272 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

Maybe that Reaper intel Shepard brought them bought some trust from them.

[wright1978]

Certainly should have been something other than the auto-dialogued monstrosity of an intro that we got. My Shep certainly would have liked to vent at being locked up for 6 months whilst the alliance fiddled before Rome burnt.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

while failing to reconcile the Council and Alliance's inaction

So what? Cerberus is a terrorist organisation, and Shepard willingly worked for them despite having loads of opportunities to return to the Alliance, and according to Tevos's comments in ME2 that crime carries the death penalty. Just because Shepard had a reson for committing a crime doesn't mean he's not guilty.

But as I said earlier, players didn't get a say in the matter and will thus defend and extol the virtues of terrorists.

I don't care how the alliance or the Council defines terrorists. Disregarding the fact that I actually believe in their ideology, and to a lesser extent, their methodology (though it is exercised with far too much frequency), I'd rather work with them instead of ignorant, bumbling, and incompetent buffoons who prefer to stick their head in the sand. I may have had many opportunities to return to the alliance. But I would never have taken any of them.

It would mean going back to being second-guessed and judged by idiots who are limited in their understanding and incapable of actually doing anything to prepare for the Reapers. 

Besides, crimes and laws are made by whoever's in power. They're not universal truths. In the eyes of the Council, I'm guilty of committing a crime. I however, could care less about that crime and the Council. I have no guilt or remorse at all. In fact, I have nothing but pride for working for Cerberus.

[JamesFaith]

StreetMagic wrote...

The only reason it's not in here is because of "new players", but if you're so concerned about new players, don't bother making a multi game epic with recurring characters and saved game imports.

I disagree with that.

Original idea of trial was planned FOR new players to give them chance to choose some variables for ME3 story. Old players already knew these events and had saved characters with these choices.

Two main problems with this introducing trial idea were unrelated choices and their number.

Trial was about Arrival / cooperation with Cerberus. When you can implement Ashley/Kaidan choice through some answer about Horizon, how would you relevantly asked about Wrex? Or Rachni? Or rescue/sacrifacing Destiny Ascencion?  All of these are old news already solved before ME1 and ME2.

And second problem is with number of choices. We have 13 squadmates who can die in SM. Only this result in 13 questions. Then add Collector base, Geth Heretics choice and others and result would be half hour long dialog which only recapitulates known informations for old players.

So I'm personally against trial idea. In ME1 we got only short talk and then dived right to battle on Edem Prime - longers talks came later on Citadel. In ME2 we got destruction of Normandy and fights with robots - longer talks came later in shuttle. So why jump right to action in ME3 is sudenly so big problem?

[JamesFaith]

StreetMagic wrote...


Neither ME1 or ME2's intros are anything like this one. I already illustrated how much you could roleplay just within the first 5 minutes of ME1 alone. Jumping into action is not roleplaying. It's not bad action - but I expect more from a series known for roleplaying.

That "short talk" before Eden Prime sets the stage for some big issues that will keep cropping up in the game. You have some room to comment on human centrism with Pressly, room to be more independent from Anderson, lines that let you express negative or positive opinions on the Council, lines that talk about your Psyche Profile/Origin story, lines that display your callousness or concern for soldiers' lives. They manage to let you say a lot with very little.

Small talks in ME1 are primary introduction to new game universe in form of short dialogs. And in third volume such introduction wasn´t fitting - only new players would need it, which again speak against you argument that it was erased because of new players.

And half hour long dialog recapitulating old events at the begining of the game would be unbearable for many players - both old and new ones.

[AlexMBrennan]

I don't care how the alliance or the Council defines terrorists.

Yeah, that's not how law works - seriously, what is it with all the pro-vigilantism people on BSN? Nations make the law, and people get judged accordingly - is that so hard to get into your head?

Besides, crimes and laws are made by whoever's in power. They're not universal truths. In the eyes of the Council, I'm guilty of committing a crime. I however, could care less about that crime and the Council. I have no guilt or remorse at all. In fact, I have nothing but pride for working for Cerberus.

Apparently it is. How come you haven't been arrested yet for breaking all the laws that you don't agree with? Or do you only apply that philosophy to video games?

If you still can't see your delsiusions, replace Cerberus with real world terrorists: Do you think the US would let Gitmo detainees go because the prisoners felt that the US didn't do enough about certain issues in, say, Afghanistan?

The only difference is that Cerberus has shiny white uniforms, and the player has to work with them and will thus invent reasons why working with them is alright.

It would mean going back to being second-guessed and judged by idiots who are limited in their understanding and incapable of actually doing anything to prepare for the Reapers

And arguably they were right in doing so*, but you can't see that because Shepard is the protagonist and hence any vague vision will turn out to be a 100% accurate prediction of things to come; if the council was to act on every vision some nutjob claimed to have had they'd never get anything done.

Remember, throughout all of Me1, Shepard never finds any hard evidence or makes any recordings of potentially incriminating conversations - all you get is visions which Shepard doesn't even understand. By ME2, all the evidence had been destroyed.

By the way, this is called "argument from personal experience"

* Prior to Sovereign's attack in ME1, but since Shepard work with space!Bin-Laden (without even calling a trusted friend to confirm any of it) is about the Collectors and not prepare for the Reapers you can't use it against them here.

[JamesFaith]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think I do need it, because my Shepard changed. When that happens, it's a brave new world once again. I need to become acquainted with why things are playing out a certain way.  I'd like to know why it is that Anderson says I "owe him" many times. Why I'm saluting Hackett at the mere mention of Mars and Dr. T'soni, when the rest of the message is static. What happened that made these guys such powerful influences in the space of six months, where I'd do anything for them, no matter how vague their orders are? Sounds like an interesting story, worthy of at least some small talk options at least.

And all of these is completel irrelevant for trial you are demanding here becuase they wouldn't give you explanations, they would ask you questions.

[Fixers0]

At the bare minium the opening should have been moved to Arcuturus. Then have a montage of some Vids regarding Shepard's arrest, Angry citizins Goverments declaring martial law, civil unrest as the Reaper invasion draws near. The opening text crawl follows, and then the screen cuts directly to Court room where Shepard is having hard time defending him/her self, suddenly the trial is suspended, bla,bla,bla Reapers invade, Shepard  and Anderson flee on the Normandy.

[JamesFaith]

StreetMagic wrote...

Maybe if you wrote it, it'd be that way. There's all kinds of ways to write something that makes room for explanations and getting acquainted with the setting. Some of it need not even be in a "trial" per se, but on the way there or in the lobby. There's all kinds of ways to get in touch with these characters without all of it presented in some formal proceeding. The actual trial might just be the icing on the cake. Or whatever. There are many ways to write it.

Which doesn't change what I wrote. Things you want to be answer wouldn't be answered during trial you demand in innitial post. 

I have no problem with some small talk. I consider idea of trial non-functional because it wouldn't fulfill its planned informative purpose.

[AlexMBrennan]

[ipad, can't edit]
And the only reason we *know* the Reapers are coming is the omniscient space POV which Shepard never saw. To resolve this conflict between what the player knows and what Shepard knows, we invent reasons why Shepard was right all along. I believe it's called "rationalisation.

[shodiswe]

I think it would have helepd to have a trial on earth, and perhaps walk the streets of earth, meet some people, get attached.
Recive a reason to want to save Earth beyond our RL reason of being born here. But an actual in game reason.
In game Earth isn't our Earth.

If they really wanted us to care about that kid and the people on earth then they should have given us more incentives.
Also, I'm pretty sure some people would have enjoyed checking out Biowares version of a future Earth.

(before it all got wrecked)


Perhaps meet that british officer who might have wanted to know mroe about the Reapers before they hit. So that he knows how to fight them better or at least understand their methods better.
There you could make a choice, tell him, share intel, or tell him to talk to the hand!

Modifié par shodiswe, 21 septembre 2013 - 04:09 .

[NRieh]

Even if they had no time ( or money, or both) to write a proper trial ( and, yes, it's possible - remember KOTOR2 trial, one of the few things it had done right), they could've added some files, sent via mail or revealed on Liara's SB terminal. That 'you're reinstated' message from Hackett was so poorly done. I mean - anything that bridges you from ME2, ESPECIALLY if you did not play the 'Arrival' and 'LotsB'.

ME1->ME2 were absolutely seamless. While to get some sense from prologue, one need to play two DLCs (Arrival, LotSB), read a novel (Anders not in Council, Kai Leng) and browse Vega's comics ( just to have a clue, why da hell this big guy behaves like best buddy with your Shep).

[Lhawke]

It was something I was looking forward to. I expected at the very least a summing up. It would have been a great opportunity for tim to get a bit of revenge by releasing some of the surveillance of Shepard on the SR2.
The worst outcome would have been extradition to the batarian homeworld. The best, Shepard retired to the same place Major Kyle went to. They could also have made it skippable as well so you didn't have to watch it if you didn't want to.

It would have been better to have a trial interrupted by reapers than watching that idiotic defence committee who seemed to be waiting for Shepard to perform a magic trick.
Prior to that the forced friendliness to everyone. The lame renegade response to Kaidan and Ashley. I couldn't believe that this was the end result of all that waiting.

It would have been great to be able to have had a pro alliance or anti alliance shepard.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I don't like the entire idea of Arrival, nor do I like the trial idea. The trial turns into a bloody mess. What was the point? Did it add anything to the story? No it did not. All it did was tell you "The reapers are coming." We knew that. They could have done that without "Arrival."

But you knew there was going to be no way to defeat them conventionally.

[CynicalShep]

It would've been as frustrating as the "ah, yes, Reapers" moment and most people would be mad that they didn't get the last word before the Reapers attacked. Just imagine: "You worked with terrorists!", "You faked your own death!", "You killed batarians because of a myth!", blah blah.

[Kataphrut94]

Knowing Bioware, giving Shepard the last word during the trial is exactly what they would let you do. Just as the Reapers show up, you'd get a Renegade interrupt or something similar to point them out, go "ah, yes Reapers" in the smuggest voice that Meer and Hale can deliver, and then the actual introduction happens. It would be satisfying, fan-pleasing, and it should not happen under any circumstances. The last thing you want to do is pander at a moment like that, particularly when all you're doing is vindicating the awful go-nowhere writing of Mass Effect 2.

Speaking of which, I've seen a lot of proposed ideas for this trial and it sounds like all people want is the reverse of how ME2 forced you to work with Cerberus. Where that game gave you a whole bunch of meaningless Paragon options to defy the Illusive Man before being railroaded, this one would give you a whole bunch of meaningless Renegade options to defy the Alliance before being railroaded. It's probably for the best that they simply drop the pretense and put everyone back on the winning team.

[Kataphrut94]

They are once the Reapers actually turn up and Cerberus loose the only benefit they had going for them. While the Alliance is organizing defences, engaging in skirmishes, building the Crucible and basically spearheading the galactic alliance, what are Cerberus doing? Being disruptive, useless and falling in with the Reapers.

Also, remember who it was that took down Sovereign in the first place, and who would've also ultimately stopped the Collectors regardless of what Shepard does in ME2 (see Paragon Lost, and the fact that one ship could not possibly take on Earth). Basically, Cerberus have never been as important as the later games want you to think, and the vast majority of their work caused more problems than it solved.

Modifié par Kataphrut94, 21 septembre 2013 - 11:25 .

[AlanC9]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

[ipad, can't edit]
And the only reason we *know* the Reapers are coming is the omniscient space POV which Shepard never saw. To resolve this conflict between what the player knows and what Shepard knows, we invent reasons why Shepard was right all along. I believe it's called "rationalisation.

I don't see a real problem with that. Bio established that Shepard believed the Reapers were coming without any real evidence for that belief. Since Shepard is going to believe it, we might as well try and get in character.

As for the trial, it always sounded like a snooze to me. I guess Bio agreed.

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 septembre 2013 - 11:39 .

[OdanUrr]

There should've been a Trial at the beginning..

Agreed.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 22 septembre 2013 - 12:48 .

[shodiswe]

They could have fast forwarded to the invasion after the trial and some earth adventures.


My real issue however, was priority earth, it needed more work.

Modifié par shodiswe, 22 septembre 2013 - 07:59 .