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[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

PS: Also, Howe killed and entire castle full of people, including the family he was sworn to, and got away with it. Sorry, I just can't help it xD.

Because Loghain took over and the civil war split everyone who might have been able to bring him down. He would never have gotten away with it otherwise.

King Callian said he would not let Howe get away with it and that he would be dealt with after the battle of Lothering, Arl Eamon was not going to let Howe get away with it either. But in the alienage not even a chantry sister could seemed to really be willing to stop the nobles.

What was a lowly Chantry sister going to do about the Arl of Denerim (effectively the second highest rank in the Arling)? She did try to stop him, but he didn't listen. If she had reported it to her superiors, then as i mentioned earlier, they most likely would not even have cared.

Exactly no one would have cared or punished those responsible and the elves in the alienage know this but they are expected to have no problems with humans or see no reason for their own homeland. Yet the Humans have a right to treat the elves as they do and to persecute the Dalish because a few Humans are killed by the Dalish and Orlais was attacked by the Elves a few hundred years ago.

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Velanna's personal issue.

Which started with Velanna and some of her clan retaliating against humans who tried to burn them alive by setting free to the Forest they were making camp at. It's not like the humans were blameless here, and one of them murders a child in response to Velanna's actions later on (when she is deceived about who killed her  group and kidnapped her sister). 

So... she killed random humans as punishment to other unrelated humans who had wronged her? Do you really want to try and justify that? 

My point was that the humans weren't blameless in this incident, not that Velanna was justified in her actions (which I never wrote).

[MisterJB]

ianvillan wrote...
Exactly no one would have cared or punished those responsible and the elves in the alienage know this but they are expected to have no problems with humans or see no reason for their own homeland. Yet the Humans have a right to treat the elves as they do and to persecute the Dalish because a few Humans are killed by the Dalish and Orlais was attacked by the Elves a few hundred years ago.

No one here denies that elves have fair grievances that should be adressed. What people are opposing is the suggestion that the elves should be allowed to murder, mutilate, torture, rape, steal from and forcibly relocate thousands of innocent humans because of what happened 700 years ago.
The Dales existed as an independent kingdom for 300 years and it has now been part of the orlesian empire for 700 years. The humans in the Dales have lived there four centuries more than the elves ever  did and yet, we are supposed to accept that it is somehow their land and that entire human families should just move? Nay, plow that.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 septembre 2013 - 10:53 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

The irony here is that the same people who clamor ever so much for the people of the Dales to pay for what happened 700 years ago are the very same people who, on other debates, would quickly point out how unfair it is to punish mages for what Tevinter did.

Wait, did I say "irony"? Sorry, I meant hipocrisy. 

I don't recall anyone saying that helping the elven rebellion overthrow the Orlesian occupation of their homeland had anything to do with revenge. Preventing elves from continuing to suffer in oppressive ghettos of destitution in societies full of humans who see the elves as less than people is the issue; giving the Dalish back their country so they can freely worship the Creators (which is against Chantry law) and follow their own culture is another side of the coin.

[Gwydden]

ianvillan wrote...
Exactly no one would have cared or punished those responsible and the elves in the alienage know this but they are expected to have no problems with humans or see no reason for their own homeland. Yet the Humans have a right to treat the elves as they do and to persecute the Dalish because a few Humans are killed by the Dalish and Orlais was attacked by the Elves a few hundred years ago.

The daughter of Billy the human peasant was abducted and raped by Charlie the noble ******. The samed happened to the daugther of Ellie the elf tailor. Do you think any commoner would dare to call said noble ****** out for his actions? Do you think the people of the higher classes will give a damn to what happened to some commoners? Do you think the guards are going to try to arrest a NOBLE?

In pseudo medieval settings, nobles have nearly UNLIMITED privileges. What makes the elves recurring victims is that they are all commoners added to racism that goes both ways. The only reason why elves don't get away with mistreating humans is because there isn't a single elf that is a noble.

And if you doubt that noble can do whatever they want to commoners of all races, just look at Raleigh and Howe, who kept running their parties for a long time without no one ever giving a damn of being reckless enough to interfere.

Modifié par Gwydden, 23 septembre 2013 - 11:06 .

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't recall anyone saying that helping the elven rebellion overthrow the Orlesian occupation of their homeland had anything to do with revenge. Preventing elves from continuing to suffer in oppressive ghettos of destitution in societies full of humans who see the elves as less than people is the issue; giving the Dalish back their country so they can freely worship the Creators (which is against Chantry law) and follow their own culture is another side of the coin.

That's the point. It's not their country. It hasn't been for seven centuries. Other people live there know, and their claim to the Dales is as legitimate as that of the elves, if not more.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
So, too, will the consequences of conquering the Dales be delivered. Enough, at least, to ensure that Orlais can never harm anyone again. Nor will the Chantry be able to.

He is obviously looking for revenge.

And if you're not, I suggest picking a place not occupied by humans. There's plenty of unexplored land south of Ferelden. In 700 years, I'm sure the Dalish could have easily packed their gear and moved out if they really wanted to.
But the fact that you specifically refer to a place that was historically ocuppied by elves denounce your motives.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 septembre 2013 - 11:07 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Exactly no one would have cared or punished those responsible and the elves in the alienage know this but they are expected to have no problems with humans or see no reason for their own homeland. Yet the Humans have a right to treat the elves as they do and to persecute the Dalish because a few Humans are killed by the Dalish and Orlais was attacked by the Elves a few hundred years ago.

No one here denies that elves have fair grievances that should be adressed. What people are opposing is the suggestion that the elves should be allowed to murder, mutilate, torture, rape, steal from and forcibly relocate thousands of innocent humans because of what happened 700 years ago.

No one is endorsing the torture, rape, or murder of civilians. Reclaiming the Dales from Orlesian occupation means dislodging the Orlesian Empire from the elven nation, and possibly relocating people who follow a religion that is violently opposed to foreign beliefs.

MisterJB wrote...

The Dales existed as an independent kingdom for 300 years and it has now been part of the orlesian empire for 700 years. The humans in the Dales have lived there four centuries more than the elves ever  did and yet, we are supposed to accept that it is somehow their land and that entire human families should just move? Nay, plow that.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the monstrous behavior committed across the centuries towards the elves has lead me to have a different view of the situation.

[ianvillan]

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Exactly no one would have cared or punished those responsible and the elves in the alienage know this but they are expected to have no problems with humans or see no reason for their own homeland. Yet the Humans have a right to treat the elves as they do and to persecute the Dalish because a few Humans are killed by the Dalish and Orlais was attacked by the Elves a few hundred years ago.

No one here denies that elves have fair grievances that should be adressed. What people are opposing is the suggestion that the elves should be allowed to murder, mutilate, torture, rape, steal from and forcibly relocate thousands of innocent humans because of what happened 700 years ago.
The Dales existed as an independent kingdom for 300 years and it has now been part of the orlesian empire for 700 years. The humans in the Dales have lived there four centuries more than the elves ever  did and yet, we are supposed to accept that it is somehow their land and that entire human families should just move? Nay, plow that.

Do you really believe the Chantry or Orlais will allow the elves to worship there own god, have their own customs, be allowed to have keepers and also move out of the alienage and have positions of power in the government. I don't think the Chantry or Orlais will allow any of that so what do the Elves do.

[Gwydden]

ianvillan wrote...
Do you really believe the Chantry or Orlais will allow the elves to worship there own god, have their own customs, be allowed to have keepers and also move out of the alienage and have positions of power in the government. I don't think the Chantry or Orlais will allow any of that so what do the Elves do.

Why should they? The power in Orlais is held by the nobles. Nobility is a privilege only gained through birth or exceptional accomplishments (e.g. the Warden) not a right.

[ianvillan]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
So, too, will the consequences of conquering the Dales be delivered. Enough, at least, to ensure that Orlais can never harm anyone again. Nor will the Chantry be able to.

He is obviously looking for revenge.

And if you're not, I suggest picking a place not occupied by humans. There's plenty of unexplored land south of Ferelden. In 700 years, I'm sure the Dalish could have easily packed their gear and moved out if they really wanted to.
But the fact that you specifically refer to a place that was historically ocuppied by elves denounce your motives.

And how long till Orlais and the Chantry declare an exulted march against this new homeland of the elves because they refuse to worship the maker, or allow a Chantry to be there, or Because of any number of reasons that they might have.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...


No one is endorsing the torture, rape, or murder of civilians. Reclaiming the Dales from Orlesian occupation means dislodging the Orlesian Empire from the elven nation, and possibly relocating people who follow a religion that is violently opposed to foreign beliefs.


You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the monstrous behavior committed across the centuries towards the elves has lead me to have a different view of the situation.

But that is what is going to happen if the elves forcibly relocate the etnire human population. The suffering of the elves over the centuries doesn't make the Orlesian civilians claim to living on the lands of their ancestors less valid.

[Gwydden]

ianvillan wrote...
And how long till Orlais and the Chantry declare an exulted march against this new homeland of the elves because they refuse to worship the maker, or allow a Chantry to be there, or Because of any number of reasons that they might have.

How would they know is there in the first place? No one ever goes south or west of Thedas.

[ianvillan]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


No one is endorsing the torture, rape, or murder of civilians. Reclaiming the Dales from Orlesian occupation means dislodging the Orlesian Empire from the elven nation, and possibly relocating people who follow a religion that is violently opposed to foreign beliefs.


You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the monstrous behavior committed across the centuries towards the elves has lead me to have a different view of the situation.

But that is what is going to happen if the elves forcibly relocate the etnire human population. The suffering of the elves over the centuries doesn't make the Orlesian civilians claim to living on the lands of their ancestors less valid.

Who says they have to forcibly relocate the Humans the Elves could create an alienage in their city's for the Humans to live in.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
No one is endorsing the torture, rape, or murder of civilians. Reclaiming the Dales from Orlesian occupation means dislodging the Orlesian Empire from the elven nation, and possibly relocating people who follow a religion that is violently opposed to foreign beliefs.

You are. Everytime you suggest giving the Dales back to the elves, you're supporting mass murder, torture, rape and theft.
It's what happens in war, it's what happens whenever a people is defeated, you can find that out by opening any history book. The Dalish will prey on the column of humans and kill and steal what possessions they could carry; some humans will refuse to leave and the elves will "dislodge" them. And by that I mean they'll kill them and bury them in mass graves but not before extracting some "punishment" for the years of opression.
Men will be tortured, mutilated and murdered. Babies will be killed in front of their mothers. Sisters, wives and daugthers will be raped as their brothers, husbands and fathers are forced to watch.
And those who survive will have lost their homes, the lands their families spent seven centuries developing.

You want the Dales back in the elven hands so badly? Fine, but this is what will happen and don't try to sugarcoat it.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the monstrous behavior committed across the centuries towards the elves has lead me to have a different view of the situation.

An eye for an eye leaves the world world blind.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 septembre 2013 - 11:17 .

[ianvillan]

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
And how long till Orlais and the Chantry declare an exulted march against this new homeland of the elves because they refuse to worship the maker, or allow a Chantry to be there, or Because of any number of reasons that they might have.

How would they know is there in the first place? No one ever goes south or west of Thedas.

You think if Hundreds of Elves started to move to a new land that the Chantry or Orlais wont follow them to see where they are going in case they could be a threat that's even assuming that the Chantry or Orlais even let the Elves go in the first place.

[Gwydden]

ianvillan wrote...
You think if Hundreds of Elves started to move to a new land that the Chantry or Orlais wont follow them to see where they are going in case they could be a threat that's even assuming that the Chantry or Orlais even let the Elves go in the first place.

The dalish clans have proven that they're very good at going unnoticed when they want to, and I have already stated that I don't think the city elves want or should want to separate themselves from their human countrymen.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

ianvillan wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
So, too, will the consequences of conquering the Dales be delivered. Enough, at least, to ensure that Orlais can never harm anyone again. Nor will the Chantry be able to.

He is obviously looking for revenge.

And if you're not, I suggest picking a place not occupied by humans. There's plenty of unexplored land south of Ferelden. In 700 years, I'm sure the Dalish could have easily packed their gear and moved out if they really wanted to.
But the fact that you specifically refer to a place that was historically ocuppied by elves denounce your motives.

And how long till Orlais and the Chantry declare an exulted march against this new homeland of the elves because they refuse to worship the maker, or allow a Chantry to be there, or Because of any number of reasons that they might have.

Well if they don't sack Val'Royeaux or something this time, it's far less likely to happen. In fact it's far more likley to happen if they stir human anger by ethnic cleansing part of Orlais.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 septembre 2013 - 11:21 .

[Xilizhra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


No one is endorsing the torture, rape, or murder of civilians. Reclaiming the Dales from Orlesian occupation means dislodging the Orlesian Empire from the elven nation, and possibly relocating people who follow a religion that is violently opposed to foreign beliefs.


You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the monstrous behavior committed across the centuries towards the elves has lead me to have a different view of the situation.

But that is what is going to happen if the elves forcibly relocate the etnire human population. The suffering of the elves over the centuries doesn't make the Orlesian civilians claim to living on the lands of their ancestors less valid.

The land was stolen, their ancestral claim means jack****. The only problem is the suffering that would be caused to the current population; the land isn't theirs, but hurting them isn't the objective. What might work as a compromise if the Dales are necessary to retake is to put them under elven political dominance and see whether the humans want to continue living there.

[MisterJB]

ianvillan wrote...
Do you really believe the Chantry or Orlais will allow the elves to worship there own god, have their own customs, be allowed to have keepers and also move out of the alienage and have positions of power in the government. I don't think the Chantry or Orlais will allow any of that so what do the Elves do.

Remember that time Soris married a wealthy human woman and the elves rioted because they felt this was a betrayal?
Well, for starters, stop doing that.

What do the elves do? I could offer a few suggestions that might or might not work in order to integrate them better into human society but that would take time I don't currently have.
Bottom line, forcibly relocation of every human in the Dales is not an option. Not only is it morally despicable, it would only lead to elves still being surrounded by the more numerous and powerful humans who would have many, many reasons to be angry at them. It's not like the elves ever offered anything that discouraged an invasion such as commerce.

[ianvillan]

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
You think if Hundreds of Elves started to move to a new land that the Chantry or Orlais wont follow them to see where they are going in case they could be a threat that's even assuming that the Chantry or Orlais even let the Elves go in the first place.

The dalish clans have proven that they're very good at going unnoticed when they want to, and I have already stated that I don't think the city elves want or should want to separate themselves from their human countrymen.

I think the city Elves would have a good reason to separate themselves from the Human population that persecutes them and does not care about their suffering or crimes committed against them or having no say in their lives.

Surely some city Elves will want to leave and they are not so good at going unnoticed like the Dalish. 

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Do you really believe the Chantry or Orlais will allow the elves to worship there own god, have their own customs, be allowed to have keepers and also move out of the alienage and have positions of power in the government. I don't think the Chantry or Orlais will allow any of that so what do the Elves do.

Remember that time Soris married a wealthy human woman and the elves rioted because they felt this was a betrayal?
Well, for starters, stop doing that.

What do the elves do? I could offer a few suggestions that might or might not work in order to integrate them better into human society but that would take time I don't currently have.
Bottom line, forcibly relocation of every human in the Dales is not an option. Not only is it morally despicable, it would only lead to elves still being surrounded by the more numerous and powerful humans who would have many, many reasons to be angry at them. It's not like the elves ever offered anything that discouraged an invasion such as commerce.

Nor was it that the humans ever wanted to respect elven territory.

Hopefully this Veil tear weakens human society for long enough for the elves to get a foothold.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Exactly no one would have cared or punished those responsible and the elves in the alienage know this but they are expected to have no problems with humans or see no reason for their own homeland. Yet the Humans have a right to treat the elves as they do and to persecute the Dalish because a few Humans are killed by the Dalish and Orlais was attacked by the Elves a few hundred years ago.

No one here denies that elves have fair grievances that should be adressed. What people are opposing is the suggestion that the elves should be allowed to murder, mutilate, torture, rape, steal from and forcibly relocate thousands of innocent humans because of what happened 700 years ago.
The Dales existed as an independent kingdom for 300 years and it has now been part of the orlesian empire for 700 years. The humans in the Dales have lived there four centuries more than the elves ever  did and yet, we are supposed to accept that it is somehow their land and that entire human families should just move? Nay, plow that.

Do you really believe the Chantry or Orlais will allow the elves to worship there own god, have their own customs, be allowed to have keepers and also move out of the alienage and have positions of power in the government. I don't think the Chantry or Orlais will allow any of that so what do the Elves do.

Orlais and the Chantry havn't given a damn about the Elves since the Exalted March. The Elves are fully allowed to leave their alienages if tehy so accumulate enough wealth to buy property outside of it. However, racisms amongst the cmmon man, rgarding the Elves, makes getting a well-paid job as an Elf very unlikely, and preventing their property from being burned to the ground by racists lynch mobs even harder. But Orlais as a state, and the Chantry as an organization, has long since stopped giving a damn about the Elves.

[ianvillan]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
So, too, will the consequences of conquering the Dales be delivered. Enough, at least, to ensure that Orlais can never harm anyone again. Nor will the Chantry be able to.

He is obviously looking for revenge.

And if you're not, I suggest picking a place not occupied by humans. There's plenty of unexplored land south of Ferelden. In 700 years, I'm sure the Dalish could have easily packed their gear and moved out if they really wanted to.
But the fact that you specifically refer to a place that was historically ocuppied by elves denounce your motives.

And how long till Orlais and the Chantry declare an exulted march against this new homeland of the elves because they refuse to worship the maker, or allow a Chantry to be there, or Because of any number of reasons that they might have.

Well if they don't sack Val'Royeaux or something this time, it's far less likely to happen. In fact it's far more likley to happen if they stir human anger by ethnic cleansing part of Orlais.

Or if they have a new homeland that they are building up and a small population of Elves but if they refuse to aid the Humans in a blight they will get another Exulted March against them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That was just part of why their relationships soured before the war. The Exalted March came after they captured a major city and were bearing down on the capital.