wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

A person that makes 18 years don't magically turns mature.

Nor does it suddenly make them equipped to vote or drink alcohol responsibly.

That's not the point, though. Why do you think the age, 18, was chosen?

politics.

Well, I'm not at all an expert, but I believe in U.S. History, this was largely driven by conscription ages. Originally, males age 21-31 were seen as the ideal age range for war, as they had the highest likelihood of being fully matured physically, while also being in prime physical condition. However, this age range was not effective enough to meet conscription needs, so it was widened to ages 18 to 45 in World War 1.

These age ranges remained in place, where an individual could be sent ot war as early as age 18 legally. Prior to the 70's, the age range to vote was set by the states, and could be as low as 16 and high as 25. Protests against the Vietnam War and how soldiers sent to die at age 18 could not even vote on if they thought the war should be going on prompted the Amendment to the Constitution to be passed that allowed voting for all people ages 18 and above who were not fellons.

After that, most legal precedents of an individual being able to make their own decisions followed this same age range of 18 years, minus the purchase and consumption of alcohol. This just seems to be the standard.




So... I guess the idea is if you are old enough for your government to give you a gun to go and kill people, then you are old enough to buy a video game that gives you a gun and let's you kill people, too. And all other manner of "adult" or "mature" activities that entails.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 21 septembre 2013 - 04:27 .

[d4eaming]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

kinderschlager wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

A person that makes 18 years don't magically turns mature.

Nor does it suddenly make them equipped to vote or drink alcohol responsibly.

That's not the point, though. Why do you think the age, 18, was chosen?

politics.

Well, I'm not at all an expert, but I believe in U.S. History, this was largely driven by conscription ages. Originally, males age 21-31 were seen as the ideal age range for war, as they had the highest likelihood of being fully matured physically, while also being in prime physical condition. However, this age range was not effective enough to meet conscription needs, so it was widened to ages 18 to 45 in World War 1.

These age ranges remained in place, where an individual could be sent ot war as early as age 18 legally. Prior to the 70's, the age range to vote was set by the states, and could be as low as 16 and high as 25. Protests against the Vietnam War and how soldiers sent to die at age 18 could not even vote on if they thought the war should be going on prompted the Amendment to the Constitution to be passed that allowed voting for all people ages 18 and above who were not fellons.

After that, most legal precedents of an individual being able to make their own decisions followed this same age range of 18 years, minus the purchase and consumption of alcohol. This just seems to be the standard.




So... I guess the idea is if you are old enough for your government to give you a gun to go and kill people, then you are old enough to buy a video game that gives you a gun and let's you kill people, too. And all other manner of "adult" or "mature" activities that entails.

Except, like you say, drinking. Because it's totally okay to tell an 18 year old boy he has to go die for his country, but he can't get totally sloshed over the fact until he's three years older. Except in England, where the drinking age is 18, and where the age of consent and age required to buy tobacco products is 16.

Which makes so much sense.

18 is completely arbitrary, and has nothing to do with actual maturity, which is mental, not necessarily physical. It's a general age where society only hopes the individual is mature, not a hard line that means maturity once crossed. I don't necessarily agree with the current age restrictions for movies, games, and music, but I also don't have a viable alternative. I just know that I, personally, could handle "mature" content when I was 12 years old. It's not universal, so an age has to be picked, and society has decided that 18 if the magic age.

[Nightwriter]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

On some level it's a topic that comes up a lot. If we can somewhat consolidate it and talk a bit more about how ratings are applied, what it means by "mature" content and so forth, it could be a benefit.

It certainly helps to dispel the notion that a decline in nudity must be caused by fear of the ratings police.

[Nightdragon8]

haa.... this topic...... we don't need boobs to tell a good story, if you need boobs to tell a good story, honestly your just a teenager looking for a porn fix.

Also "Just because" its mature rating doesn't mean they "Should/Need" to put other "matrure" stuff into a game.

Also just so you all know, thats not how the rating system works. in fact if they where to put it all into one game, it could in fact bump the rating to an A rating. In which case you will be carded and only found in the "naughty" section of select stores.

So.. do they "Need" boobs, full frontal nudirty to make a good game. No. Should they put it in? Thats up to the writers. Will they add it because of X did it. Then you have to ask yourself, Just because your friend jumped off a bridge and killed themself do you have to? The answer, no.

So my opionion on it is this, and will always be this. Full frontal nudity, Wont ever ever say no to it.

however is it "required" no, DA games stand well enough on there own to not go down that path.

If the morals of the US/Canda/whereever change to allow it, cool. other than that just because its "mature" doesn't mean we "Need" nudity.

[Allan Schumacher]

18 is completely arbitrary, and has nothing to do with actual maturity, which is mental, not necessarily physical. It's a general age where society only hopes the individual is mature, not a hard line that means maturity once crossed.

If this is the case, then it isn't really arbitrary. There is a reason for picking the age, even if we may not all agree on the reasons being valid.

No one here suggested that 18 is the age on where a hardline on maturity has been crossed and I think most agree that it'd be foolish to suggest that such an age could exist.

[kinderschlager]

Plaintiff wrote...

kinderschlager wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Boobies and swearing. Photo realistic mass slaughter gets you a teen as far as I can tell.

-really smart stuff-

And yet nothing is shown. Did Fox scare them or something? Nudity can be incorporated well, avoiding it because you might ****** off the media is irritating.

I am seriously considering suggesting a policy that any thread that includes the idea that we don't do nudity because we're afraid of Fox News grounds for an instant thread closure.


EDIT: I didn't mean to actually close the thread (although I am thinking about it....)

than why don't you?

Because they don't want to. It's as simple as that.

if that's not a good enough type of answer for us to give it shouldn't be good enough for bioware either. (perception of double standards and all that jazz)

[Plaintiff]

kinderschlager wrote...

if that's not a good enough type of answer for us to give it shouldn't be good enough for bioware either. (perception of double standards and all that jazz)

When did anyone say it wasn't a good enough reason?

[kinderschlager]

Plaintiff wrote...

kinderschlager wrote...

if that's not a good enough type of answer for us to give it shouldn't be good enough for bioware either. (perception of double standards and all that jazz)

When did anyone say it wasn't a good enough reason?

it was a generalization. simplistic answers tend to anger the developers. if there's a reason for them NOT doing something, a single sentence isn't a satasfactory answer, just like it's not a satisfactory answer for why someone wants something to be added to or removed from the game.

[Allan Schumacher]

simplistic answers tend to anger the developers.

This isn't necessarily true at all. Simple answers are often just straight forward answers that don't get get obfuscated. Being concise can be a real asset. I know this as someone that is prone to writing walls of text.


Regardless, this is going off topic and isn't really relevant (I felt the earlier comments were mostly tongue in cheek).

[Cainhurst Crow]

Maturity for me is approaching subjects in ways that may end up making audiences feel uncomfortable, or angry, or sad, or even downright disgusted with, and not softening the blow.

Say you have a scenario where a person dies. The mature thing to do would be to show either mourning or the process of grief play out. Showing that this person was alive, they lived a life separate from what your character was doing, they were not beings existing in a vacuum, whose sole purpose was to play their part in the game and quickly see themselves out when their part is over. Immaturity would be ending the interaction or mention of the character after the moment of death, essentially brushing off that they ever existed outside of their single interaction with the player and not having the character remember them when their part is done.

Now it's important not to go overboard with this, the chances of you meeting the loved ones or seeing the funerals of every npc and generic enemy you beat would be both ridiculous and insane. But having key characters for plots not be simple set pieces but portrayed as real person with a family, friends, and a place in the world, is one of the many elements I would consider mature.

This is a narrow example, but I think it illustrates the basic idea behind my idea of mature.