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[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...

For the record, I disagree with Lobsel on this particular issue. After thinking about it, I don't think that the location of the original Dales matters much, and that the Dalish people as a whole have fallen into a sort of mental stagnancy by just keeping the lost lore and not trying to seek out more of it. The Dales are a goal too low; what I want is a restored Arlathan. It doesn't have to be in the same spot, just whatever spot would be best. A homeland is more important than where the land is.

Not that I don't want to see Orlais' power crushed for the next ten thousand years, but the Dales physically are less important than what they were in every other way: a new homeland.

I don't think the dalish can afford taking any land from the humans without turning every human against them (again). They will have to find inhabited land somewhere, preferably somewhere discret where they have time to build a homeland without conflicts in the border. There is uncharted land west and south of Thedas where no one would look, but I wonder whether those places are hospitable enough to actually support them.

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

For the record, I disagree with Lobsel on this particular issue. After thinking about it, I don't think that the location of the original Dales matters much, and that the Dalish people as a whole have fallen into a sort of mental stagnancy by just keeping the lost lore and not trying to seek out more of it. The Dales are a goal too low; what I want is a restored Arlathan. It doesn't have to be in the same spot, just whatever spot would be best. A homeland is more important than where the land is.

Not that I don't want to see Orlais' power crushed for the next ten thousand years, but the Dales physically are less important than what they were in every other way: a new homeland.

I don't think the dalish can afford taking any land from the humans without turning every human against them (again). They will have to find inhabited land somewhere, preferably somewhere discret where they have time to build a homeland without conflicts in the border. There is uncharted land west and south of Thedas where no one would look, but I wonder whether those places are hospitable enough to actually support them.

Then it needs to be land "vacated" by the current metaphysical crises. Of course, if the Dales wind up unoccupied, no reason not to wander back in.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, let's hope that the elves can stay out of the line of fire on this Veil tear, because opportunity may knock.

It would still be all humans that remain against all dalish that remain. It's better they stay out of trouble.

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, let's hope that the elves can stay out of the line of fire on this Veil tear, because opportunity may knock.

It would still be all humans that remain against all dalish that remain. It's better they stay out of trouble.

We shall see. It's only a possibility, but it's a compelling one.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

For the record, I disagree with Lobsel on this particular issue. After thinking about it, I don't think that the location of the original Dales matters much, and that the Dalish people as a whole have fallen into a sort of mental stagnancy by just keeping the lost lore and not trying to seek out more of it. The Dales are a goal too low; what I want is a restored Arlathan. It doesn't have to be in the same spot, just whatever spot would be best. A homeland is more important than where the land is.

Not that I don't want to see Orlais' power crushed for the next ten thousand years, but the Dales physically are less important than what they were in every other way: a new homeland.

I don't think the dalish can afford taking any land from the humans without turning every human against them (again). They will have to find inhabited land somewhere, preferably somewhere discret where they have time to build a homeland without conflicts in the border. There is uncharted land west and south of Thedas where no one would look, but I wonder whether those places are hospitable enough to actually support them.

Then it needs to be land "vacated" by the current metaphysical crises. Of course, if the Dales wind up unoccupied, no reason not to wander back in.

That could work, but it would have to be handled carefully, and the dalish are not the masters of diplomacy, to be honest.

[Xilizhra]

That could work, but it would have to be handled carefully, and the dalish are not the masters of diplomacy, to be honest.

Then I'll Inquisit everyone who needs inquisiting in said negotiations.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, let's hope that the elves can stay out of the line of fire on this Veil tear, because opportunity may knock.

It would still be all humans that remain against all dalish that remain. It's better they stay out of trouble.

We shall see. It's only a possibility, but it's a compelling one.

Extermination of humanity so the elves can thrive? How so?

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, let's hope that the elves can stay out of the line of fire on this Veil tear, because opportunity may knock.

It would still be all humans that remain against all dalish that remain. It's better they stay out of trouble.

We shall see. It's only a possibility, but it's a compelling one.

Extermination of humanity so the elves can thrive? How so?

I'm not going to exterminate humanity unless they all suddenly become the Sabrae clan and make a rabid lemming charge against me for staking a land claim.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I was under the impression it was Anders' madness that set it off.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elves suffering in Alienages for more untold centuries (as we saw with the orphanage massacre in Denerim during the last purge) while the People continue to get hunted down by templars, or the elves getting back their own homeland, where this suffering can stop happening. Yeah, I've thought about it.

All the elves that suffered for untold centuries are dead. They suffered, they diied, and ethnic cleasing in the Dales won't bring them back from the dead. 

Ethnic cleasing doesn't make the suffering won't stop. All the human corpses that you've just created, all the children you'll end up killing and the women you'll end up raping will just be the impentus behind another army bearing down on the Dales. And the end result of this is either the elves being crushed again and subject to more centuries of abuse, or 

Tne entire nation of Orlais would have a cause to eradicate the newly founded Dales from Thedas, and frankly the other Andrastian nations wouldn't be wrong to join them. 

There have been rumors of an elven rebellion in occupied Dales since Asunder, and it seems an elven rebellion is already in the works based on the tidbits from the new novel. I'm not interested in keeping the status quo; you can keep saying 'ethnic cleansing' because I suggested relocation for the humans occupying the elven homeland while ignoring the monstrosity of what elves have to endure all across Thedas, but I see the opportunity to help an elven rebellion reclaim the Dales from the Orlesian as the only viable solution in a society where nothing has changed for the elves in hundreds of years. Elven heroes and Dalish participation in the Blights meant nothing in the long run; the elves need a homeland where they can be safe, and I see no reason why my Dalish Inquisitor wouldn't help give that to them.

[wcholcombe]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elves suffering in Alienages for more untold centuries (as we saw with the orphanage massacre in Denerim during the last purge) while the People continue to get hunted down by templars, or the elves getting back their own homeland, where this suffering can stop happening. Yeah, I've thought about it.

All the elves that suffered for untold centuries are dead. They suffered, they diied, and ethnic cleasing in the Dales won't bring them back from the dead. 

Ethnic cleasing doesn't make the suffering won't stop. All the human corpses that you've just created, all the children you'll end up killing and the women you'll end up raping will just be the impentus behind another army bearing down on the Dales. And the end result of this is either the elves being crushed again and subject to more centuries of abuse, or 

Tne entire nation of Orlais would have a cause to eradicate the newly founded Dales from Thedas, and frankly the other Andrastian nations wouldn't be wrong to join them. 

There have been rumors of an elven rebellion in occupied Dales since Asunder, and it seems an elven rebellion is already in the works based on the tidbits from the new novel. I'm not interested in keeping the status quo; you can keep saying 'ethnic cleansing' because I suggested relocation for the humans occupying the elven homeland while ignoring the monstrosity of what elves have to endure all across Thedas, but I see the opportunity to help an elven rebellion reclaim the Dales from the Orlesian as the only viable solution in a society where nothing has changed for the elves in hundreds of years. Elven heroes and Dalish participation in the Blights meant nothing in the long run; the elves need a homeland where they can be safe, and I see no reason why my Dalish Inquisitor wouldn't help give that to them.

1. There are rumors of an elvish uprising-It is also mentioned that it could abd in the words of Wynne is a lie to get Celine out of the capitol.
2. I don't recall them saying it was in the dales, just to the east.
3. It is probably just city elves and the dalish have no involvement
4. The tidbits point at the support of the city elves may be Celine's only hope of winning.  Not tgat they are going to break away.
5. I am sorry, but the elven uprising will be long over before we play Inquisition.  They aren't going to put us in a position to suddenly create an elvish nation.
6. Just because we can be an elf doesn't mean we can be dalish.  

[Xilizhra]

6. Just because we can be an elf doesn't mean we can be dalish.

I'm almost certain that it's confirmed that we can be. In fact, I think the elf mage character automatically is.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

6. Just because we can be an elf doesn't mean we can be dalish.

I'm almost certain that it's confirmed that we can be. In fact, I think the elf mage character automatically is.

Confirmed might be too strong a word, but that has been implied.

[azarhal]

Xilizhra wrote...

6. Just because we can be an elf doesn't mean we can be dalish.

I'm almost certain that it's confirmed that we can be. In fact, I think the elf mage character automatically is.

Indeed, elf mage in DAI was confirmed to be Dalish.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There have been rumors of an elven rebellion in occupied Dales since Asunder, and it seems an elven rebellion is already in the works based on the tidbits from the new novel. I'm not interested in keeping the status quo; you can keep saying 'ethnic cleansing' because I suggested relocation for the humans occupying the elven homeland while ignoring the monstrosity of what elves have to endure all across Thedas, but I see the opportunity to help an elven rebellion reclaim the Dales from the Orlesian as the only viable solution in a society where nothing has changed for the elves in hundreds of years. Elven heroes and Dalish participation in the Blights meant nothing in the long run; the elves need a homeland where they can be safe, and I see no reason why my Dalish Inquisitor wouldn't help give that to them.

I keep saying ethnic cleasing because you suggested (i) committing a recognized - and horrible - crime against humanity as an alternative to (ii) massacring every last living human in the Dales.

I'm not "ignoring" how the elves suffered. I'm on the record as supporting an elven uprising, a city elf homeland, and the current unrest in the Dales as a way of achieving that. But there is no comparison between (i) recognizing that the elves have suffered (ii) recognizing that the elves deserve a homeland (iii) recognizing that, because of the population distribution in Thedas, it will require a military uprising against humans and reaching an agreement were land is seized from a human kingdom and (iv) openly advocating for genocide.

You can't hide behind prevoius injustices when you are proposing comitting crimes against humanity. 

Do you want me to list the names of the people who last suggested forced relocation as a political movement? You want a Tear of Trails in Thedas and you're talking about it as a good thing! 

[Ieolus]

In Exile wrote...

I keep saying ethnic cleasing because you suggested (i) committing a recognized - and horrible - crime against humanity as an alternative to (ii) massacring every last living human in the Dales.

I think you are making a mistake of bringing real life morals into the Thedas setting.  Who says in Thedas people have any qualms about forcably relocating another race against their will?  In Tevinter slavery still exists, everywhere Mages are locked up "for their own protection", etc.

It isn't a horrible, and certainly not recognized, crime against "humanity" in this Universe.

Or are you in-character right now?

[Gwydden]

Ieolus wrote...
I think you are making a mistake of bringing real life morals into the Thedas setting.  Who says in Thedas people have any qualms about forcably relocating another race against their will?  In Tevinter slavery still exists, everywhere Mages are locked up "for their own protection", etc.

It isn't a horrible, and certainly not recognized, crime against "humanity" in this Universe.

We don't live in Thedas.

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

In Exile wrote...

All the elves that suffered for untold centuries are dead. They suffered, they diied, and ethnic cleasing in the Dales won't bring them back from the dead. 

Ethnic cleasing doesn't make the suffering won't stop. All the human corpses that you've just created, all the children you'll end up killing and the women you'll end up raping will just be the impentus behind another army bearing down on the Dales. And the end result of this is either the elves being crushed again and subject to more centuries of abuse, or 

Tne entire nation of Orlais would have a cause to eradicate the newly founded Dales from Thedas, and frankly the other Andrastian nations wouldn't be wrong to join them. 

The elves can't afford any more failed wars against the humans. Third's the charm: they lose again, and they will be wiped out. And given their historial and the much greater power and number of the human nations, they will lose if they engage in a conflict with them. 

With a Dalish Inquisitor supporting the elven rebellion (which is the scenario I've been addressing), I don't think the elves will automatically be wiped out. I think they could succeed in establishing an elven mecca where elves can truly be free.

[Ieolus]

Gwydden wrote...

Ieolus wrote...
I think you are making a mistake of bringing real life morals into the Thedas setting.  Who says in Thedas people have any qualms about forcably relocating another race against their will?  In Tevinter slavery still exists, everywhere Mages are locked up "for their own protection", etc.

It isn't a horrible, and certainly not recognized, crime against "humanity" in this Universe.

We don't live in Thedas.

Are you serious?  You guys are discussing Elves right?

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...
With a Dalish Inquisitor supporting the elven rebellion (which is the scenario I've been addressing), I don't think the elves will automatically be wiped out. I think they could succeed in establishing an elven mecca where elves can truly be free.

I said they would be wiped out if they lose a conflict against humans. If they manage to avoid or at lest limit conflict, they might be fine.

[Gwydden]

Ieolus wrote...
Are you serious?  You guys are discussing Elves right?

We all have RL morals. We can't judge Thedas by a different mural compass when the Thedosians themselves don't agree on what is right or isn't. I'm sure many humans would have something to say to the current population of the Dales being forcefully relocated to make way for some elven pretenders.

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

1. There are rumors of an elvish uprising-It is also mentioned that it could abd in the words of Wynne is a lie to get Celine out of the capitol.

Which is why this is speculation.

wcholcombe wrote...

2. I don't recall them saying it was in the dales, just to the east.

It was the former elven capital of the Dales.

wcholcombe wrote...

3. It is probably just city elves and the dalish have no involvement

The Dalish might be having their gathering in the Dales at this period in time; I don't think it's as impossible as you seem to think it is.

wcholcombe wrote...

4. The tidbits point at the support of the city elves may be Celine's only hope of winning.  Not tgat they are going to break away.

I would rather support the elves, rather than Celene or Gaspard.

wcholcombe wrote...

5. I am sorry, but the elven uprising will be long over before we play Inquisition.  They aren't going to put us in a position to suddenly create an elvish nation.

Speculation on your part. No different than my speculation about a Dalish Inquisitor possibly having a chance to liberate the Dales from centuries of Orlesian occupation.

wcholcombe wrote...

6. Just because we can be an elf doesn't mean we can be dalish.  

I'm addressing what fans have pointed out was said at PAX.

[Xilizhra]

I confess, LobselVith, I'd be interested in seeing you answer In Exile's last question.

[Ieolus]

Gwydden wrote...

Ieolus wrote...
Are you serious?  You guys are discussing Elves right?

We all have RL morals. We can't judge Thedas by a different mural compass when the Thedosians themselves don't agree on what is right or isn't. I'm sure many humans would have something to say to the current population of the Dales being forcefully relocated to make way for some elven pretenders.

Its a roleplaying game, in a different Universe, with different morals.  Real life really shouldn't enter to this extent, when it conflicts with Game life, as it would in this case.  Do you honestly think that most humans in Thedas would have any problem whatsoever if the Chantry called an Exalted March for the extermination of all Elves, everywhere?

[LobselVith8]

Ieolus wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

We don't live in Thedas. 

Are you serious?  You guys are discussing Elves right? 

Yes. I think relocation is less horrible than centuries of purging - i.e. killing elven men, women, and children of the Alienage. I'm not interested in an elven protagonist who does nothing about the status quo, nor do I care that some fans who favor Andrastian humans find it horrible that I'd prefer to put an end to systematic killings of elven populations by relocating humans out of an occupied kingdom, if an elven rebellion is successful in reclaiming the Dales.