230 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

kinderschlager wrote...
it was a generalization. simplistic answers tend to anger the developers.

When?

if there's a reason for them NOT doing something, a single sentence isn't a satasfactory answer, just like it's not a satisfactory answer for why someone wants something to be added to or removed from the game.

Well that's not really the same thing at all. The developers are the ones doing the work, so they get to decide what goes in and what gets cut.

Particularly in the case of optional content, which players can just ignore if it's not to their taste, they should be required to explain why ignoring it isn't good enough for them.

[Valdrane78]

Mature is a relative term. There are some games that are rated M that I think my 13 year old daughter can handle, while others I don't.

As for DA:I it will probably get an M rating for prolonged scenes of violence, sexual themes, partial nudity, blood and gore and possibly alcohol references.

When it comes right down to it, ultimately it is the parents responsibility to govern what their child can or cannot play. I'll let my daughter play the DA games, CoD games, but I wont let her play any of the GTA games. I wont let my daughter play games that have violence for violence sake or nudity for the sake of nudity. If it is part of the plot and the story it's usually ok. I think my little girl is smart enough to know what is real and that there are real world consequences for doing things in real life that you do in a video game.

[Megakoresh]

For me "Mature" means "Witcher 2". THAT is mature. A mature game simply makes no assumptions about what the player wants or needs and is not afraid to do ANYTHING as long as it helps the context. For example if Mass Effect 3 was mature, it would not be so fed up with "Making sure it's an equally good experience for both new and old players".

It would likely not be so linear in comparison to previous ME games, it would have had proper exploration and side missions, it would not have had so much auto-dialogue and it would not have had "space-magic" as an undeniably forced way to appear "mature" in the end by doing some contrived nonsense (unexpected=!mature).

Mature games feel relatable. They don't feel contrived. Now I am still more comfortable playing DAO than Witcher 2, despite liking W2 way more, but that's because of that relation. Witcher 2 is dark and uncomfortable game, but because it feels smooth, nothing feels like it's been on paper before being in the game, that "hollywood stage feel" isn't there, I feel more uncomfortable playing that game since I can really relate to what's happening. It's not been simplified and smoothed out to highlight the apex of the script and hide all the "boring life details".

If Origins was as dark and gritty I would not feel as uncomfortable playing it. In fact when I make evil decisions and watch sad scenes and whatever, none resonate as much as even side-quest decisions in W2 do. Because I am ALWAYS able to "see the script". I can always see it like it's on a stage. It's a very difficult thing to actually hide in your game, but it ultimately boils down to one thing:

Make your game how you wanna make it. Make your world how it's supposed to function. Make your dialogue how it would happen in real life. And let players figure it out. Never at any point think that "This detail makes it too complicated" or "This the player may not have noticed". Seriously. You know in Dead Space 3 when we installed some device onto a ship as part of the mission, the character said "Wait, I am not getting anything... Ah, no, it works fine." Very minor detail there, but look how rarely it's used. In 99% of other games she would either say "Damn, doesn't work" or "Great! It works!". But that's not how it functions in real life, is it. That's what being " on a stage" is about.

You know when I first played Witcher 2 I thought half the dialogue was translated by people who can't speak English. It was when i played in the 3rd time and read all the Character bios and journal that I realized that those nonsensical lines are relating to something which the player is just expected to know, if it was happening in real life. THAT is mature. Sex and ****** isn't.

Modifié par Megakoresh, 21 septembre 2013 - 09:43 .

[Vilegrim]

Megakoresh wrote...

For me "Mature" means "Witcher 2". THAT is mature. A mature game simply makes no assumptions about what the player wants or needs and is not afraid to do ANYTHING as long as it helps the context. For example if Mass Effect 3 was mature, it would not be so fed up with "Making sure it's an equally good experience for both new and old players".

It would likely not be so linear in comparison to previous ME games, it would have had proper exploration and side missions, it would not have had so much auto-dialogue and it would not have had "space-magic" as an undeniably forced way to appear "mature" in the end by doing some contrived nonsense (unexpected=!mature).

Mature games feel relatable. They don't feel contrived. Now I am still more comfortable playing DAO than Witcher 2, despite liking W2 way more, but that's because of that relation. Witcher 2 is dark and uncomfortable game, but because it feels smooth, nothing feels like it's been on paper before being in the game, that "hollywood stage feel" isn't there, I feel more uncomfortable playing that game since I can really relate to what's happening. It's not been simplified and smoothed out to highlight the apex of the script and hide all the "boring life details".

If Origins was as dark and gritty I would not feel as uncomfortable playing it. In fact when I make evil decisions and watch sad scenes and whatever, none resonate as much as even side-quest decisions in W2 do. Because I am ALWAYS able to "see the script". I can always see it like it's on a stage. It's a very difficult thing to actually hide in your game, but it ultimately boils down to one thing:

Make your game how you wanna make it. Make your world how it's supposed to function. Make your dialogue how it would happen in real life. And let players figure it out.

You know when I first played Witcher 2 I thought half the dialogue was translated by people who can't speak English. It was when i played in the 3rd time and read all the Character bios and journal that I realized that those nonsensical lines are relating to something which the player is just expected to know, if it was happening in real life. THAT is mature. Sex and ****** isn't.

SO much THIS.

[Lluthren]

Topsider wrote...

Lluthren wrote...

Let me correct myself: Sometimes it seems that even one woman's nipple is enough.

And you would be right. Sex/nudity will almost certainly be given a mature rating, but that doesn't apply to violence. Most 'teen' games are violent action and killing from start to finish, and loaded with profanity. The moment you show a nipple though, expect a harsh response.

And I don't even understand why. Isn't violence just a little bit worst than a boob? Most people sucked on them as babies and have seen themselves naked before. Boobs, to me, are much like a man's chest only round.
There's just this odd stigma about the naked body that people can't seem to get over.

[Plaintiff]

Megakoresh wrote...

For me "Mature" means "Witcher 2". THAT is mature. A mature game simply makes no assumptions about what the player wants or needs and is not afraid to do ANYTHING as long as it helps the context. For example if Mass Effect 3 was mature, it would not be so fed up with "Making sure it's an equally good experience for both new and old players".

What are you talking about? The Witcher makes dozens of assumptions. For starters, it assumes I want to play a character like Geralt.

It would likely not be so linear in comparison to previous ME games, it would have had proper exploration and side missions, it would not have had so much auto-dialogue and it would not have had "space-magic" as an undeniably forced way to appear "mature" in the end by doing some contrived nonsense (unexpected=!mature).

Linearity and predictability have nothing to do with maturity. Most "mature" rated games are entirely linear.

Mature games feel relatable. They don't feel contrived.

What.

Now I am still more comfortable playing DAO than Witcher 2, despite liking W2 way more, but that's because of that relation. Witcher 2 is dark and uncomfortable game, but because it feels smooth, nothing feels like it's been on paper before being in the game, that "hollywood stage feel" isn't there, I feel more uncomfortable playing that game since I can really relate to what's happening. It's not been simplified and smoothed out to highlight the apex of the script and hide all the "boring life details".

So meaningless trivialities are "mature"?

If Origins was as dark and gritty I would not feel as uncomfortable playing it. In fact when I make evil decisions and watch sad scenes and whatever, none resonate as much as even side-quest decisions in W2 do. Because I am ALWAYS able to "see the script". I can always see it like it's on a stage. It's a very difficult thing to actually hide in your game, but it ultimately boils down to one thing:

So because you personally aren't able to predict the plot of The Witcher 2, it's more 'mature'? How are these two concepts even remotely relevant?

Make your game how you wanna make it.

Bioware already does that.

Make your world how it's supposed to function. Make your dialogue how it would happen in real life.

Can you provide examples of these vague statements where Dragon Age fails and The Witcher succeeds?

And let players figure it out. Never at any point think that "This detail makes it too complicated" or "This the player may not have noticed".

Why?

Seriously. You know in Dead Space 3 when we installed some device onto a ship as part of the mission, the character said "Wait, I am not getting anything... Ah, no, it works fine." Very minor detail there, but look how rarely it's used. In 99% of other games she would either say "Damn, doesn't work" or "Great! It works!". But that's not how it functions in real life, is it. That's what being " on a stage" is about.

This doesn't make even a lick of sense. If you struggle to set up your microwave, is your microwave more "mature" than the microwave that works perfectly right away or explodes on the first attempt?

You know when I first played Witcher 2 I thought half the dialogue was translated by people who can't speak English. It was when i played in the 3rd time and read all the Character bios and journal that I realized that those nonsensical lines are relating to something which the player is just expected to know, if it was happening in real life. THAT is mature. Sex and ****** isn't.

There's nothing 'mature' about being obfuscatory and hiding important information. In the real world, that's the opposite of 'mature'. It's not acceptable adult behaviour in any part of functioning society. Hiding information in real life gets you in trouble.

All I see is you equating "maturity" to your own personal preference.

[Megakoresh]

Plaintiff wrote...
Nonsensical fanboi "argument"

Hey if you didn't like Witcher 2, you don't have to post nonsense pretending you read and understood the post you are "arguing" with. You can just say "I didn't like Witcher 2". It would be funny if it at least wouldn't look like you pretend to be "serious". That's what Mass Effect 3 kinda did. Was all holleywood run of the mill storyline and then the script writers suddenly thought "Hmm, not "mature" enough, let's put in some non-sensically contrived stuff to tell players how "serious" we are!". That's what your post reads like.

I mean come on you couldn't come up with anything better than

Plaintiff wrote...
Linearity and predictability have nothing to do with maturity. Most "mature" rated games are entirely linear.

?

I mean if you want to show others that your opinion's actually a legitimate equivalent, at least make sure you read the post you are "arguing" with and make sure you understand it. (I do really hate fanboism, is it too obvious?)

Something at least remotely of value that i can extract from your post here (this reply isn't for you, Mr. fanboi, I doubt you'd be able to constructively reply after what I've seen):

Plaintiff wrote...
Can you provide examples of these vague statements where Dragon Age fails and The Witcher succeeds?

Yeah I can do that. For instance
When Triss is talking to Dethmold/Phillipa in Act 1 in Witcher 2 her dialogue is confusing and the player for the first won't really know what's going and why they are discussing what they are discussing. The motivations from the dialogue itself are unclear.

In a similar situation when Anora comes up to her father to ask about the events in Ostagar it is clear who she is, why her father did what he did and what jis stance on the situation is. Because Maker forbid, the player may get confused. And there are NO details in that conversation that are not apparent, but will play a role later on. It's all accessibly experessed and easy to watch. Brainwork not required. It's a joy ride. And that's not how life works. Hence you can't relate.

The point is: there is satisfaction in realizing what the information means. Like in real life new things are confusing. And then when the pieces come together in the end we can reconsider it and understand every detail.

In all BioWare games the storyline is rolled in front of people as a carpet and all we have to do is walk. A mature game, in my persepective, lets the player to do the rolling. And it takes no precautions because the player "might not be rolling it correctly". If the player is not able to cope with having to use their brain when pressing a dialogue choice to cosnider all the, as he said "trivial detials" and how it may affect the outcome.

If the player can only accept the decision when it crystal clear without any thought of what this button press will result in throught he entire remainder of the plot, the chances are this player is either underaged or not mentally "mature" when it comes to videogames.

The choice of what kind of player the game wants to appeal to remains after BioWare. They might go with the usual non-mature storyline or they might approach it from a more Witcher 2 prespective. If the game's good, I'll likely play it anyway, because BioWare does characters better than CDPR and for that experience I will play DAI.

But the Storyline in Witcher 2 is undeniably better than any other game I have ever heard of because it is layed out in a form that we would experience it in if it was real (being written extremely well and branching to an extend that no other game has gone befor helps too). There are no compomises, no handholding, no precautions done in asusmption that the player might not do it "the right way" or might not understand something.

If I make a choice and it results in something which i don't want or expect, it's always because *I* am the one who didn't consider something. That something is usually not obvbious. I have to think about eveyr decision I make and that adds real weight. It's not "Press A, get a cake; press B, get a candy" choice. It's a real choice. It has way more variables.

I don't think, though, that if it comes to deciding if BioWare wants a mature storyline or if they want their great characters, that storyline should take priority. BioWare are still best with characters, NOT storyline and it's always important to play to your strengths. Witcher 3 will definitely provide enough storyline awesomeness for everyone to enjoy and BioWare can stick to characters, that Witcher 3 will likely not provide as much. Less competition that way, more people buy both games. It's a win-win situation. I know, if DAI turns out to be good, I'll definitely buy both.

Modifié par Megakoresh, 21 septembre 2013 - 04:33 .

[Angrywolves]

Like I said , the bloodshed will most likely be the determing factor .
Scenes like the village massacre, where Varric seemed distraught and some naive players thought it must mean that DA2 party members were among the dead. Scenes like that.
Add in Destruction 4.0 and the stated desires of the " evil dude " players to commit genocide in the game and that's more than enough for an M rating.

[Plaintiff]

[quote]Megakoresh wrote...

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Nonsensical fanboi "argument"
[/quote][/quote]
You think I'm a 'fanboi'? I criticise Bioware plenty.

Also, what's with the name-calling? Is that 'mature'?

[quote]Hey if you didn't like Witcher 2, you don't have to post nonsense pretending you read and understood the post you are "arguing" with. You can just say "I didn't like Witcher 2". It would be funny if it at least wouldn't look like you pretend to be "serious".[/quote]
I have no opinion of The Witcher 2. But it is false to say it makes no assumptions about the player, it absolutely does. That's a necessary, inescapable part of making a product for public consumption.

For someone who doesn't like assumptions, you're sure making a lot of assumptions about me.

[quote]That's what Mass Effect 3 kinda did. Was all holleywood run of the mill storyline and then the script writers suddenly thought "Hmm, not "mature" enough, let's put in some non-sensically contrived stuff to tell players how "serious" we are!". That's what your post reads like.[/quote]
All situations in all of fiction are contrived, because they are fiction. But whether or not a story seems contrived is irrelevent to whether or not it is mature.

[quote]I mean come on you couldn't come up with anything better than
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Linearity and predictability have nothing to do with maturity. Most "mature" rated games are entirely linear.
[/quote]?[/quote]
"You couldn't come up with anything better than FACTS? God, you're such a fanboi."

[quote]I mean if you want to show others that your opinion's actually a legitimate equivalent, at least make sure you read the post you are "arguing" with and make sure you understand it. (I do really hate fanboism, is it too obvious?)[/quote]
Buddy, it's not even obvious what language you are speaking.

[quote]Something at least remotely of value that i can extract from your post here (this reply isn't for you, Mr. fanboi, I doubt you'd be able to constructively reply after what I've seen):
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Can you provide examples of these vague statements where Dragon Age fails and The Witcher succeeds?[/quote][/quote]
All I did was ask you to explain why you regard these qualities as 'mature'. You made the claim, I want to see the evidence to back it up. What definition of the word 'mature' are you using that applies to The Witcher, and why do these qualities fit?

[quote]Yeah I can do that. For instance
When Triss is talking to Dethmold/Phillipa in Act 1 in Witcher 2 her dialogue is confusing and the player for the first won't really know what's going and why they are discussing what they are discussing. The motivations from the dialogue itself are unclear.

In a similar situation when Anora comes up to her father to ask about the events in Ostagar it is clear who she is, why her father did what he did and what jis stance on the situation is. Because Maker forbid, the player may get confused. And there are NO details in that conversation that are not apparent, but will play a role later on. It's all accessibly experessed and easy to watch. Brainwork not required. It's a joy ride. And that's not how life works. Hence you can't relate.

The point is: there is satisfaction in realizing what the information means. Like in real life new things are confusing. And then when the pieces come together in the end we can reconsider it and understand every detail.

In all BioWare games the storyline is rolled in front of people as a carpet and all we have to do is walk. A mature game, in my persepective, lets the player to do the rolling. And it takes no precautions because the player "might not be rolling it correctly". If the player is not able to cope with having to use their brain when pressing a dialogue choice to cosnider all the, as he said "trivial detials" and how it may affect the outcome.[/quote]
By this logic, any movie, book or tv show that people can easily follow is automatically 'immature'. Do you understand how silly your argument is? A piece of fiction can only be mature if it deliberately conceals information from the audience?

You still haven't explained why being confusing makes a game 'mature'.

[quote]If the player can only accept the decision when it crystal clear without any thought of what this button press will result in throught he entire remainder of the plot, the chances are this player is either underaged or not mentally "mature" when it comes to videogames.[/quote]
This is gibberish, and in any case, the consequences of the choices in Bioware games are not immediatly clear. That you personally might be able to guess where they are going is irrelevent. It is impossible to guess the results of any choice before you make it, unless you have metainformation.

And again, what does any of this have to do with being 'mature'? Why are these qualities mature? Where is the link?

[quote]The choice of what kind of player the game wants to appeal to remains after BioWare. They might go with the usual non-mature storyline or they might approach it from a more Witcher 2 prespective. If the game's good, I'll likely play it anyway, because BioWare does characters better than CDPR and for that experience I will play DAI.[/quote]
Okay?

[quote]But the Storyline in Witcher 3 is undeniably better than any other game I have ever heard of because it is layed out in a form that we would experience it in if it was real (being written extremely well and branching to an extend that no other game has gone befor helps too). There are no compomises, no handholding, no precautions done in asusmption that the player might not do it "the right way" or might not understand something.[/quote]
First of all, The Witcher 3 isn't out yet, don't count your chickens before they hatch.

Second of all, what? Are you deliberately making no sense because that's 'mature'? This is just a word salad.

[quote]If I make a choice and it results in something which i don't want or expect, it's always because *I* am the one who didn't consider something. That something is usually not obvbious. I have to think about eveyr decision I make and that adds real weight. It's not "Press A, get a cake; press B, get a candy" choice. It's a real choice. It has way more variables.[/quote]
Bioware's choices have unforeseen consequences also. Every single choice in fiction or reality has unforeseen consequences because we cannot see the future.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 septembre 2013 - 02:39 .

[Reever]

Ninja Stan wrote...
I disagree with you. A "happy medium" isn't required at all when only one side wants something more and the side doing all the work and assuming all the risk is okay with the status quo. As you say, "there are many ways they can be portrayed," and BioWare has chosen one of them. You can prefer a different way of doing it, but this doesn't make BioWare's way wrong, nor does it mean BioWare is "making sex scenes for children." And framing the argument that way is kind of immature, as BioWare games are generally rated M(17+) in North America.

Consider a technical reason why BioWare may be doing their sex scenes a certain way: to make a "nude" love scene, BioWare would have to create nude versions of the character models, which requires a non-zero amount of time and effort to create. They would do this for one cutscene. That's time, effort, and memory for one short scene. Simply put, it may not be worth the trouble.

On a design note, BioWare isn't in the business of making games with explicit sex or nudity in them, Mass Effect sideboob notwithstanding. Their games are evocative, cinematic, and story- and character-driven, and they have worked hard to make the games "pleasing to their prospective players." A fade to black is very evocative and really hasn't decreased their fans' gushing about their love stories one bit over the years.

Finally, on a ratings note, it is entirely possible to have an M-rated game in North America that contains absolutely no romance, nudity, or sexuality. An M rating is not prescriptive of the content a game must have; it is descriptive of the content a game does have.

You are totally right, but it doesn't change the fact that those scenes are/can be freaking awkward. I'd just prefer a fade-to-black instead of dry humping, to be honest. And I presume others think so as well. I might be mistaken though

[Ryzaki]

I'd take a fade to black over the awkwardness of DAO's scenes anyday. Least fade to black doesn't give me the urge to make sure no one sees what I'm playing.

[Angrywolves]

I hate fade to black .
Why bother with romance scenes at all if your're going to have that fade to black nonsense .
Didn't find the DAO romance scenes awkward .
Some people complained about the "underwear sex", but Bioware choose to do it that way.
Liara's romance scenes from the ME series should be the template for DAI romance scenes, passionate yet tastefully done.
shrugs.

[Mahumia]

BlueDemonX wrote..

Ninja Stan wrote...
I disagree with you. A "happy medium" isn't required at all when only one side wants something more and the side doing all the work and assuming all the risk is okay with the status quo. As you say, "there are many ways they can be portrayed," and BioWare has chosen one of them. You can prefer a different way of doing it, but this doesn't make BioWare's way wrong, nor does it mean BioWare is "making sex scenes for children." And framing the argument that way is kind of immature, as BioWare games are generally rated M(17+) in North America.

Consider a technical reason why BioWare may be doing their sex scenes a certain way: to make a "nude" love scene, BioWare would have to create nude versions of the character models, which requires a non-zero amount of time and effort to create. They would do this for one cutscene. That's time, effort, and memory for one short scene. Simply put, it may not be worth the trouble.

On a design note, BioWare isn't in the business of making games with explicit sex or nudity in them, Mass Effect sideboob notwithstanding. Their games are evocative, cinematic, and story- and character-driven, and they have worked hard to make the games "pleasing to their prospective players." A fade to black is very evocative and really hasn't decreased their fans' gushing about their love stories one bit over the years.

Finally, on a ratings note, it is entirely possible to have an M-rated game in North America that contains absolutely no romance, nudity, or sexuality. An M rating is not prescriptive of the content a game must have; it is descriptive of the content a game does have.

You are totally right, but it doesn't change the fact that those scenes are/can be freaking awkward. I'd just prefer a fade-to-black instead of dry humping, to be honest. And I presume others think so as well. I might be mistaken though

Sure there are reasons for the way the scenes are done Stan. That is your right as developer. I just want to provide my feedback nonetheless  

Further I agree with bluedemon, so sorry if I was unclear.

[MissOuJ]

Angrywolves wrote...

I hate fade to black .
Why bother with romance scenes at all if your're going to have that fade to black nonsense .

Because sometimes the important part of the romance isn't the sex but how the new relationship dynamic affects your PC / your companions / your romance interest / the plot. Say, doing the dark ritual is different with romanced and unromanced Morrigan - not to mention a female Warden who's romancing Alistair.

This happends in DA2 too: who you romance and how you romance them (friendship / rivalry) effects how the plot affects the player: a player who romanced Merrill / Isabela / Sebastian / Fenris is going to have a very different reaction to the Chantry explosion compared to a player who romanced Anders.

And I have to say I'm not a huge fan of underwear sex, but the thing that made the DA:O sex scenes really awkward for me was the Enya -knock-off in the background. No offence to Aubrey Ashburn, but... just not my cup of tea.

[Angrywolves]

How you get to a romance is important I admit but so is how two people express their love and passion for one another and that almost always involves sex.
Otherwise they might as well just hold hands.
Didn't like DA2s romances, felt they were woefully inadequate and insufficient .
Not a fan of the playsexual approach , either someone is straight , gay, or bisexual.
The undies sex was silly.
There are player mods of at least some of the DAO scenes, with the characters nude and the scenes well done imo.And no male frontal nudity in the ones I have seen.
Sad there no way I know to have modded the PS3, although there are claims that it's possible to mod the xbox.
Sad there was no toolkit for DA2, and there likely won't be one for DAI.
To me, I want nice well done realistic romance scenes. Don't need to see the mail frontal nudity .
But regardless , the killing and bloodshed will likely be way over what we've seen in the previous games.

[t0mm06]

Angrywolves wrote...

How you get to a romance is important I admit but so is how two people express their love and passion for one another and that almost always involves sex.
Otherwise they might as well just hold hands.
Didn't like DA2s romances, felt they were woefully inadequate and insufficient .
Not a fan of the playsexual approach , either someone is straight , gay, or bisexual.
The undies sex was silly.
There are player mods of at least some of the DAO scenes, with the characters nude and the scenes well done imo.And no male frontal nudity in the ones I have seen.
Sad there no way I know to have modded the PS3, although there are claims that it's possible to mod the xbox.
Sad there was no toolkit for DA2, and there likely won't be one for DAI.
To me, I want nice well done realistic romance scenes. Don't need to see the mail frontal nudity .
But regardless , the killing and bloodshed will likely be way over what we've seen in the previous games.

What about female nudity? i imagin a lot of the female players dont want to see that just as much as you dont want to see the male full frontal... although i imagine there are a few who would .. 

[In Exile]

Megakoresh wrote...
The point is: there is satisfaction in realizing what the information means. Like in real life new things are confusing. And then when the pieces come together in the end we can reconsider it and understand every detail.

Let me understand. Let's suppose we have two people: A and B. B is brilliant. A is an idiot. 

Is the story "mature" for A, because A can barely understand it? And is it immature for B, who can predict it from the onset? 

Let's take another example. Suppose we have another two people. C and D. C has a lot of experience with the genre. C is aware of the tropes and conventions. D is not.

Is the story "mature" for D, who cannot predict the plot due to inexperience? And is it suddenly "immature" for C, who knows where it is going?

How does it make sense for the standard of what a thing means - maturity - to be so idiosyncratic?

[Megakoresh]

In Exile wrote...

Megakoresh wrote...
The point is: there is satisfaction in realizing what the information means. Like in real life new things are confusing. And then when the pieces come together in the end we can reconsider it and understand every detail.

Let me understand. Let's suppose we have two people: A and B. B is brilliant. A is an idiot. 

Is the story "mature" for A, because A can barely understand it? And is it immature for B, who can predict it from the onset? 

Let's take another example. Suppose we have another two people. C and D. C has a lot of experience with the genre. C is aware of the tropes and conventions. D is not.

Is the story "mature" for D, who cannot predict the plot due to inexperience? And is it suddenly "immature" for C, who knows where it is going?

How does it make sense for the standard of what a thing means - maturity - to be so idiosyncratic?

Hehe well that was funny. Wait you aren't serious... are you? 

[MissOuJ]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Wanting nudity, but only for the gender you're sexually attracted to, smacks very strongly of wanting nudity simply for eye candy for yourself, not for the benefit of the game.

Because that's exactly what it is - and that's one of the reasons people who praise female-nudity heavy games for being so "mature" about their portrayal of sex and romance go automatically to my "do not engage" -list. ****** = good. Male nudity or any kind = Ew ew ew!

Modifié par MissOuJ, 21 septembre 2013 - 04:36 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Megakoresh, I am getting the impression that you equate "mature" simply with "something you enjoy."

A mature game simply makes no assumptions about what the player wants or
needs and is not afraid to do ANYTHING as long as it helps the context.

How do you differentiate between a mature game, and a game that simply has poor design and instruction?

It would likely not be so linear in comparison to previous ME games, it
would have had proper exploration and side missions, it would not have
had so much auto-dialogue and it would not have had "space-magic" as an
undeniably forced way to appear "mature" in the end by doing some
contrived nonsense (unexpected=!mature).

To be frank, I feel this has absolutely nothing to do with maturity.  The impression I get from this is that a non-linear game is an innately more mature game.  I do not understand your definition of maturity.  I fundamentally disagree with the notion that something that is unexpected cannot be mature.  Though I think you may have just chosen your words in a less clear way.  If you're referring to things like plot twists, then I'd agree.  But your parenthetical remark obfuscates that point by being a blanket statement.

Mature games feel relatable. They don't feel contrived. Now I am still
more comfortable playing DAO than Witcher 2, despite liking W2 way more,
but that's because of that relation. Witcher 2 is dark and
uncomfortable game, but because it feels smooth, nothing feels like it's
been on paper before being in the game, that "hollywood stage feel"
isn't there, I feel more uncomfortable playing that game since I can
really relate to what's happening. It's not been simplified and smoothed
out to highlight the apex of the script and hide all the "boring life
details".

Mature games are "relatable."  This statement confuses me.  What do you mean by relatable.  Wouldn't relatability be a rather unique, personal experience?

If Origins was as dark and gritty I would not feel as uncomfortable
playing it. In fact when I make evil decisions and watch sad scenes and
whatever, none resonate as much as even side-quest decisions in W2 do.
Because I am ALWAYS able to "see the script". I can always see it like
it's on a stage. It's a very difficult thing to actually hide in your
game, but it ultimately boils down to one thing:

Make your game
how you wanna make it. Make your world how it's supposed to function.
Make your dialogue how it would happen in real life. And let players
figure it out. Never at any point think that "This detail makes it too
complicated" or "This the player may not have noticed". Seriously. You
know in Dead Space 3 when we installed some device onto a ship as part
of the mission, the character said "Wait, I am not getting anything...
Ah, no, it works fine." Very minor detail there, but look how rarely
it's used. In 99% of other games she would either say "Damn, doesn't
work" or "Great! It works!". But that's not how it functions in real
life, is it. That's what being " on a stage" is about.

See, I am always able to "see the script" for The Witcher 2.  Perhaps I am just so mature that the game cannot pull a fast one on me?

You know when I first played Witcher 2 I thought half the dialogue was
translated by people who can't speak English. It was when i played in
the 3rd time and read all the Character bios and journal that I realized
that those nonsensical lines are relating to something which the player
is just expected to know, if it was happening in real life. THAT is
mature. Sex and ****** isn't.

Again, how is that "mature?"  You have convinced me that you enjoy The Witcher 2.  I'm having a hard time convincing myself that it's because you find it mature, or if you apply the term to it simply because it's a positive term and the game has left a strong, positive impression on  you.


On some level I think we may have to agree to disagree, because for me a mature piece of entertainment is one that makes me reflect on the topic and themes provided.  To literally make me think "what does that mean?"  Not in a "I don't understand what is going on" sort of way, but in a critical analysis of what I have experienced sort of way.


Pulp Fiction is very smart and doesn't hold a person's hand at all, and it is very entertaining.  But I would still consider Shawshank Redemption to be more mature.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 21 septembre 2013 - 04:41 .

[Gwydden]

MissOuJ wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Wanting nudity, but only for the gender you're sexually attracted to, smacks very strongly of wanting nudity simply for eye candy for yourself, not for the benefit of the game.

Because that's exactly what it is - and that's one of the reasons people who praise female-nudity heavy games for being so "mature" about their portrayal of sex and romance go automatically to my "do not engage" -list. ****** = good. Male nudity or any kind = Ew ew ew!

I'm a man, and I don't mind male nudity at all. I don't think is necessary to show any gender's private parts in a video game, but the point stands that in some scenes is better to use camera angles to hide them rather than fall into ridicule (e.g. the werewolves magical underpants, almost naked Cailan, underwear sex, particularly while in the shower, and so on).

[Angrywolves]

People have different preferences.
I don't like seeing male frontal nudity .
That is my preferences .
If some players don't like seeing female frontal nudity or want to see male frontal nudity that's a right they have.
Just like I have my right to see other things.
Ultimately Bioware , unless EA overrules them will make the game they want to make.For someone to attack me over my game romance preferences is asanine and silly.
Going down this road will lead to the thread getting locked.
So I've decided to abandon this discussion .
shrugs and walks away.