[quote]Cyberstrike nTo wrote...
You forget one thing: OPINIONS ARE NOT FACTS! I read your agruments and you do not present any facts I can presents facts that are:
[/quote]
I never presented them as facts. However the way you are presenting them (as inherently wrong) is not factual either. You're essentially making something that is made out as an opinion and subjective into something that must have a factual premise (when it can't). Beyond the fact that Cerberus' actions took place, you're claiming that I am factually wrong for supporting them. I have to ask how that's even possible. Factually (as in knowledgeable concrete fact) being incorrect over an idea is an oxymoron.
[quote]
Cerebus kidnapped, children and operated on them to try and turn them into a super biotics. From
ME2 and
ME: Acension novel.[/quote]
Yes. And if there was a real, tangible benefit that outweighed the cost, then I'd support it. As it is, this actually was the case. Cerberus achieved their goal. They succeeded. And as for Teltin, this was a rogue facility operating beyond TIM's authorization. This is factual.
How does the fact that Cerberus did these experiments make me 'factually wrong'?
[quote]
Cerebus lost control of rachni and thorian creepers and planed to use them as shock-troops. From
ME1/2
[/quote]
Yep. Never denied this. But I see the logic and merit in doing so. That it backfired is another thing, and Miranda even says that the Rachni were abandoned when their intelligence was affirmed. As to the Creepers, that experiment failed by no fault of Cerberus. As I recall, Shepard killing the Thorian was what set it off. Anywho, I took the bribe from the scientists and let them go on their way in ME1.
How am I 'factually wrong' for supporting this?
[quote]
Cerebus lost control of Shepard's clone. From
ME3: The Citadel
[/quote]
A clone that was disregarded and non-functional until a former agent who who disapproved of their cooperation with aliens awoke him. That's hardly Cerberus' fault. In fact, it's really nothing to do with Cerberus beyond the fact that they created the clone.
This isn't even the proper usage of a fact. You're just telling me what they did. Is this supposed to be a supporting point to your argument?
[quote]
Cerebus captured and tortured Paul Greyson. From
ME: Retubition novel
[/quote]
Yes. And rightfully so. He betrayed them and fell into a red sand addiction. And Cerberus was testing the plausibility and capability of Reaper tech implementation into a human. I don't approve, mainly because of the direction the experiments were heading in. It was doomed to leading to a lot more indoctrinated in the end unfortunately. But if they actually learned something about indoctrination that could lead to the uncovery of a weakness to use against the Reapers, then I support it. In fact, this whole experiment was a success. This shows Cerberus' competence.
How am I 'factually wrong' for supporting this?
[quote]
Cerebus lost control of EDI (thanks to Joker) and
Normanday SR-2. From
ME2
[/quote]
Yes. This isn't a support against Cerberus. This is a support for Joker unshakling EDI. That said, I'd still take them back to Cerberus if I could. This whole event had nothing to do with Cerberus, and everything due to the fact that the Collectors were attacking the Normandy.
This is not a reputable fact against Cerberus. It's just a statement of what happened. Is Cerberus somehow bad or failures since this happened?
[quote]
Cerebus killed assaassinated a Terra Firma party leader. From
ME: Ascension
[/quote]
Looks to me like you're naming off Cerberus' successes. This is a fact, but it supports my point more than yours. You're not even telling me how this point (or any point) is wrong factually, simply stating a fact. Do you have an argument or not?
[quote]
Cerebus started a war with the quarians. From
ME: Ascension novel.
[/quote]
No they didn't. This is not a fact. They had a conflict with the flotilla, but they didn't start a war. Anyways, you're not explaining how this is 'factually wrong'.
[quote]
Cerebus nearly unleashed a AI/Human hybrid on the galaxy. From
ME2: Overlord DLC.
[/quote]
Finally, the only failure I've as yet seen here that can be directly attributed to Cerberus alone. Yes, this was a problem, an experiment that went wrong. It was also extraneous considering that the Geth on their own were willing to combat the Reapers with the rest of the galaxy. But I still support the premise of the experiment; to find a way to create a VI/organic hybrid that is capable of being used as shock troops. Sounds useful.
How am I 'factually wrong' for supporting this?
[quote]
The Illisiuve Man was indoctated. From
ME: Evolution comic book series.
[/quote]
Now you're just jumping to false conclusion that really has no support beyond the comic. This has not been regarded as true or not. I'm inclined to disbelieve that it is true. I believe the Reapers existence was enough to convince TIM to create a group that would serve as technological, military, and political watchdog group for humanity whose purpose was to preserve them in a harsh galaxy.
How am I 'factually wrong' for supporting this?
[quote]
You can agree with their ideology and methods and that is great, but as they say you're entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your facts.
[/quote]
What 'facts' have I presented? What are your 'facts'? I've seen you do nothing but list off things that happened. Are they supposed to be 'factually wrong' or something? Or morally wrong? You're not even stating the parameters to your argument.
[quote]
I called you a fool because you don't read or seem to respect to my opinions based on facts presented in the games, DLC, novels, and comics.
[/quote]
Where and when did I say I didn't respect your right to hold your opinion? And what are your 'facts' supposed to support? You're not even stating what you're arguing for or against, just that I'm somehow factually wrong for holding an opinion (that I never tried to impose as more than an opinion.)
[quote]
You dismiss that people like me you think and see Cerebus as a stupid evil racist group are fools you buy into the games, DLC, novels, and comic as Alliance propganda.
[/quote]
I never stated this. I may feel it, and I have a right to feel it though. It's an opinion. Am I somehow factually wrong for holding it?
I also never (I repeat; never) stated anything in the games, dlc, novels, comics, etc. as alliance propaganda.
You're making up lies now. You're factually incorrect in saying that I said these things, and you're intentionally saying them.
You're lying.
[quote]
So IMHO you're a blind fool.
[/quote]
Ok then.
You know, many people thought Ghandi was a blind fool. And Christ. And MLK. And Lincoln. And Washington. And Franklin. And Jefferson. And FDR. And JFK. And Obama.
[quote]
That is my opinion of your stance is that your a fool believing that Cerebus was ever able to win the war against the Reaper by themselves they weren't even if the TIM was not indocternated.
[/quote]
I never took this position. This is a lie.
You are factually incorrect here.
[quote]
I've seen nothing that backs up your opionion in the lore of the
Mass Effect franchise across any media. You think that your factless opinions are facts and that everyone who disagrees with you is a blind fool. I called you out on it.
[/quote]
No I didn't, nor did I ever claim my opinions as objective. As a relativist, I am pretty much opposed to the idea that anything that isn't physically concrete is objective. I never stated anyone was a blind fool. I can feel that they are, but I'm not claiming factual or intellectual supremacy by doing so.
You called me out on what you wanted to call me out on, regardless of the baseless foundation of your stance. I get that you don't like my opinion, but making up a position that I never claimed to support, and then proclaiming that I support it is a lie and sophism.
I'm calling you out for lying and claiming false entitlement against me for doing so.
[quote]
If you were offended, well I'm sorry that you were offended.
Welcome to the internet.
[/quote]
More like irritated and amused. You presented a terrible argument that I rationally deconstructed, and then you had the gall to publically lie on this thread about me, to me. That's rather offensive, and you were completely unjustified in doing this, especially for the sake of trying to beat down my argument by attacking me personally instead of actually arguing against my argument (which you have failed to do).
[quote]
Now I know what it's like to take an unpopular stance I've been there myself but I was stating my opinion of you're opinion. I will say you got a quad to take the stance that your taking but I still think you're a fool for believing in a group that was destined to be the villians to be anything else.[/quote]
Your opinion of my opinion (and the fact that you made up an opinion for me just so you could attack me for it) is irrelevant. I don't mind that they were narratively destined to be villains. But there are more than one type of villain. I, in fact, don't view them as the ultimate antagonists, but as tragic villains and well-intentioned extremists that tried to do something good, something noble, and failed along the way. I admire and greatly respect their vision, much more so than my supposed 'allies' who I view as incompetent, self-righteous, arrogant cowards unwilling to do their job.
[quote]
I'm near blind towards the Alliance and the Concil because while they have their faults and problems but in the end they at least tried to help Shepard stop the Reapers whereas Cerebus didn't and never were going to in the first place.[/quote]
I disagree completely. I believe Cerberus would have been Shepard's most useful ally had they not succumbed to indoctrination. I had to drag the alliance and the Council, kicking and screaming, to accomplish the goal of stopping the Reapers, a threat that the alliance and the Council were all too content to ignore and wish away. The alliance constantly threw me under the bus for a bone from the Council, who were also content to discard me when I was a 'political liability', only to come begging me to solve their problems and mistakes and save them and claim me as their 'hero' who believed in their goals and ideology, all while quietly making me disappear when I came asking questions about what their actions were regarding the Reapers.
Cerberus meanwhile gave me the most advanced ship in the galaxy, near limitless resources, a hyper-competent and very skilled crew, very highly advanced technology, a clear and concise mission, freedom to exercise the mission in whatever manner I saw fit, and they gave me my life back. And the woman, Miranda, who gave me my life back gave me reason to live, something to fight for, to live for, to love. And I know that while they failed, they at least failed standing up and trying. They weren't content, no matter their purpose of agenda, to let the galaxy burn. They were determined to take a stand against the Reapers, with or without my help, no matter their methods. I have far more respect for them than anyone in the alliance or the Council.
[quote]So it's the blind leading the near blind.
[/quote]
You can call it that if you like. Philosophically, that's all anything ever is.
Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 22 septembre 2013 - 03:31 .
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