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[ianvillan]

Ieolus wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Ieolus wrote...
Are you serious?  You guys are discussing Elves right?

We all have RL morals. We can't judge Thedas by a different mural compass when the Thedosians themselves don't agree on what is right or isn't. I'm sure many humans would have something to say to the current population of the Dales being forcefully relocated to make way for some elven pretenders.

Its a roleplaying game, in a different Universe, with different morals.  Real life really shouldn't enter to this extent, when it conflicts with Game life, as it would in this case.  Do you honestly think that most humans in Thedas would have any problem whatsoever if the Chantry called an Exalted March for the extermination of all Elves, everywhere?

Actually a lot might be against it because it will mean the loss of their servants and the elves who do the menial and unwanted jobs, and it will then be that they will have to hire humans to do them and that means treating them well and paying them better.

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

We don't live in Thedas. 

Are you serious?  You guys are discussing Elves right? 

Yes. I think relocation is less horrible than centuries of purging - i.e. killing elven men, women, and children of the Alienage. I'm not interested in an elven protagonist who does nothing about the status quo, nor do I care that some fans who favor Andrastian humans find it horrible that I'd prefer to put an end to systematic killings of elven populations by relocating humans out of an occupied kingdom, if an elven rebellion is successful in reclaiming the Dales.

Thedas isn't covered by some kind of human carpet. There should be relatively vacant land somewhere on the continent to begin rebuilding. Destroy as many oppressors as you want, but I don't think it's a good idea to evict anyone who hasn't participated in said oppression.

[Ieolus]

ianvillan wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Ieolus wrote...
Are you serious?  You guys are discussing Elves right?

We all have RL morals. We can't judge Thedas by a different mural compass when the Thedosians themselves don't agree on what is right or isn't. I'm sure many humans would have something to say to the current population of the Dales being forcefully relocated to make way for some elven pretenders.

Its a roleplaying game, in a different Universe, with different morals.  Real life really shouldn't enter to this extent, when it conflicts with Game life, as it would in this case.  Do you honestly think that most humans in Thedas would have any problem whatsoever if the Chantry called an Exalted March for the extermination of all Elves, everywhere?

Actually a lot might be against it because it will mean the loss of their servants and the elves who do the menial and unwanted jobs, and it will then be that they will have to hire humans to do them and that means treating them well and paying them better.

Against it in the most selfish way possible... would they rise up and rebel against the Chantry to stop it?  Lets be honest now...

[cjones91]

Personally I think the elves should strike when everyone is weakened or help the Inquisitor in return for being given back the Dales or some other plot of land.

[Gwydden]

Ieolus wrote...
Its a roleplaying game, in a different Universe, with different morals.  Real life really shouldn't enter to this extent, when it conflicts with Game life, as it would in this case.  Do you honestly think that most humans in Thedas would have any problem whatsoever if the Chantry called an Exalted March for the extermination of all Elves, everywhere?

Certainly, in a world like Thedas, people rarely gives a damn about what happens to those not belonging to their particular group. But I'd like to think that af external observers a who have managed to develop some sort of global conciusness, we can judge what is right and what is not in Thedas with slightly less bias.

[ianvillan]

Ieolus wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Ieolus wrote...
Are you serious?  You guys are discussing Elves right?

We all have RL morals. We can't judge Thedas by a different mural compass when the Thedosians themselves don't agree on what is right or isn't. I'm sure many humans would have something to say to the current population of the Dales being forcefully relocated to make way for some elven pretenders.

Its a roleplaying game, in a different Universe, with different morals.  Real life really shouldn't enter to this extent, when it conflicts with Game life, as it would in this case.  Do you honestly think that most humans in Thedas would have any problem whatsoever if the Chantry called an Exalted March for the extermination of all Elves, everywhere?

Actually a lot might be against it because it will mean the loss of their servants and the elves who do the menial and unwanted jobs, and it will then be that they will have to hire humans to do them and that means treating them well and paying them better.

Against it in the most selfish way possible... would they rise up and rebel against the Chantry to stop it?  Lets be honest now...

If most of the nobles who relies on the elves as sort of a slave race and would not want their easy lives made more difficult or more expensive will put a lot of pressure especially financial pressure on the Chantry. now they would probably agree to an exulted march to put the elves in their place but would not allow the total extermination of them.

[cjones91]

Ieolus wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Ieolus wrote...
Are you serious?  You guys are discussing Elves right?

We all have RL morals. We can't judge Thedas by a different mural compass when the Thedosians themselves don't agree on what is right or isn't. I'm sure many humans would have something to say to the current population of the Dales being forcefully relocated to make way for some elven pretenders.

Its a roleplaying game, in a different Universe, with different morals.  Real life really shouldn't enter to this extent, when it conflicts with Game life, as it would in this case.  Do you honestly think that most humans in Thedas would have any problem whatsoever if the Chantry called an Exalted March for the extermination of all Elves, everywhere?

Actually a lot might be against it because it will mean the loss of their servants and the elves who do the menial and unwanted jobs, and it will then be that they will have to hire humans to do them and that means treating them well and paying them better.

Against it in the most selfish way possible... would they rise up and rebel against the Chantry to stop it?  Lets be honest now...

The people of Thedas are so brainwashed by the Chantry that they willingly support all mages being opressed and killed at a whim.Not to mention mages are in the same group of being treated like sh*t as the elves are, so the Chantry could commit genocide on both of them and the people would support it.

[Wulfram]

If the Chantry was all that good at brainwashing there wouldn't be this big war going on.

But we're not roleplaying here, or at least I'm not, so the views of the people of Thedas don't stop us from saying that something is wrong even if that view would be uncommon in Thedas.

[Ieolus]

Gwydden wrote...

Ieolus wrote...
Its a roleplaying game, in a different Universe, with different morals.  Real life really shouldn't enter to this extent, when it conflicts with Game life, as it would in this case.  Do you honestly think that most humans in Thedas would have any problem whatsoever if the Chantry called an Exalted March for the extermination of all Elves, everywhere?

Certainly, in a world like Thedas, people rarely gives a damn about what happens to those not belonging to their particular group. But I'd like to think that af external observers a who have managed to develop some sort of global conciusness, we can judge what is right and what is not in Thedas with slightly less bias.

I guess I am lost as to the point of the discussion then... because I thought some people were talking about wanting the Elves to have their own homeland, and that forcing the current inhabitants of the Dales off was a way to accomplish that.

Who cares what real world sensibilities thinks about that move?  Of course that is bad in real life, how is that even up for discussion?

[wcholcombe]

azarhal wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

6. Just because we can be an elf doesn't mean we can be dalish.

I'm almost certain that it's confirmed that we can be. In fact, I think the elf mage character automatically is.

Indeed, elf mage in DAI was confirmed to be Dalish.

Ok, this should be interesting.  I am really curious how a dalish gets put in charge of the inquisition?  Especially since the Dalish tend to keep themselves apart from humanity.  What was a dalish tribe wandering through the middle of the peace negotiations when the Veil teared?  Sorry, just most of the speculation I have seen involves the inquisitor being the only survivor of the tearing of the veil, which occurs at the templar/mage peace negotiations.

[Ieolus]

ianvillan wrote...

If most of the nobles who relies on the elves as sort of a slave race and would not want their easy lives made more difficult or more expensive will put a lot of pressure especially financial pressure on the Chantry. now they would probably agree to an exulted march to put the elves in their place but would not allow the total extermination of them.

I think you are seriously overestimating the people of Thedas, maybe even overlaying how the real world works (applying financial pressure).  These people are more medieval, way more religious, and the vast majority are just simple peasants.
Why would the nobles, atleast the crappy ones, care at all who does their chores for them?  Maybe it is easier to mistreat an elf than a member of your own race, but again these are crappy people.

[azarhal]

cjones91 wrote...

The people of Thedas are so brainwashed by the Chantry that they willingly support all mages being opressed and killed at a whim.Not to mention mages are in the same group of being treated like sh*t as the elves are, so the Chantry could commit genocide on both of them and the people would support it.

The people of Thedas were killing mages in drove after the 1st blight years before the Chantry ever existed. The people of Thedas are a bunch of uneducated ignorant idiots who fear their own shadows. The Chantry has nothing to do with it.

[Ieolus]

Wulfram wrote...

If the Chantry was all that good at brainwashing there wouldn't be this big war going on.

From Asunder's epilogue:

"Lambert slammed the door shut and allowed himself a smile.  He imagined the Divine reading that [letter].  Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless-nothing more than a bunch of old women armed with only their words.  What would she do?  Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different?"

The Lord Seeker (Lambert) is counting on that brainwashing as leverage to break away from the Chantry.  That brianwashing is pretty much complete.

Wulfram wrote...
But we're not roleplaying here, or at least I'm not, so the views of the people of Thedas don't stop us from saying that something is wrong even if that view would be uncommon in Thedas.

How does it even need to be said?  Of course genocide and ethnic cleansing is wrong, in real life. lol

[Gwydden]

Ieolus wrote...
I guess I am lost as to the point of the discussion then... because I thought some people were talking about wanting the Elves to have their own homeland, and that forcing the current inhabitants of the Dales off was a way to accomplish that.

Who cares what real world sensibilities thinks about that move?  Of course that is bad in real life, how is that even up for discussion?

It's not really about real world sensibilities. People live there. Those people certainly wouldn't like and would be prejudiced if such a retaking of the Dales was attempted by the elves. All I'm saying is that pro-dalish who support shouldn't take the moral highground, since they obviusly favor the elves considerably over the humans and therefore, it's fine that ones have to be screwed in the others' benefit. Simply put, there's nothing moral about that.

[Dean_the_Young]

cjones91 wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Ieolus wrote...
Are you serious?  You guys are discussing Elves right?

We all have RL morals. We can't judge Thedas by a different mural compass when the Thedosians themselves don't agree on what is right or isn't. I'm sure many humans would have something to say to the current population of the Dales being forcefully relocated to make way for some elven pretenders.

Its a roleplaying game, in a different Universe, with different morals.  Real life really shouldn't enter to this extent, when it conflicts with Game life, as it would in this case.  Do you honestly think that most humans in Thedas would have any problem whatsoever if the Chantry called an Exalted March for the extermination of all Elves, everywhere?

Actually a lot might be against it because it will mean the loss of their servants and the elves who do the menial and unwanted jobs, and it will then be that they will have to hire humans to do them and that means treating them well and paying them better.

Against it in the most selfish way possible... would they rise up and rebel against the Chantry to stop it?  Lets be honest now...

The people of Thedas are so brainwashed by the Chantry that they willingly support all mages being opressed and killed at a whim.

What's brainwashed about it? Pointing to established history, and the abuses of the Tevinter and mageocracies are pretty well established, is hardly irrational. It's not like the Chantry lies about how any mage, if stressed out and in a personal moment of weakness, can become a WMD in minutes. That's the actual truth of the DA setting.

There's less irrationality about magephobia in Thedas (where mages actually can do most of the things they are feared to be capable of) than in the average anti-nuclear movement IRL (where people have fears and preconceptions about radiation that only have a passing acquaintance with reality).

Not to mention mages are in the same group of being treated like sh*t as the elves are, so the Chantry could commit genocide on both of them and the people would support it.

Except (a) the two groups aren't viewed or treated the same by the Chantry and the Templars, and ( the people have demonstratedly had differing and contradictory views about both groups.

[Xilizhra]

What's brainwashed about it? Pointing to established history, and the abuses of the Tevinter and mageocracies are pretty well established, is hardly irrational. It's not like the Chantry lies about how any mage, if stressed out and in a personal moment of weakness, can become a WMD in minutes. That's the actual truth of the DA setting.

If stressed out, in a moment of personal weakness, and in an area of thin Veil. The Chantry always leaves out the last part.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes. I think relocation is less horrible than centuries of purging - i.e. killing elven men, women, and children of the Alienage. I'm not interested in an elven protagonist who does nothing about the status quo, nor do I care that some fans who favor Andrastian humans find it horrible that I'd prefer to put an end to systematic killings of elven populations by relocating humans out of an occupied kingdom, if an elven rebellion is successful in reclaiming the Dales. 

Thedas isn't covered by some kind of human carpet. There should be relatively vacant land somewhere on the continent to begin rebuilding. Destroy as many oppressors as you want, but I don't think it's a good idea to evict anyone who hasn't participated in said oppression. 

It seems like there's already a rebellion in occupied Dales as it is, which is where this line of discussion originated from. If elves in occupied Dales are trying to topple the Orlesian regime, then my Dalish Inquisitor is going to fully support that movement. The status quo should be abolished; elves deserve a land where they can live free, where they won't be killed en mass for protesting their mistreatment and oppression.

And humans seem to have conquered much of Thedas, except for some areas of the darkspawn riddled Anderfels.

[Beerfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

What's brainwashed about it? Pointing to established history, and the abuses of the Tevinter and mageocracies are pretty well established, is hardly irrational. It's not like the Chantry lies about how any mage, if stressed out and in a personal moment of weakness, can become a WMD in minutes. That's the actual truth of the DA setting.

If stressed out, in a moment of personal weakness, and in an area of thin Veil. The Chantry always leaves out the last part.

Seems the veil is pretty darn thin all over the world in that case because mage possessions happen all over the place. 

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes. I think relocation is less horrible than centuries of purging - i.e. killing elven men, women, and children of the Alienage. I'm not interested in an elven protagonist who does nothing about the status quo, nor do I care that some fans who favor Andrastian humans find it horrible that I'd prefer to put an end to systematic killings of elven populations by relocating humans out of an occupied kingdom, if an elven rebellion is successful in reclaiming the Dales. 

Thedas isn't covered by some kind of human carpet. There should be relatively vacant land somewhere on the continent to begin rebuilding. Destroy as many oppressors as you want, but I don't think it's a good idea to evict anyone who hasn't participated in said oppression. 

It seems like there's already a rebellion in occupied Dales as it is, which is where this line of discussion originated from. If elves in occupied Dales are trying to topple the Orlesian regime, then my Dalish Inquisitor is going to fully support that movement. The status quo should be abolished; elves deserve a land where they can live free, where they won't be killed en mass for protesting their mistreatment and oppression.

And humans seem to have conquered much of Thedas, except for some areas of the darkspawn riddled Anderfels.

This is true, but the only people who should be harmed by this are the ones actively participating in oppression. We shouldn't expel humans whose only crime was having evil ancestors.

Of course, if the Dales had an elven government and religious policy set up... the humans might wind up leaving anyway without any expulsion being necessary, but pulling this off in whatever way would require the least war would be ideal.

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It seems like there's already a rebellion in occupied Dales as it is, which is where this line of discussion originated from. If elves in occupied Dales are trying to topple the Orlesian regime, then my Dalish Inquisitor is going to fully support that movement. The status quo should be abolished; elves deserve a land where they can live free, where they won't be killed en mass for protesting their mistreatment and oppression.

And humans seem to have conquered much of Thedas, except for some areas of the darkspawn riddled Anderfels.

Again, I disagree that elves are sistematically mistreated and opressed. Would you care to give specific examples of this sort of thing happening?

Also, I don't see the elves trying to retake the Dales ending in nothing but tragedy for everyone, them included. It's really a bad, terrible idea.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
This is true, but the only people who should be harmed by this are the ones actively participating in oppression. We shouldn't expel humans whose only crime was having evil ancestors.

I didn't want to say anything, but I'm having trouble containing myself, so I hope you can excuse this post.

You don't know whether the ancestors of the people living in the Dales interacted at all with the elves who used to live there. Even if they somehow participated in the Dalish-Orlesian War, we don't know who started said war, and it is just as likely (more likely even) that the dalish are to blame for beginning that particular conflict.

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
This is true, but the only people who should be harmed by this are the ones actively participating in oppression. We shouldn't expel humans whose only crime was having evil ancestors.

I didn't want to say anything, but I'm having trouble containing myself, so I hope you can excuse this post.

You don't know whether the ancestors of the people living in the Dales interacted at all with the elves who used to live there. Even if they somehow participated in the Dalish-Orlesian War, we don't know who started said war, and it is just as likely (more likely even) that the dalish are to blame for beginning that particular conflict.

The conquest, occupation and genocide was evil. There's no way to get around that.

Orlais will fall, I'd just rather the fallout hit as few people as possible.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
The conquest, occupation and genocide was evil. There's no way to get around that.

So what were they supposed to do, if the dalish did start the war? Simply pushing them back behind their borders, counting on them never attempting something similar again, after they raided and murdered on barely defended towns and sacked the holy city of every non Tevinter human? They should have known that assaulting Val Royeaux would bring every Andrastian on them. Actions come with consequences.

Xilizhra wrote...
Orlais will fall, I'd just rather the fallout hit as few people as possible.

And you'll push the world into a dark age by destroying the main center of culture and civilization in Thedas out of some sense of misguided revenge?

[Palidane]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Orlais will fall, I'd just rather the fallout hit as few people as possible.

And you'll push the world into a dark age by destroying the main center of culture and civilization in Thedas out of some sense of misguided revenge?

One, Orlais' culture and civilization is equal parts brutal and frivolous, and has no place in an ethical society.
Two, misguided revenge? I think you mean justice.

[Gwydden]

Palidane wrote...
One, Orlais' culture and civilization is equal parts brutal and frivolous, and has no place in an ethical society.

Ethical by what standards? Different historical periods have, by their own definition, their own morals and societal aspects that often can't be put away if you want to achieve any actual development. Ancient Rome was also brutal and frivolous and warmongering, but if it hadn't existed, Western Civilization would have probably not gotten as far as it has and keeps doing.

Palidane wrote...
Two, misguided revenge? I think you mean justice.

Semantics. The Orlesians did nothing to the Dalish that the dalish wouldn't have done if it had been they winning the war. Humans are just the convenient culprits of the elves everytime they want to laid their misery on someone else's back, but the truth simply comes down to this: elves lost a series of conflicts with different human groups. Losing their own realms and culture was simpli a natural consequence of that fact, not the humans being intently mean on the elves.

Modifié par Gwydden, 23 septembre 2013 - 06:49 .