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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Orlais under Celene is also patron of the arts and education. There's more to their culture than just "evil elf killers."

[Palidane]

Gwydden wrote...
Ethical by what standards? Different historical periods have, by their own definition, their own morals and societal aspects that often can't be put away if you want to achieve any actual development. Ancient Rome was also brutal and frivolous and warmongering, but if it hadn't existed, Western Civilization would have probably not gotten as far as it has and keeps doing.

Rome's time came and went. We needed Orlais to fight Tevinter, and we needed Orlais to fight the blights and the Qunari. But Orlais' usefulness is rapidly coming to an end. We were able to overlook Orlais' faults because the good outweighed the bad, but that is no longer true. Orlais is past it's prime, with nobles who are too focused on their "Grand Game" to see the world crashing down around them. They are warmongers, brutal and cruel, while also foolish, shallow, vapid and pathetic.

Semantics. The Orlesians did nothing to the Dalish that the dalish wouldn't have done if it had been they winning the war. Humans are just the convenient culprits of the elves everytime they want to laid their misery on someone else's back, but the truth simply comes down to this: elves lost a series of conflicts with different human groups. Losing their own realms and culture was simpli a natural consequence of that fact, not the humans being intently mean on the elves.

The elves may have started the war, but genocide was completely unjustified. If Orlais fought and won against Nevarra, I guarantee you they wouldn't murder half the population, deport the rest, then occupy their land and try to erase all signs of Nevarran culture. War has rules, there is conduct that is expected.

But since they were fighting elves, who are "different" ,it's all okay, right?

[ianvillan]

Palidane wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
Ethical by what standards? Different historical periods have, by their own definition, their own morals and societal aspects that often can't be put away if you want to achieve any actual development. Ancient Rome was also brutal and frivolous and warmongering, but if it hadn't existed, Western Civilization would have probably not gotten as far as it has and keeps doing.

Rome's time came and went. We needed Orlais to fight Tevinter, and we needed Orlais to fight the blights and the Qunari. But Orlais' usefulness is rapidly coming to an end. We were able to overlook Orlais' faults because the good outweighed the bad, but that is no longer true. Orlais is past it's prime, with nobles who are too focused on their "Grand Game" to see the world crashing down around them. They are warmongers, brutal and cruel, while also foolish, shallow, vapid and pathetic.

Semantics. The Orlesians did nothing to the Dalish that the dalish wouldn't have done if it had been they winning the war. Humans are just the convenient culprits of the elves everytime they want to laid their misery on someone else's back, but the truth simply comes down to this: elves lost a series of conflicts with different human groups. Losing their own realms and culture was simpli a natural consequence of that fact, not the humans being intently mean on the elves.

The elves may have started the war, but genocide was completely unjustified. If Orlais fought and won against Nevarra, I guarantee you they wouldn't murder half the population, deport the rest, then occupy their land and try to erase all signs of Nevarran culture. War has rules, there is conduct that is expected.

But since they were fighting elves, who are "different" ,it's all okay, right?

To me it seems the Chantry believe they are actually doing the Elves a favour, they have freed them from a primitive lifestyle and religion and showed them the true glory of the maker, gave them a place in a true civilisation.

If the Elves would just be grateful stay in their place and appreciate all that the Chantry has given them then they will be better off.

[billy the squid]

Palidane wrote...

Semantics. The Orlesians did nothing to the Dalish that the dalish wouldn't have done if it had been they winning the war. Humans are just the convenient culprits of the elves everytime they want to laid their misery on someone else's back, but the truth simply comes down to this: elves lost a series of conflicts with different human groups. Losing their own realms and culture was simpli a natural consequence of that fact, not the humans being intently mean on the elves.

The elves may have started the war, but genocide was completely unjustified. If Orlais fought and won against Nevarra, I guarantee you they wouldn't murder half the population, deport the rest, then occupy their land and try to erase all signs of Nevarran culture. War has rules, there is conduct that is expected.

But since they were fighting elves, who are "different" ,it's all okay, right?

Hahahahahaha xD Wow, what world are you living in?

Go take a look at Julius Ceaser's conquest of Gaul, the 100 years war and the wars of religion in central Europe, the supposed age of chivalry. Or the Nazis clashing with the Soviet Union, the Japanese invasion of China and the rape of Nanking. 

I can keep going; there are hundreds of examples where the "rules" were ignored.

Modifié par billy the squid, 23 septembre 2013 - 07:41 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Palidane wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
Ethical by what standards? Different historical periods have, by their own definition, their own morals and societal aspects that often can't be put away if you want to achieve any actual development. Ancient Rome was also brutal and frivolous and warmongering, but if it hadn't existed, Western Civilization would have probably not gotten as far as it has and keeps doing.

Rome's time came and went. We needed Orlais to fight Tevinter, and we needed Orlais to fight the blights and the Qunari. But Orlais' usefulness is rapidly coming to an end. We were able to overlook Orlais' faults because the good outweighed the bad, but that is no longer true. Orlais is past it's prime, with nobles who are too focused on their "Grand Game" to see the world crashing down around them. They are warmongers, brutal and cruel, while also foolish, shallow, vapid and pathetic.

Semantics. The Orlesians did nothing to the Dalish that the dalish wouldn't have done if it had been they winning the war. Humans are just the convenient culprits of the elves everytime they want to laid their misery on someone else's back, but the truth simply comes down to this: elves lost a series of conflicts with different human groups. Losing their own realms and culture was simpli a natural consequence of that fact, not the humans being intently mean on the elves.

The elves may have started the war, but genocide was completely unjustified. If Orlais fought and won against Nevarra, I guarantee you they wouldn't murder half the population, deport the rest, then occupy their land and try to erase all signs of Nevarran culture. War has rules, there is conduct that is expected.

But since they were fighting elves, who are "different" ,it's all okay, right?

Orlais is actually experiencing a renessaince under Celene. They also aren't the only expansionist nation in the history of Thedas. Are you going to want to burn down Nevarra next? Also, neither Tevinter nor the Blights nor the Qunari are gone. So how can their "usefulness" be coming to an end?

Nevarra didn't sack Val'royeaux in any war with Orlais, so they didn't prompt a reaction the same way. But that whole thing aside, you don't actually know that the Orlesians killed "half the population" of Halamshiral and deported the rest. All the Dalish accounts says is that they were driven out.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 septembre 2013 - 08:04 .

[Xilizhra]

So what were they supposed to do, if the dalish did start the war? Simply pushing them back behind their borders, counting on them never attempting something similar again, after they raided and murdered on barely defended towns and sacked the holy city of every non Tevinter human? They should have known that assaulting Val Royeaux would bring every Andrastian on them. Actions come with consequences.

So, too, will the consequences of conquering the Dales be delivered. Enough, at least, to ensure that Orlais can never harm anyone again. Nor will the Chantry be able to.

Orlais is actually experiencing a renessaince under Celene. The extragances of the They also aren't the only expansionist nation in the history of Thedas. Are you going to want to burn down Nevarra next? Also, neither Tevinter nor the Blights nor the Qunari are gone. So how can their "usefulness" be coming to an end?

No need to burn anything down, just remove their army and end their expansion. The qunari will come next.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
So, too, will the consequences of conquering the Dales be delivered. Enough, at least, to ensure that Orlais can never harm anyone again. Nor will the Chantry be able to.

You are avoiding the question. Had the elves won the war, it would have been Orlais that would have been burned to the ground, and I somehow doubt the Dalish would have offered them tha same courtesy of just letting them go elsewhere.

Also, I don't see anyone wanting the dalish to ever answer for their own crimes. I'm not talking about whether they initiated the war with Orlais or not, but about what they've done after that.

Xilizhra wrote...
No need to burn anything down, just remove their army and end their expansion. The qunari will come next.

And with that you've already doomed a country and caused more war, with the other nations fighting over who gets the biggest piece of the now defenseless Orlais. The only reason Ferelden or the dalish are not expansionist groups is because they are not major powers. Orlais, Nevarra, Tevinter and the Qunari are, and for that is inevitable that they will seek to subjugate weaker countries in one way or the other. That is the way the world, every world, works.

[Xilizhra]

You are avoiding the question. Had the elves won the war, it would have been Orlais that would have been burned to the ground, and I somehow doubt the Dalish would have offered them tha same courtesy of just letting them go elsewhere.

Also, I don't see anyone wanting the dalish to ever answer for their own crimes. I'm not talking about whether they initiated the war with Orlais or not, but about what they've done after that.

Miniscule compared to what humans continue to do to elves. Mostly city elves, to be sure, as Dalish are harder to catch, but still.

Also, the Chantry didn't "let" the Dalish go, the Dalish escaped.

And with that you've already doomed a country and caused more war, with the other nations fighting over who gets the biggest piece of the now defenseless Orlais. The only reason Ferelden or the dalish are not expansionist groups is because they are not major powers. Orlais, Nevarra, Tevinter and the Qunari are, and for that is inevitable that they will seek to subjugate weaker countries in one way or the other. That is the way the world, every world, works.

We shall see.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
Miniscule compared to what humans continue to do to elves. Mostly city elves, to be sure, as Dalish are harder to catch, but still.

What do humans continue to do to elves? Give me examples. Here are some of what dalish continue to do to humans, off the top of my head:

• The Dalish Elf origin, where you threaten and possibly kill unarmed human villager simply for coming to close to your camp, set up near their village by the dalish themselves.
• The dalish elves assaulting trade caravans, which actually makes them common bandits.
• They attacked the Clayne without previous provocation, simply because they were human savages and "would have turned on them eventually".

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, the Chantry didn't "let" the Dalish go, the Dalish escaped.

And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales, and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end.
Halamshiral was utterly destroyed, the elves driven out, scattered, left
to survive on goodwill alone.

Modifié par Gwydden, 23 septembre 2013 - 08:44 .

[ianvillan]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Miniscule compared to what humans continue to do to elves. Mostly city elves, to be sure, as Dalish are harder to catch, but still.

What do humans continue to do to elves? Give me examples. Here are some of what dalish continue to do to humans, off the top of my head:

• The Dalish Elf origin, where you threaten and possibly kill unarmed human villager simply for coming to close to your camp, set up near their village by the dalish themselves.
  
• The dalish elves assaulting trade caravans, which actually makes them common bandits.
  They attacked the Clayne without previous provocation, simply because they were human savages and "would have turned on them eventually".

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, the Chantry didn't "let" the Dalish go, the Dalish escaped.

And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales, and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end.
Halamshiral was utterly destroyed, the elves driven out, scattered, left
to survive on goodwill alone.

Be allowed to walk into an alienage and take any female elf to rape.

Templars go into a dalish camp and attack the elves because they refuse to hand over mages which makes them common kidnapers.

Modifié par ianvillan, 23 septembre 2013 - 09:02 .

[Xilizhra]

What do humans continue to do to elves? Give me examples.

Crush them into Alienages and murder them when they start getting uppity. Also the templars will hunt down Dalish Keepers and any human power in the vicinity of a Dalish camp will force them off as quickly as possible.

The Dalish Elf origin, where you threaten and possibly kill unarmed human villager simply for coming to close to your camp, set up near their village by the dalish themselves.

It's in the haunted Brecilian Forest; the village can't be that near.

The dalish elves assaulting trade caravans, which actually makes them common bandits.

Velanna's personal issue.

They attacked the Clayne without previous provocation, simply because they were human savages and "would have turned on them eventually".

The Clayne were, IIRC, mentioned as being highly savage and aggressive by other sources.

And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales, and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end.
Halamshiral was utterly destroyed, the elves driven out, scattered, left
to survive on goodwill alone.

Yes, the ones the Chantry couldn't catch and force into their cities.

[Gwydden]

ianvillan wrote...
Be allowed to walk into an alienage and take any female elf to rape.

It's a fact that nobles can do whatever they want to commoners and get away with little more than a scolding, even if said commoners are humans. Look at Raleigh or Howe, who did pretty much whatever they wanted until they were killed by Leliana and the Warden, respectively.

ianvillan wrote...
Templars go into a dalish camp and attack the elves because they refuse to hand over mages which makes them common kidnapers.

The dalish are within the boundaries of human countries, and as such are subject to said countries' laws in the eyes of law enforcers. Being an apostate is ilegal, therefore what the templars did had absolutely nothing to do with racism.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Velanna's personal issue.

Which started with Velanna and some of her clan retaliating against humans who tried to burn them alive by setting free to the Forest they were making camp at. It's not like the humans were blameless here, and one of them murders a child in response to Velanna's actions later on (when she is deceived about who killed her  group and kidnapped her sister).

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
Crush them into Alienages and murder them when they start getting uppity. Also the templars will hunt down Dalish Keepers and any human power in the vicinity of a Dalish camp will force them off as quickly as possible.

The city elves live in alienages because they want to. It's safer for them there, true, but it's still a choice. Howe murdered elves in the Denerim alienage because he's a murderous bastard and as a noble can get away with it. The templar thing I adressed in my last post.

Xilizhra wrote...
It's in the haunted Brecilian Forest; the village can't be that near.

And that justifies threats of murder or actual murder how?

Xilizhra wrote...
Velanna's personal issue.

Not if you believe Genitivi:

I took the road north from Val Royeaux toward Nevarra with a merchant caravan. A scant two days past the Orlesian
border, we were beset by bandits. They struck without warning from the
cover of the trees, hammering our wagons with arrows, killing most of
the caravan guards instantly. The few who survived the arrow storm drew
their blades and charged into the trees after our attackers. We heard
screams muffled by the forest, and then nothing more of those men.
After a long silence, the bandits appeared. Elves covered in tattoos
and dressed in hides, they looted all the supplies and valuables they
could carry from the merchants and disappeared back into the trees.

Xilizhra wrote...
The Clayne were, IIRC, mentioned as being highly savage and aggressive by other sources.

You're aware the Clayne are the same people who founded the kingdom of Ferelden, right? And even if they were generally agressive, does that justify attacking them in their lands when they have done nothing to you? Wouldn't it be easier and better for everyone to just go somewhere else?

Xilizhra wrote...

And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales, and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end.
Halamshiral was utterly destroyed, the elves driven out, scattered, left
to survive on goodwill alone.

Yes, the ones the Chantry couldn't catch and force into their cities.

Well, that's you're interpretation, and I don't think we will be able to see eye to eye in this. But if the orlesians really wanted the dalish dead that badly, then why didn't they hunt them down? Why don't they do it now?

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Velanna's personal issue.

Which started with Velanna and some of her clan retaliating against humans who tried to burn them alive by setting free to the Forest they were making camp at. It's not like the humans were blameless here, and one of them murders a child in response to Velanna's actions later on (when she is deceived about who killed her  group and kidnapped her sister).

So... she killed random humans as punishment to other unrelated humans who had wronged her? Do you really want to try and justify that?

[Xilizhra]

The city elves live in alienages because they want to. It's safer for them there, true, but it's still a choice. Howe murdered elves in the Denerim alienage because he's a murderous bastard and as a noble can get away with it. The templar thing I adressed in my last post.

\\
He'd be deposed rather fast by the other nobles had he tried it on a whole human town. As for templars, it's blatantly trampling on the laws of another civilization.

And that justifies threats of murder or actual murder how?

I doubt the Dalish see many friendly faces.

Not if you believe Genitivi:

I like to judge whole species by bandits too.

You're aware the Clayne are the same people who founded the kingdom of Ferelden, right? And even if they were generally agressive, does that justify attacking them in their lands when they have done nothing to you? Wouldn't it be easier and better for everyone to just go somewhere else?

Your first line more or less proves my point. And if they were clear threats to other civilizations, it may well have been the safe option.

Well, that's you're interpretation, and I don't think we will be able to see eye to eye in this. But if the orlesians really wanted the dalish dead that badly, then why didn't they hunt them down? Why don't they do it now?

Too hard. The Dalish move around too much.

[Gwydden]

Well, I think we've reached an impasse xD. We could go on like this forever. All I meant to say is that a) the dalish are not as innocent as some people would have them be and the city elves are in a rough spot not because of humans intent on screwing them, but becaus of racial friction where they are in a disadvantage.

For the record, I'd prefer it to be clear that I have nothing against the elves. I really think the dalish deserve their own homeland, just that completely unrelated people shouldn't have to pay for it. Though I do believe that the city elves would be better off trying to improve their relationships with their human countrymen. Maybe not shunning mixed marriages would be a start.

PS: Also, Howe killed and entire castle full of people, including the family he was sworn to, and got away with it. Sorry, I just can't help it xD.

Modifié par Gwydden, 23 septembre 2013 - 09:42 .

[ianvillan]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Crush them into Alienages and murder them when they start getting uppity. Also the templars will hunt down Dalish Keepers and any human power in the vicinity of a Dalish camp will force them off as quickly as possible.

The city elves live in alienages because they want to. It's safer for them there, true, but it's still a choice. Howe murdered elves in the Denerim alienage because he's a murderous bastard and as a noble can get away with it. The templar thing I adressed in my last post.

The city elves have nowhere else to go, as you said the dalish have no land and are forced off from where they settle and the city elves are not allowed to move out of the alienage into the city proper, they are not allowed places on what goes for government of the citys.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

[*]Be allowed to walk into an alienage and take any female elf to rape.

Templars go into a dalish camp and attack the elves because they refuse to hand over mages which makes them common kidnapers.

I don't think that technically anyone is allwoed to rape an elf "just because". It is just that no human really cares enough to actually do anything about it. Nor does it seem that the Elves even express a desire for the humans to help them.

And technically Tempalrs are not "kidnappers". They are law enforcers. When a Dalish clan enters a new nation, they have to follow the state laws of that nation. Since free mages are illegal in pretty much ever nation of Thedas, the Dalish are breaking the law whenever they do not turn over their mages. Technically speaking. But since "kidnapping" is a technical term....

[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Be allowed to walk into an alienage and take any female elf to rape.

Templars go into a dalish camp and attack the elves because they refuse to hand over mages which makes them common kidnapers.

I don't think that technically anyone is allowed to rape an elf "just because". It is just that no human really cares enough to actually do anything about it. Nor does it seem that the Elves even express a desire for the humans to help them.

And technically Tempalrs are not "kidnappers". They are law enforcers. When a Dalish clan enters a new nation, they have to follow the state laws of that nation. Since free mages are illegal in pretty much ever nation of Thedas, the Dalish are breaking the law whenever they do not turn over their mages. Technically speaking. But since "kidnapping" is a technical term....

I am not saying the Dalish are innocent but the question asked was what have the Humans ever done to the Dalish.

As you said no one seems to care if an elf is raped but if the nobles did it with Humans then the other humans would notice and care.

But the Dalish travel to new nations because they are forced to keep moving because of humans attacking them and I would believe the Dalish think of their camps as their own nation with there own rules.

[Xilizhra]

PS: Also, Howe killed and entire castle full of people, including the family he was sworn to, and got away with it. Sorry, I just can't help it xD.

Because Loghain took over and the civil war split everyone who might have been able to bring him down. He would never have gotten away with it otherwise.

[ianvillan]

Xilizhra wrote...

PS: Also, Howe killed and entire castle full of people, including the family he was sworn to, and got away with it. Sorry, I just can't help it xD.

Because Loghain took over and the civil war split everyone who might have been able to bring him down. He would never have gotten away with it otherwise.

King Callian said he would not let Howe get away with it and that he would be dealt with after the battle of Lothering, Arl Eamon was not going to let Howe get away with it either. But in the alienage not even a chantry sister could seemed to really be willing to stop the nobles.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Be allowed to walk into an alienage and take any female elf to rape.

Templars go into a dalish camp and attack the elves because they refuse to hand over mages which makes them common kidnapers.

I don't think that technically anyone is allowed to rape an elf "just because". It is just that no human really cares enough to actually do anything about it. Nor does it seem that the Elves even express a desire for the humans to help them.

And technically Tempalrs are not "kidnappers". They are law enforcers. When a Dalish clan enters a new nation, they have to follow the state laws of that nation. Since free mages are illegal in pretty much ever nation of Thedas, the Dalish are breaking the law whenever they do not turn over their mages. Technically speaking. But since "kidnapping" is a technical term....

I am not saying the Dalish are innocent but the question asked was what have the Humans ever done to the Dalish.

As you said no one seems to care if an elf is raped but if the nobles did it with Humans then the other humans would notice and care.

But the Dalish travel to new nations because they are forced to keep moving because of humans attacking them and I would believe the Dalish think of their camps as their own nation with there own rules.

What the Dalish think and feel, does not make it so, now does it? They are poaching and squatting on a sovereign nation's lands. They are effectively lawless. You can't really blame the humans for wanting to uphold their own laws. By the end of the day, the Dalish chose their fate, and they have condemned themselves to living as nomadic outlaws, given the traditions they keep clinging to.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

PS: Also, Howe killed and entire castle full of people, including the family he was sworn to, and got away with it. Sorry, I just can't help it xD.

Because Loghain took over and the civil war split everyone who might have been able to bring him down. He would never have gotten away with it otherwise.

King Callian said he would not let Howe get away with it and that he would be dealt with after the battle of Lothering, Arl Eamon was not going to let Howe get away with it either. But in the alienage not even a chantry sister could seemed to really be willing to stop the nobles.

What was a lowly Chantry sister going to do about the Arl of Denerim (effectively the second highest rank in the Arling)? She did try to stop him, but he didn't listen. If she had reported it to her superiors, then as i mentioned earlier, they most likely would not even have cared.

[MisterJB]

The irony here is that the same people who clamor ever so much for the people of the Dales to pay for what happened 700 years ago are the very same people who, on other debates, would quickly point out how unfair it is to punish mages for what Tevinter did.

Wait, did I say "irony"? Sorry, I meant hipocrisy.