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[MassivelyEffective0730]

wright1978 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

One thing about being a specte.

It's a blank check to the council. Even if Shepard accept's it, he is still a human military officer and can be held accountable by his own institution. The council have no say in how the military he belongs to choose to treat him. They can apply pressure. But they cannot interfere directly with how other races choose to conduct internal disciplinary hearings.

Shepard is essentially the labourer of two masters. It mean's he has access to more information networks. And Shepard working for the council put's humanity in good standing so they largely turn a blind eye. But Shepard is alliance navy and not wholely above the regulation's that bind him.

If he was..... He'd have told Ash, or she'd have told Kaiden in ME1.....

"I'm a spectre. I can totally do you".

To which the response would be.

"Well I'm not a spectre so the only one who wouldn't get in trouble.... is you".

As of ME1 yes Shep has 2 masters and it is clearly shown to be a problem.
As of ME2 i see it as death liberates him from any ties to the Alliance.
If the Alliance don't accept he died then they are welcome to try and court marshall him for deriliction of duty i suppose.

Ditto. Any ties he had with the alliance were cut when he died. Their treatment of him after his death soured his opinion of them pretty fast.

[Kataphrut94]

wright1978 wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Aside from the main problem with the trial (that it would be a waste of time and a circle-jerk), it doesn't really seem like it would make sense from a story perspective. Mass Effect 3 opens with the Reaper invasion, six months after Shepard would have been arrested. It seems to me like the trial would have happened much, much earlier, not on the verge of the invasion. I mean, 300'000 manslaughter count and/or confirmed doomsday theorist with ties to a terrorist organization doesn't really leave much room for reasonable doubt.

I don't agree that a trial/hearing would have been a waste of time. It would great place to establish/re-establish player characterisation by allowing them to respond to charges. Certainly would have been 10 billion times better than the railroaded piece of drivel that currently serves as an intro to ME3.

But it won't matter though. Whatever your character says or does, the end result will still be the same; cleared of all charges by way of the court being vaporised. I don't know what people are specifically hoping for, but a trial implies juries, procedure, representation and a whole lot of depth and background that simply isn't necessary for what is essentially a throaway scene. Whereas say what you will about the writing of ME3s actual intro, but it establishes things quickly, hits the ground running and sets the scene for the rest of the game without descending into time padding. The execution was definitely below average, but the idea was solid.

I've seen some of the ideas for trials that people have proposed; I've already said that a reverse-repeat of Mass Effect 2's futile Paragon defiance of Cerberus is a poor idea, but it looks to me like all people really want is choice and continuity for the sake of it. I have nothing against a trial, but the opening is not the time for it. And if it is a trial for the events of ME2, it should have happened then.

[wright1978]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

But it won't matter though. Whatever your character says or does, the end result will still be the same; cleared of all charges by way of the court being vaporised. I don't know what people are specifically hoping for, but a trial implies juries, procedure, representation and a whole lot of depth and background that simply isn't necessary for what is essentially a throaway scene. Whereas say what you will about the writing of ME3s actual intro, but it establishes things quickly, hits the ground running and sets the scene for the rest of the game without descending into time padding. The execution was definitely below average, but the idea was solid.

I've seen some of the ideas for trials that people have proposed; I've already said that a reverse-repeat of Mass Effect 2's futile Paragon defiance of Cerberus is a poor idea, but it looks to me like all people really want is choice and continuity for the sake of it. I have nothing against a trial, but the opening is not the time for it. And if it is a trial for the events of ME2, it should have happened then.

 I personally  found the ability to be confrontational/accepting of Cerberus in ME2 to be very important from a roleplaying perspective. So it all does depend on whether you value player characterisation because player characterisation doesn't mean that characterisation will stop the reaper attack. It's about continuity and setting the tone of the realtionship with the group you are working for. Me3's intro might as well have just opened up with reapers attacking from moment 1 because the garbage they used made no sense from a continuity point of view.

[Kataphrut94]

The option of being confrontational with Cerberus was kind of necessary, given that they were villains in the first game and are generally (to put it diplomatically) a controversial bunch. Whereas it was probably thought that switching back to the Alliance didn't need any elaboration since Shepard (and by extension, the player) already has an in-universe history with them and a motivation for being on their side.

Also, remember that the Cerberus business was not a popular decision at the time; it's only nowadays that I see people getting nostalgic about working for them, and half of them sound like they have no idea what they're talking about. Regardless, this is getting away from my original point, which is that a trial is more trouble than it's worth. There is no reason you can't include roleplaying and characterisation options in the actual intro; I only said the execution was bad, not the idea.

[KaiserShep]

David's point about the length of the trial is pretty much key. How long can it be to give the audience a properly fleshed-out trial regarding Shepard's actions without becoming a wearisome introduction to the next story? How short can it be before it becomes a disposable scene that might as well not exist? All things considered, it's best that it simply not be there. An action scifi story, be it a game or something else, can't start with dreary court proceedings. It would very likely be worse than what we got. The first few minutes of the game sets the tone for everything to follow. This isn't exactly A Few Good Men in space.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 septembre 2013 - 02:41 .

[wright1978]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

The option of being confrontational with Cerberus was kind of necessary, given that they were villains in the first game and are generally (to put it diplomatically) a controversial bunch. Whereas it was probably thought that switching back to the Alliance didn't need any elaboration since Shepard (and by extension, the player) already has an in-universe history with them and a motivation for being on their side.

Also, remember that the Cerberus business was not a popular decision at the time; it's only nowadays that I see people getting nostalgic about working for them, and half of them sound like they have no idea what they're talking about. Regardless, this is getting away from my original point, which is that a trial is more trouble than it's worth. There is no reason you can't include roleplaying and characterisation options in the actual intro; I only said the execution was bad, not the idea.

Except due to ME2 they'd allowed the player to distance themselves from them & express some pretty unflattering views of them. Not to forget Casey's 'you'll be able to roleplay against the Alliance' in pre ME3 bluster.

As far as i'm concerned a tribunal sequence could have worked & was hinted at by Arrival. As you say equally if they'd provided proper roleplaying dialogue in the intro & my Shep had been able to vent his frustration at being locked up by the Alliance i wouldn't have minded its absence.

[Iakus]

This is what happens when writers charge ahead without a clue how issues are going to be resolved later just because it sounds awesome.

[Fixers0]

The Solution to repairing Mass Effect 3's opening lies within rewritting Mass Effect 2 as a whole, just invalidate everything beyond the First game and the Revalation novel and try it again Bioware.

[Baihu1983]

Didn't some footage of the trial get released? Maybe in one of the trailers with someone question Shepards state of mind?

[conjmk]

It would have definitely been interesting, like Halo 2 when the Arbiter goes on trial and is forced to build his way up.

[DJBare]

I think I know why they took the trial out, I begin to lose patience at the beginning as it stands now, forgive me for sounding contradictory here, I would have liked the trial, but something else at the beginning would have to be tossed out, otherwise the whole beginning would have been tediously long, I rush after the we get out of the building, no interest in what's happening on earth, just want to get to Mars and get on with the story.

[David7204]

You do not begin a game with mundane conversations with random citizens.

[David7204]

Basic reasoning is the authority. The beginning of the game needs to introduce the characters, the setting, and perhaps most importantly, the gameplay. Having Shepard walk around and talk to random people in a tragically misguided attempt to build a 'connection' to Earth would be boring and pointless.

[David7204]

Do you have anything to say against my points? Any attempt at all?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David hasn't played very many RPG's it seems. Or any video games for that matter. Like Mass Effect.

[xAmilli0n]

DJBare wrote...

I think I know why they took the trial
out, I begin to lose patience at the beginning as it stands now, forgive
me for sounding contradictory here, I would have liked the trial, but
something else at the beginning would have to be tossed out, otherwise
the whole beginning would have been tediously long, I rush after the we
get out of the building, no interest in what's happening on earth, just
want to get to Mars and get on with the story.

I agree, making the beginning any longer would have been pretty frustrating after the first few times you go through it.  Though it would have been nice to at least hear about the trial.

David7204 wrote...

Basic reasoning is the authority. The beginning of the game needs to introduce the characters, the setting, and perhaps most importantly, the gameplay. Having Shepard walk around and talk to random people in a tragically misguided attempt to build a 'connection' to Earth would be boring and pointless.

Gotta agree.  It feels like we got cheated out of the trial, but it really wouldn't have fit well in the beginning, or add more to the story.

[KaiserShep]

David's right though. Thing is, you're not going to connect to earth in even 10-15 minutes if you don't already care about it after two entire games. I guess this is a fault of the trilogy in total, and maybe the writers miscalculated the assumption that players would automatically care about our own planet, but a trial and earthling NPC's isn't going to do the trick.

[Hainkpe]

I remember when there was a certainty that ME3 would begin with this very scenario. I once had a bet on it. I won. At least, I think I did?

I think someone owes me money!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

KaiserShep wrote...

David's right though. Thing is, you're not going to connect to earth in even 10-15 minutes if you don't already care about it after two entire games. I guess this is a fault of the trilogy in total, and maybe the writers miscalculated the assumption that players would automatically care about our own planet, but a trial and earthling NPC's isn't going to do the trick.

Let's put it this way; I'm not really trying to connect with the Earth so much as I'm trying to connect to the story. I'm more interested in making a setting where that can backtrack on the prior story and confirm decisions, attitudes, etc, (as well as giving new players the ability to actually define key decisions for their own benefit). I do think a brief examination of Earth, when it isn't under attack, would be a great idea.

Like the intro's to DA:O. You have the missions through Highever, the Circle, Orzammar, Denerim, and the Brecilian Wood, talking and interacting with the universe well before the action starts. It adds to the worldbuilding and immersion into the story.

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...

Basic reasoning is the authority. The beginning of the game needs to introduce the characters, the setting, and perhaps most importantly, the gameplay. Having Shepard walk around and talk to random people in a tragically misguided attempt to build a 'connection' to Earth would be boring and pointless.

You've just successfully described the first few mintues of ME1, congratulations.

[David7204]

The time for that is past. The story of ME 3 is the story of the Reapers invading. That's the tone, and the tone needs to be consistent.