272 réponses à ce sujet

[Astartes Marine]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Well, with the endorsement of Shepard, the great galactic hero, along with his own scathing condemnation of the alliance and the Council, that'll change.

This is the kind of talk I'd expect out of Seival, how one person can suddenly change the opinions of everyone and no one could argue against.  We all know Cerberus' past and I'd bet that a large part of the galaxy will not be so quick to forgive, even slower to accept.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Plus my Shepard will shoot anyone who tries to shoot at them.

Even if it's a lawful government agency out to arrest Cerberus agents?  Or civilians who don't want to be experimented on?  Or people who want revenge for lost family/friends/loved ones that Cerberus took from them?
Congratulations in continuing the tradition of Cerberus being on the universal **** list of the galaxy at large.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
My
take on Cerberus: The heroes the galaxy deserves, but not the ones it
needs right now...and so we'll hunt then, because they can take it.
Because they're not heroes. They're a silent guardian, a watchful
protector...a dark knight.

UGH.  Overused sappy quote that would offend Batman.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I'm on humanity's side. The galaxy's side. Against the Reapers.

The Illusive Man kept repeating that line minus the galaxy bit and we found out his true colors.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
It
just so happens that I'm willing to be just as 'disgusting' and
'despicable' as the Reapers to beat them.

And yet you're restricted to whatever the game allows you to, unless you're headcanoning the whole concept.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
And the people of the galaxy will get
down on their bloody knees and thank me for it, just like when they came
to me on their bloody knees begging me to save them.

Someone's full of themself. 

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I
don't care what their reputation is. I provide safety and security for
the galaxy en masse. They don't get to question how I provide it.
Otherwise, good luck fixing your own problems against the
Reapers.

So this has all been an argument over your own headcanon?  Again this is the kind of thing I'd expect from Seival. 

[ScriptBabe]

Astartes Marine wrote...

I like the idea, it could have saved alot of ME3 and allowed the devs to better reward older fans as well as get newcomers up to speed quick.  It'd be tricky to pull off without sounding exactly like a "previously on..." segment though.

One hopes it would have been artfully done, but you could do it through witness testimony and have reactions and interactions.  It would have been so much fun.  Hmmm.  I may have to write that just for fun.  (Oh dear, another write more after writing all day on books and movies because this one would just be fun.)

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Astartes Marine wrote...

snip

I'm not arguing anything. I'm simply stating what will happen in my headcanon. I'm in no way trying to state anything objectively.

I'm thinking about beheading Hackett. Or should I dismember him publically?

Meanwhile, I hope TIM would be proud of his gold plated statue.

All this said, mainly to irritate you, yes, I do believe in Cerberus and I do believe the Dark Knight quote applies. 

Why is experimenting on my own people wrong? Especially if not performing the experiment costs us the war? I'm looking for an advantage to fight the Reapers, any advantage. And I'm willing to play dirty to do it.

I personally think that too many people have this concept of honor that gets in the way of doing what needs to be done.

Are you willing to kill innocent people to save the galaxy? I'll ask that. And I promise not to judge you for it.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 25 septembre 2013 - 10:31 .

[KaiserShep]

Batman would probably leave TIM tied up with a bow at the doorstep of Alliance HQ.

[The Night Mammoth]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

My take on Cerberus: The heroes the galaxy deserves, but not the ones it needs right now...and so we'll hunt then, because they can take it. Because they're not heroes. They're a silent guardian, a watchful protector...a dark knight. 

Batman in The Dark Knight and Cerberus are almost nothing alike.

[AlexMBrennan]

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
My
take on Cerberus: The heroes the galaxy deserves, but not the ones it
needs right now...and so we'll hunt then, because they can take it.
Because they're not heroes. They're a silent guardian, a watchful
protector...a dark knight. [/quote]
UGH.  Overused sappy quote that would offend Batman.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Why are you quoting yourself?

In any case, Cerberus are not heroes - with a lot of headcanon they may be a necessary evil (e.g. much like the Grey Wardens).

[MassivelyEffective0730]

[quote]AlexMBrennan wrote...

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
My
take on Cerberus: The heroes the galaxy deserves, but not the ones it
needs right now...and so we'll hunt then, because they can take it.
Because they're not heroes. They're a silent guardian, a watchful
protector...a dark knight. [/quote]
UGH.  Overused sappy quote that would offend Batman.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Why are you quoting yourself?

In any case, Cerberus are not heroes - with a lot of headcanon they may be a necessary evil (e.g. much like the Grey Wardens). [/quote]

I didn't quote myself bud. Take a look. 

I don't care about being a hero. I don't care if people hate me. If I have to do 'evil' to fight 'evil', I'll do it, and I'll do it without regret or remorse. I'm willing to throw others under the bus to survive. To win. To beat the Reapers. Because no matter who I kill to get to my goal, at least someone will be able to come back and start a new and break the cycle.

You don't get that with the Reapers. They'll just kill everyone (except the primitives) and then start the cycle again. And it will go on for immeasurable cycles once more.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

StreetMagic wrote...

Cerberus might've started off Batman-ish, as vigilantes keeping check on colonization efforts. But then they became ****s who hurt the very colonists they vowed to protect and started acting a bit more like a mix of Batman and Poison Ivy.

My goal isn't to protect the innocent. My goal is to stop the Reapers from destroying the galaxy.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

My take on Cerberus: The heroes the galaxy deserves, but not the ones it needs right now...and so we'll hunt then, because they can take it. Because they're not heroes. They're a silent guardian, a watchful protector...a dark knight. 

Batman in The Dark Knight and Cerberus are almost nothing alike.

Not methodically, no. But perhaps philosophically. It entirely depends on how you view them. I view their actions as those of people willing to truly do whatever it takes to stop the Reapers. I commend the tenacity and the willingness to go to that extreme to stop the Reapers.

Lets say that it's like Col. Kurtz from Apocalypse Now. And Col. Kilgore.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

StreetMagic wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Cerberus might've started off Batman-ish, as vigilantes keeping check on colonization efforts. But then they became ****s who hurt the very colonists they vowed to protect and started acting a bit more like a mix of Batman and Poison Ivy.

My goal isn't to protect the innocent. My goal is to stop the Reapers from destroying the galaxy.

That's not how Cerberus started. The Reapers weren't even on anyone's minds until a couple of (in game) years ago.

True. But I think TIM knew that someone, or something, was coming as evidenced in Evolutions, and that in order for humanity to survive, something drastic would need to be accomplished. That said, I do agree with Cerberus' goal of promoting, protecting, and advancing human interests, and going beyond the law and norms of acceptable conduct to do it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

StreetMagic wrote...

They did nothing to stop the Reapers except act like c*ckblockers and meddlers. There's no way to portray them except as retards who incessantly get in your way and make the game loathesome. "Taking casualties!!"

In ME3, perhaps. I don't believe TIM realized he was indoctrinated, and I won't lie, it was rather horrendous how he let himself and Cerberus get that close to the Reapers to fall into their trap. They unfortunately became a liability to the very cause they were fighting for and had to be stopped for the good of the galaxy.

[themikefest]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
My goal isn't to protect the innocent. My goal is to stop the Reapers from destroying the galaxy.

I agree

[MassivelyEffective0730]

themikefest wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
My goal isn't to protect the innocent. My goal is to stop the Reapers from destroying the galaxy.

I agree

If I stop to save the innocent, eventually the Reapers will destroy my military. And all I did was prolong the inevitable for the civilians.

If I sacrifice them, or better, use them as a resource against the Reapers, I can preserve my military long enough to create a shot at success. A very long shot, but's it much better than the odds I face fighting the Reapers. I don't give a damn about any 'soul of the species'.

[themikefest]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

themikefest wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
My goal isn't to protect the innocent. My goal is to stop the Reapers from destroying the galaxy.

I agree

If I stop to save the innocent, eventually the Reapers will destroy my military. And all I did was prolong the inevitable for the civilians.

If I sacrifice them, or better, use them as a resource against the Reapers, I can preserve my military long enough to create a shot at success. A very long shot, but's it much better than the odds I face fighting the Reapers. I don't give a damn about any 'soul of the species'.

Again I agree.

I have no problem sacrificing the innocent so the military can  find a way to kill the reapers.

[Astartes Marine]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I'm not arguing anything. I'm simply stating what will happen in my headcanon. I'm in no way trying to state anything objectively.

So that whole little "disagreement" we had a few pages back was mostly over nothing at all?  That's what posting on a forum while being affected by insomnia will get me.  <_<

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
All this said, mainly to irritate you, yes, I do believe in Cerberus and I do believe the Dark Knight quote applies.

I'll be perfectly serious and honest:  I agree with the goals of Cerberus, hell I even admire their goals...I do not agree with many of their methods however.

I personally subscribe to this quote:
I have seen my share of death, both honourable and despicable, and yes, I know that war is a brutal, bloody business capable of bringing out the best and the worst in men.
This is a harsh, dangerous galaxy, with untold terrors lurking in the dark to devour us, but the minute we turn on our own kind and murder them, we might as well take a blade to our throats.
~~Captain Uriel Ventris, leader of the Ultramarines 4th Company~~
Quote taken from "The Killing Ground" by Graham McNiell

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Why
is experimenting on my own people wrong? Especially if not performing the experiment costs us the war? I'm looking for an advantage to fight the Reapers, any advantage. And I'm willing to play dirty to do it.

Funny thing is even without all of Cerberus' experiments in ME3 the war would still have been won, all they did was meddle with and slow down the effort.

Personally instead of mucking about with Rachni and Thorian Creepers and "controlling husks" I would:
Pour resources into development of new weapons, armor, shield systems, and the like.
Use whatever operatives within the Alliance to nudge them in the right direction for helping prepare against the Reapers.
Get agents and operatives out there to help train colonial militia and whip them into effective fighting forces.
Coax weapons manufacturers into perhaps producing weapons wholesale for those colonial militias and even regular civilians for when the Reapers do strike.  Arming up for armageddon as it were, everyone with a weapon.

And there's many forms of experimentation, I was always referring to the unsavory kinds that tend to involve civilians and them being fed to Rachni or Thorian Creepers.  If you REALLY want to do those kinds of experiments feel free to experiment with and against Vorcha instead or Krogan if you want to create great expendable shock troops.  Don't use humans.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I personally think that too many people have this concept of honor that gets in the way of doing what needs to be done.

Honor if you let it cloud your vision can limint one's self yes...it can also be a good grounding force to help keep one focused.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Are you willing to kill innocent people to save the galaxy? I'll ask that. And I promise not to judge you for it.

I will not kill innocents if it can be avoided.  As with Arrival...sometimes those sacrifices can't be avoided, though 300,000+ lives for only 6 months (of nothing significant being done during that time) to this day seems a steep price to pay.

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 25 septembre 2013 - 11:49 .

[The Night Mammoth]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

My take on Cerberus: The heroes the galaxy deserves, but not the ones it needs right now...and so we'll hunt then, because they can take it. Because they're not heroes. They're a silent guardian, a watchful protector...a dark knight. 

Batman in The Dark Knight and Cerberus are almost nothing alike.

Not methodically, no. But perhaps philosophically. It entirely depends on how you view them. I view their actions as those of people willing to truly do whatever it takes to stop the Reapers. I commend the tenacity and the willingness to go to that extreme to stop the Reapers.

Batman isn't like that. In the Dark Knight, the whole dynamic between Batman and the Joker was about Batman not saving Gotham through any means necessary. It's both a methodical and philisophical difference, and a pretty important one at that. 

I wouldn't say Cerberus was evil. Morally questionable and deserving of being shut down, though? Absolutely. Their supposed goal of furthering humanity's interests wasn't a particularly noble one in my mind, at least not worthy of mass murder, kidnapping, torture and involuntary experimentation, and Cerberus never really appeared to me as an organisation that was truly dedicated to or cared about humanity as a species, but cared more about stroking a bunch of marginalised scientist's egos by funding insane experiments without any meaningful objectives, accumulating unecessarily vast amounts of power and wealth just for the sake of it without putting much of it to good use, and ultimately doing whatever one, shady, power hungry man wanted without question, whether it was for humanity or not.

Ultimately, Cerberus was too selfish an organisation to succeed or warrant my support.

Lets say that it's like Col. Kurtz from Apocalypse Now. And Col. Kilgore.

The psychopath who welcomed his own death because his actions and the things he saw mentally destroyed him? 

Yeah, I do get why you could make the comparison, but Kurtz isn't really the best character to compare Cerberus to, nor is Kilgore, since he, you know, basically glorified the extermination of hundreds of civilians.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 26 septembre 2013 - 12:42 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

StreetMagic wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Cerberus might've started off Batman-ish, as vigilantes keeping check on colonization efforts. But then they became ****s who hurt the very colonists they vowed to protect and started acting a bit more like a mix of Batman and Poison Ivy.

My goal isn't to protect the innocent. My goal is to stop the Reapers from destroying the galaxy.

That's not how Cerberus started. The Reapers weren't even on anyone's minds until a couple of (in game) years ago.

Actually, that *is* how they started. The Arca Monolith in ME:E gave TIM visions of the Reaper threat, ala Object Rho with Shepard during Arrival. Cerberus was set up expressly to protect humanity from unknown alien threats (we already made first-contact, so it wasn't the galactic races as we know them). TIM couldn't place it like Shepard did, but he knew something was out there and that we (humanity, or the galaxy, whichever you prefer) had to be ready for that. Hence TIM's line on Thessia: "I've been fighting them longer than you can imagine" (fanbase knee-jerk reaction here is "indoctrination!").

It would also explain why TIM is seemingly the only person in ME2 who hasn't forgotten/denied their existence.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 26 septembre 2013 - 01:01 .

[Erez Kristal]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...


And another thing about ME2 was this: Anderson: "Why are you working with Cerberus? Report for duty! That's an order!" Uh... that's the end of the ME2 plot right there. Why didn't Anderson say this line? The plot didn't make any sense. 

Unless Shepard was blocked from reporting to duty and anderson knew more than he was letting on.
The alliance wanted shepard to work with cerberus in me2 in order for him to solve the collectors issue.
Which is also why anderson offered the spectre status, another perk to make the job easier.

How far the connection goes we can only speculate. maybe or maybe not cerberus was still part of the alliance and it was only known to a selected few.

What is certian is that it was very convenient having solve all the alliance problems in the terminus system with the only organization and ship capable of doing so.

[DJBare]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Cerberus might've started off Batman-ish, as vigilantes keeping check on colonization efforts. But then they became ****s who hurt the very colonists they vowed to protect and started acting a bit more like a mix of Batman and Poison Ivy.

My goal isn't to protect the innocent. My goal is to stop the Reapers from destroying the galaxy.

Why?
Your statement gave me a moment of pause, earlier you stated you sanctoined the experiments on children, again it gave me a pause for thought, but then I remembered the universe is indifferent to the existence of all life, so if it came to a  choice between torturing and experimenting on children and losing what we are or letting the reapers roll in an wipe us out, I'd choose the latter, simply because the universe would start over again, your argument seems state we have some kind of importance in the universe, we do not.