230 réponses à ce sujet

[Megakoresh]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
On some level I think we may have to agree to disagree, because for me a mature piece of entertainment is one that makes me reflect on the topic and themes provided.  To literally make me think "what does that mean?"  Not in a "I don't understand what is going on" sort of way, but in a critical analysis of what I have experienced sort of way.

I have posted later on saying this, as well as explaining my point in a more clear way. See, the point of a mature game is that only an adult mind can actually understand and relate to the plot and issues it presents (I hope you aren't talking about ratings). If a 7 year old kid can perfectly understand every problem and dilemma in a game (if they have that low a complexity) that means the game isn't mature enough.

Like I said in the previous post: Witcher 2 makes me think critically about what I am going to do. I sometimes spend minutes at the dialogue screen thinking of different reprecussions and moral issues that the choice will have. In Origins I didn't have to. I looked at the choice and I know what exactly will it entail, if it is moral or not, if it will be affected by any specific detail or not.

If I extrapolate, say, the Scoiatel vs Blue stripes situation. You are goign to make that choice based on a ton of stuff in the game (as well as the first game) that you will weight down and decide which side you'll want to pick. If I was to extrapolate this into Mass Effect 3 style of choice, then you'd have an obviously pre-determined "good", "bad" and perhaps neutral choice, all arguments for and against which will be layed out in front of you in the 5 minutes of gameplay precending that choice.

This is in many respects this whole Black and White debate. But the presentation is also important. A choice between Triss and Anais in Act 3 of Witcher 2 requires weighting down the entire plots of BOTH first and the second games. When I get the choice in Origins about who kills the Archdemon, I won't need to consider anything past the Landsmeet to have all the required knowledge for the opinion.

That's what the carpet reference was about.

Now if you claim to be able to always see script in Witcher 2 that's most likely due to simply being an dev yourself and working in a company that makes same type of games. 

Again I want to emphasise that this type of storytelling is not required for a good game. You can make do with characters and have everyone praise it all the same. Furthermore Witcher 2 has a problem of choices being Bad#1 and Bad#2, they always resulted in more negativity than positivity and while it falls within the concept of dark and gritty world, I think it was overdone in places.

But if you are gonna make your game have a mature storyline, then for it to be considered such, you need to keep in mind how choices are not supposed to be simple, and how the opinion for those choices should be formed following the whole plot, and not just the last few minutes before the choice is made. DA2 actually did it better. With Mages Vs Templars we had been forming the opinion throughout the whole game and it was throwing us back and forth showing good and bad of both sides for the entire duration of the game. The choice at the end felt like it formed rather than made.

Modifié par Megakoresh, 21 septembre 2013 - 05:20 .

[MissOuJ]

Gwydden wrote...

I'm a man, and I don't mind male nudity at all. I don't think is necessary to show any gender's private parts in a video game, but the point stands that in some scenes is better to use camera angles to hide them rather than fall into ridicule (e.g. the werewolves magical underpants, almost naked Cailan, underwear sex, particularly while in the shower, and so on).

Oh I completely agree - I actually prefer camera angle tricks myself, since most of the time sex scenes that drop into the Uncanny Valley are their own special brand of creepy. But almost every time the topic of mature themes and sex in video games comes up there's at least one guy who comments something along the lines of "see, this X game did it right, because it wasn't afraid to show anything!" - where anything actually means "lots of female nudity" and it really smacks to me like "hey, you know what video games need to be mature and progressive and a respected medium? More female objectification! - which really suits me because I'm a heterosexual guy. What's that? Anders is hitting on me? Mayday! Mayday! Gimme the hetero-toggle, stat!"

Not to say that all guys do it, or that all guys like romance just for the nude scenes, or that women can't like the sex scenes for the nudity, or that straight gamers can't like gay/bi NPC's just fine, but there's almost always that one guy that comes into the conversation going "Nudity is ok, as long as it's female nudity" which is usually where I at least feel like that's the only aspect of female characters (and women in general) that those gamers care about - and by extention the industry that keeps giving these gamers exactly what they want, while at the same time some publishers still outright shun playable female characters. It's really discouraging as a woman and as a gamer.

So yeah, I agree with you that full-frontal nudity is often not necessary - but if nudity fits the themes and the setting (I mentioned Spartacus a few pages back, where I really think it fits) I'm a-okay with it, as long as it isn't pandering, is mostly equal opportunity, and serves other purposes besides titillation.

[ReallyRue]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

There are player mods of at least some of the DAO scenes, with the characters nude and the scenes well done imo.And no male frontal nudity in the ones I have seen.

...



To me, I want nice well done realistic romance scenes. Don't need to see the mail frontal nudity .

I keep seeing this--male nudity is bad, but female nudity is okay.

I don't understand. Wouldn't it be one (both) or the other (neither)? How can you say you truly want nudity when you don't want male nudity, just female?


Wanting nudity, but only for the gender you're sexually attracted to, smacks very strongly of wanting nudity simply for eye candy for yourself, not for the benefit of the game.

I agree with this.
It's very annoying to see people (on this website and elsewhere), going on about why they can't have a bit of nudity in their sex scenes, how much more 'mature' it would be, more realistic, whatever. Yet that only seems to apply to women's bodies. When it comes to penises, the same people who criticise game developers for not being able to handle the 'maturity' of nudity in their sex scenes then start shrieking about how they couldn't bear to see a penis on their screen.
Which is just ridiculous.

Modifié par ReallyRue, 21 septembre 2013 - 05:12 .

[schalafi]

Ninja Stan wrote...

schalafi wrote...

I hope Bioware will concentrate on making their game pleasing to their prospective players. Personally, I am tired of clothed sex scenes, being passed off as Mature. If we're going to have an M rated game, then stop making  sex scenes for children.  Sex scenes can be done without full nudity... there are many ways they can be portrayed, but scenes with characters fully clothed, down to boots, knives, water bottles, etc, (specifically Anders) is going too far in the other direction. There has to be some happy medium.

I disagree with you. A "happy medium" isn't required at all when only one side wants something more and the side doing all the work and assuming all the risk is okay with the status quo. As you say, "there are many ways they can be portrayed," and BioWare has chosen one of them. You can prefer a different way of doing it, but this doesn't make BioWare's way wrong, nor does it mean BioWare is "making sex scenes for children." And framing the argument that way is kind of immature, as BioWare games are generally rated M(17+) in North America.

Consider a technical reason why BioWare may be doing their sex scenes a certain way: to make a "nude" love scene, BioWare would have to create nude versions of the character models, which requires a non-zero amount of time and effort to create. They would do this for one cutscene. That's time, effort, and memory for one short scene. Simply put, it may not be worth the trouble.

On a design note, BioWare isn't in the business of making games with explicit sex or nudity in them, Mass Effect sideboob notwithstanding. Their games are evocative, cinematic, and story- and character-driven, and they have worked hard to make the games "pleasing to their prospective players." A fade to black is very evocative and really hasn't decreased their fans' gushing about their love stories one bit over the years.

Finally, on a ratings note, it is entirely possible to have an M-rated game in North America that contains absolutely no romance, nudity, or sexuality. An M rating is not prescriptive of the content a game must have; it is descriptive of the content a game does have.

I wasn't asking for, nor do I even want, full nudity in love scenes. I would rather have "fade to black" any time rather than awkward depictions of sex scenes. In my game I liked all the scenes with Anders *until* the bed scene. If the game had faded to black before that I would have had no complaints.

You as a Bioware member have the right to your opinion on maturity and love/sex scenes and I respect that, but I have the right to my opinion too, and I respectfully maintain that, for me, some of the scenes were embarassing and awkward.

Modifié par schalafi, 21 septembre 2013 - 05:34 .

[shootist70]

Allan Schumacher wrote...


Pulp Fiction is very smart and doesn't hold a person's hand at all, and it is very entertaining.  But I would still consider Shawshank Redemption to be more mature.

I don't agree, Allan. If we're talking about a rating classification then most of what is considered 'mature' comes down to the balance of what's explorative and what's exploitative.

Consider the violent events that you might get within a movie, such as the sexual assaults you mentioned in both Pulp Fiction and The Shawshank Redemption: you might ask, are the events there to propel the narrative, or are they there to 'propel' a character?

If the events are used to set up a dramatic roller-coaster of a narrative - shocking and emotional - and go no further than that, then it might be said that they are gratuitious. Even exploitative. If they are used to portray a character, and the effects of those events upon a character and the subsequent nature of the character itself, they might be said to be explorative.

There's an important difference there. Using those events to explore their effects upon a character, and dramatically portray those effects, can 'humanise' that violence for the audience. We get a more potent and real sense of the costs involved to the people involved.

It's often said that this sort of storytelling is beneficial for an audience. It's how we get to explore the 'other' - the things that may never happen to us but to other people, and to understand. We can even come to get something of understanding of other cultures through brilliantly done fiction. Even a younger audience might be able to learn about certain 'mature' themes when those themes are handled skillfully in this way.

That's why the censors (here in Europe at least), will always use a lighter hand with works that explore certain themes rather than simply exploit them for a daring narrative.

That's also why The Shawshank Redemption is less of a 'mature' movie than Pulp Fiction (a movie I also like).

Modifié par shootist70, 21 septembre 2013 - 05:35 .

[MissOuJ]

Megakoresh wrote...

Like I said in the previous post: Witcher 2 makes me think critically about what I am going to do. I sometimes spend minutes at the dialogue screen thinking of different reprecussions and moral issues that the choice will have. In Origins I didn't have to. I looked at the choice and I know what exactly will it entail, if it is moral or not, if it will be affected by any specific detail or not.

If I extrapolate, say, the Scoiatel vs Blue stripes situation. You are goign to make that choice based on a ton of stuff in the game (as well as the first game) that you will weight down and decide which side you'll want to pick. If I was to extrapolate this into Mass Effect 3 style of choice, then you'd have an obviously pre-determined "good", "bad" and perhaps neutral choice, all arguments for and against which will be layed out in front of you in the 5 minutes of gameplay precending that choice.

I have to say that the Witcher 2 really shines in this regard - its portrayal of violent and backed-against-the-wall revolutionary movements and morally gray decision making is right on the money. I just wish the game wasn't such a hot mess in its portrayal of other issues...

Megakoresh wrote...

A choice between Triss and Anais in Act 3 of Witcher 2 requires weighting down the entire plots of BOTH first and the second games.

... like its handling of female characters, for one. Almost all the women of Witcher 2 end up either 1) dead / mutilated 2) kidnapped / drugged / raped / otherwise damselled during the course of the game.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 21 septembre 2013 - 05:37 .

[Nyx_Necrodragon]

ReallyRue wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

There are player mods of at least some of the DAO scenes, with the characters nude and the scenes well done imo.And no male frontal nudity in the ones I have seen.

...



To me, I want nice well done realistic romance scenes. Don't need to see the mail frontal nudity .

I keep seeing this--male nudity is bad, but female nudity is okay.

I don't understand. Wouldn't it be one (both) or the other (neither)? How can you say you truly want nudity when you don't want male nudity, just female?


Wanting nudity, but only for the gender you're sexually attracted to, smacks very strongly of wanting nudity simply for eye candy for yourself, not for the benefit of the game.

I agree with this.
It's very annoying to see people (on this website and elsewhere), going on about why they can't have a bit of nudity in their sex scenes, how much more 'mature' it would be, more realistic, whatever. Yet that only seems to apply to women's bodies. When it comes to penises, the same people who criticise game developers for not being able to handle the 'maturity' of nudity in their sex scenes then start shrieking about how they couldn't bear to see a penis on their screen.
Which is just ridiculous.

Finally someone who thinks the same way I do. If you are gonna go for realistic then do it right and not just female nakedness. Think of us girls, if we wanted to see one-sided nakedness we'd just stare at ourselves in the mirror after a shower.

[MissOuJ]

Nyx_Necrodragon wrote...

Finally someone who thinks the same way I do. If you are gonna go for realistic then do it right and not just female nakedness. Think of us girls, if we wanted to see one-sided nakedness we'd just stare at ourselves in the mirror after a shower.

Add me to the list as well. Nudity or no nudity, it should be equal opportunity.

[mupp3tz]

MissOuJ wrote...

Nyx_Necrodragon wrote...

Finally someone who thinks the same way I do. If you are gonna go for realistic then do it right and not just female nakedness. Think of us girls, if we wanted to see one-sided nakedness we'd just stare at ourselves in the mirror after a shower.

Add me to the list as well. Nudity or no nudity, it should be equal opportunity.

Hey, that's pretty catchy.

[Iakus]

Well, I'm hoping "mature" ends up meaning "Deals with adult concepts in a serious and thoughtful manner" and not "boobs, butts, and arterial spray"

[Megakoresh]

MissOuJ wrote...

Nyx_Necrodragon wrote...

Finally someone who thinks the same way I do. If you are gonna go for realistic then do it right and not just female nakedness. Think of us girls, if we wanted to see one-sided nakedness we'd just stare at ourselves in the mirror after a shower.

Add me to the list as well. Nudity or no nudity, it should be equal opportunity.

I totally support this, though there is one issue: women seem to have 2 nudity options, one considered much more mild than the other (if barely at all TBH, naked breasts seem to become more and more trivial every year). Men only have one and it's therefore considered... well... Play Loadout, you'll see.

Just as long as it makes sense I am fine with it. Like for instance in Reckoning Dokkalfar were barely wearing any clothes, but both male and female had that habit, so what's the problem? It's only an issue when one side it deliberately being pushed in front, that it's annoying. I don't like it when I am being pushed... I prefer to push myself...(couldn't resist, soz)

Modifié par Megakoresh, 21 septembre 2013 - 06:13 .

[aphelion4]

Didn't read the thread. Did BOOBEHS AND VAJAYJAYS come up yet? That is the trend I notice on the BSN whenever topics of maturity come up, with mentions of the Witcher's full frontal FEMALE nudity coming up as "innovative" and "a step in the right direction".

As an artist, I don't mind nudity at all. I've drawn naked people, I've seen naked people. However, If nudity is just going to be in the game so someone can get their rocks off, then it's just plain creepy. (Edi's 3D vag was a 99 on the Creepo Scale, like wow. I can't believe someone actually took the time to sculpt that). I don't mind tasteful sex scenes, but when it gets to the point of doing something like one-sided nudity then it's a pretty damn good indicator of fanservice. Like I think we can all tell the difference between LOOK AT TEH BOOBS LULZ/ LOOK A VAGINA and a touching moment between two people who have found comradary/friendship/love/whatever and want to lose themselves in a night of passion.

Modifié par aphelion4, 21 septembre 2013 - 06:29 .

[Vicious]

(if barely at all TBH, naked breasts seem to become more and more trivial every year)

[fchopin]

For me what i call mature is being able to play a mature character and not a character like Hawke who behaved like a monkey most times.

Give us mature characters and NPC's who do not behave like monkeys in a zoo.

[In Exile]

fchopin wrote...

For me what i call mature is being able to play a mature character and not a character like Hawke who behaved like a monkey most times.

Give us mature characters and NPC's who do not behave like monkeys in a zoo.

What the hell does that even mean? The only context I've ever heard this line is, well, in terms of racism against African-Americans, but that makes no sense.

[slimgrin]

fchopin wrote...

For me what i call mature is being able to play a mature character and not a character like Hawke who behaved like a monkey most times.

Give us mature characters and NPC's who do not behave like monkeys in a zoo.

Lol. There is something inherently awesome about this comment.

Modifié par slimgrin, 21 septembre 2013 - 08:10 .

[mupp3tz]

In Exile wrote...

fchopin wrote...

For me what i call mature is being able to play a mature character and not a character like Hawke who behaved like a monkey most times.

Give us mature characters and NPC's who do not behave like monkeys in a zoo.

What the hell does that even mean? The only context I've ever heard this line is, well, in terms of racism against African-Americans, but that makes no sense.

Eh.. I think it's a stretch to call him/her racist. That's an association you're making all on your own... but I do find the mature game = mature characters a bit odd. I've seen plenty media with immature characters doing things that very much warrant a "Viewer Discretion" notice.

[In Exile]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...
Eh.. I think it's a stretch to call him/her racist. That's an association you're making all on your own... but I do find the mature game = mature characters a bit odd. I've seen plenty media with immature characters doing things that very much warrant a "Viewer Discretion" notice.

Oh my! No, I totally apologize if it sounds like I was implying the post was racist. I meant no such thing!

It's just that I've never seen monkey used as a pejorative in any other context. I honestly don't know what it could mean, other than racism, but racism makes absolutely zero sense. So I'm at a loss to understand the reference to monkeys.

[mupp3tz]

In Exile wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...
Eh.. I think it's a stretch to call him/her racist. That's an association you're making all on your own... but I do find the mature game = mature characters a bit odd. I've seen plenty media with immature characters doing things that very much warrant a "Viewer Discretion" notice.

Oh my! No, I totally apologize if it sounds like I was implying the post was racist. I meant no such thing!

It's just that I've never seen monkey used as a pejorative in any other context. I honestly don't know what it could mean, other than racism, but racism makes absolutely zero sense. So I'm at a loss to understand the reference to monkeys.

Haha no I apologize as well.. but, you know, sometimes what you say doesn't have a deeper meaning. In this context, I'm assuming "monkeys in a zoo" = irrational, uninhibited, wild, etc. And, yes, the racism context doesn't make any sense because I don't think it was there to begin with. 

[In Exile]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...
Haha no I apologize as well.. but, you know, sometimes what you say doesn't have a deeper meaning. In this context, I'm assuming "monkeys in a zoo" = irrational, uninhibited, wild, etc. And, yes, the racism context doesn't make any sense because I don't think it was there to begin with. 

If we take your meaning - and you're probably right - I just don't get how it ties to maturity. The idea that the world is made up of perfectly rational and informed decision makers, IMO, is pretty naive.