154 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Filament wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound like Sabariel is arguing against the very fact of sexual dimorphism, but the removal of the opportunity to get around that fact via fantasy race tetramorphism.

But 1) Sabariel's objection to sexual dimorphism is questionable. He/she seems to think that height differences are deeply undesirable in some way, as if they imply an inherent inequality extending beyond mere physical height. And 2) Sabariel also seems to think that failing to opt for "fantasy race tetramorphism" is in some way offensive. Many here do not agree. It would be valid for BioWare to make height work differently in Dragon Age than it does in reality, certainly, but it is also valid for them to make it work the same.

[Sabariel]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Yes, I'm sure that was merely a comment.

And you still haven't explained why any fictional species in a video game should adhere to reality... especially a reality in which such crappy notions exist.

I haven't explained that because you never gave a reason that the fictional species should deviate from reality.

But I'll give you a reason. Maybe you'll give me one back.

One reason is that it lowers the level of suspension of disbelief necessary to engage the product. When art imitates life, the art can better go about asking the questions that need to be asked.

Dragon Age is not a sociopolitical commentary, which means that deviating from reality would require an ingame-value to it that overcomes to inherent cost of having art not imitate life. We've yet to see one.

Really? It's a video game about magic, demons, dragons, elves, horned beings, killer rock beasts, and you're talking about suspension of disbelief? This is the same crap people drag out over and over again. Dragons? Yup, great! Magic? Okay! Demons? Neato! A fictional species where the females are taller than the males? HELL NO! AGH! THAT'S JUST TOO UNBELIVABLE!! I'M MELTING! MELTING! OH, THE WORLD! THE WORLD!!!!! A female PC that's actually taller than some of her male LIs? Repeat above.

Modifié par Sabariel, 21 septembre 2013 - 03:13 .

[Ryzaki]

Playing DA2 and Aveline and Merrill look to be the same height.

(Which is kind of lulz worthy come to think of it).

[Sabariel]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

And, once again for good measure, I did not say if BW did this consciouslly or not.

Although you clearly feel that this is why the change was made, whether we consciously did it or not.

So lets break this down (and to other people, I'm in no mood to deal with off topic nonsense in this thread at this time).

You say that females were not made any taller. Is this actually true, or did they they still scale and become taller themselves? (I actually don't know the answer to this question, but you have stated that the female elves remained unchanged, so I am curious if this is certain).

What do you want me to say, exactly?

I am saying that you're taking a very specific perspective on what motivated this change, and I'm asking if that may not actually be the case.

If you're looking for a "you're right" or even a "you could be right", you aren't going to get it. So many times have I heard "I/It wasn't motivated by sexism!" only to learn later that, yes, un/concious sexism had wormed its way in there.

[sandalisthemaker]

Ryzaki wrote...

Playing DA2 and Aveline and Merrill look to be the same height.

(Which is kind of lulz worthy come to think of it).

And yet, I think Merrill's head is larger than Aveline's or Isabela's due to her proportions.

[Dominus]

Really? It's a video game about magic, demons, dragons, elves, horned beings, killer rock beasts, and you're talking about suspension of disbelief?

Dragon Age does dance between fantasy and reality, and where that line is drawn is up to them. Some things are going to be more footed in reality. A Giant Screeching Demon, not so much...

HELL NO! AGH! THAT'S JUST TOO UNBELIVABLE!! I'M MELTING! MELTING! OH, THE WORLD! THE WORLD!!!!!

Well, I've officially lost my personal interest in jellybeans. Good luck with your topic.

[Ryzaki]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Playing DA2 and Aveline and Merrill look to be the same height.

(Which is kind of lulz worthy come to think of it).

And yet, I think Merrill's head is larger than Aveline's or Isabela's due to her proportions.

XD

Must be Merrill's ego inflating it.

[Sabariel]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Playing DA2 and Aveline and Merrill look to be the same height.

(Which is kind of lulz worthy come to think of it).

And yet, I think Merrill's head is larger than Aveline's or Isabela's due to her proportions.

I stood Merrill right next to Aveline, Isabela, and FemHawke in the game. She was shorter than all three.

[kinderschlager]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I personally would actually argue that reality should be the default state for any creation, and that deviations occur from there.

That's one perspective and it's fine and all. Though there are other species where the female is larger than the male.

That doesn't give an indication that something *should* or *should not* be the case.

spiders.....

[Sabariel]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Really? It's a video game about magic, demons, dragons, elves, horned beings, killer rock beasts, and you're talking about suspension of disbelief? This is the same crap people drag out over and over again. Dragons? Yup, great! Magic? Okay! Demons? Neato! A fictional species where the females are taller than the males? HELL NO! AGH! THAT'S JUST TOO UNBELIVABLE!! I'M MELTING! MELTING! OH, THE WORLD! THE WORLD!!!!! A female PC that's actually taller than some of her male LIs? Repeat above.

I'm looking at this and wondering if it's even worth the trouble.

To be honest, you seem to be acting unreasonable.

Then content yourself with labeling me a loony and move on.

[AresKeith]

I'm pretty sure Bioware made the Female qunari taller than Human Males

[In Exile]

Sabariel wrote...
If you're looking for a "you're right" or even a "you could be right", you aren't going to get it. So many times have I heard "I/It wasn't motivated by sexism!" only to learn later that, yes, un/concious sexism had wormed its way in there.

I think right now it would be good if we could settle the contested point about female elf height vs. female human height. Your argument has a lot more support behind it if it's true that female elves are shorter. 

[crystalballer]

Sabariel wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

And, once again for good measure, I did not say if BW did this consciouslly or not.

Although you clearly feel that this is why the change was made, whether we consciously did it or not.

So lets break this down (and to other people, I'm in no mood to deal with off topic nonsense in this thread at this time).

You say that females were not made any taller. Is this actually true, or did they they still scale and become taller themselves? (I actually don't know the answer to this question, but you have stated that the female elves remained unchanged, so I am curious if this is certain).

What do you want me to say, exactly?

I am saying that you're taking a very specific perspective on what motivated this change, and I'm asking if that may not actually be the case.

If you're looking for a "you're right" or even a "you could be right", you aren't going to get it. So many times have I heard "I/It wasn't motivated by sexism!" only to learn later that, yes, un/concious sexism had wormed its way in there.

How can this be a discussion when one party is so jaded? You aren't even open to the possibility that it has nothing to do with your discrimination conspiracy theories.

[Nightwriter]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Think it's a matter of extra work vs a lot of extra work.

Keeping in mind I know little about the process (and so probably shouldn't even be speaking on the matter, but why should I let a little matter of not knowing what I'm talking about stop me): for everything you want to apply to every race or person -- a certain armor or animation -- you must go through the steps of fitting it to all the unique models. The more unique models, the more work you have to do.

Skyrim did height sliders but that doesn't seem to be something everyone does yet. Skyrim also had a bit of an advantage in that it had no cutscenes. Imagine having to re-do the same cutscene multiple times to accomodate all height awkwardness.

So changing the camera so it does the same thing it should almost already do for male qunari is a lot of extra work? Really?

And it's one more unique model. I mean using your arguement they shouldn't have a dwarf or elf protagonist (unless elf females and human females are the same size now.) and qunari males pose the same issue.

They already have to do that thanks to multiple race protagonists.

Hey, I'd love more unique bodies. Anything that adds diversity or immersion to the game is something I'm all for. And one of my pet peeves is non-athletic characters having the same bodies as soldiers or warriors.

But it sounds like they traded DA:O's fat people and such for unique dwarf, qunari, and elf body models in DA2.

As for it being "one more unique model" -- I remember people complaining that Fenris didn't appear shirtless in his romance scene. Gaider came on and told a story about how he'd wanted the tech staff to make him a unique body with the lyrium markings and everything, but the techies had sighed and asked him "what do you want us to cut?" to which Gaider said "oh, bother. never mind" or some such. So yes apparently space is at a premium. Yeah, I know, I didn't know things were that tight either.

As for camera angles -- no idea. It could get quite tedious, yes, if you stack up all the cutscenes in the whole game. Not something I'm much informed about. But I know from personal experience that having to fit the same armor to three different body models is a pain in the ass. Now imagine doing that for every armor in the game. Ay yi yi.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 21 septembre 2013 - 03:19 .

[Nefla]

I think Qunari women should be taller than human/elf/dwarf men too, no need to be hostile about it though.

[The Antagonist]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Really? It's a video game about magic, demons, dragons, elves, horned beings, killer rock beasts, and you're talking about suspension of disbelief? This is the same crap people drag out over and over again. Dragons? Yup, great! Magic? Okay! Demons? Neato! A fictional species where the females are taller than the males? HELL NO! AGH! THAT'S JUST TOO UNBELIVABLE!! I'M MELTING! MELTING! OH, THE WORLD! THE WORLD!!!!! A female PC that's actually taller than some of her male LIs? Repeat above.

I'm looking at this and wondering if it's even worth the trouble.

To be honest, you seem to be acting unreasonable.

I just did the same and Merril is the same height as Isabela and Aveline.

[Allan Schumacher]

Sabariel's objection to sexual dimorphism is questionable.

Though, that someone would like to be taller is fine. Especially between different species (since it seems the issue is that female <race X> is not taller than male <race Y>)