1256 réponses à ce sujet

[ianvillan]

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Do you really believe the Chantry or Orlais will allow the elves to worship there own god, have their own customs, be allowed to have keepers and also move out of the alienage and have positions of power in the government. I don't think the Chantry or Orlais will allow any of that so what do the Elves do.

Remember that time Soris married a wealthy human woman and the elves rioted because they felt this was a betrayal?
Well, for starters, stop doing that.

What do the elves do? I could offer a few suggestions that might or might not work in order to integrate them better into human society but that would take time I don't currently have.
Bottom line, forcibly relocation of every human in the Dales is not an option. Not only is it morally despicable, it would only lead to elves still being surrounded by the more numerous and powerful humans who would have many, many reasons to be angry at them. It's not like the elves ever offered anything that discouraged an invasion such as commerce.

How about instead of the Elves always having to change to integrate themselves in Human society why don't the Humans try to change to integrate some of the Elven ideas.

[Gwydden]

ianvillan wrote...
I think the city Elves would have a good reason to separate themselves from the Human population that persecutes them and does not care about their suffering or crimes committed against them or having no say in their lives.

Surely some city Elves will want to leave and they are not so good at going unnoticed like the Dalish. 

Humans don't care about elves. Elves don't care about humans. Humans don't care about humans they don't know. Elves don't care about elves they don't know.

Humans do not persecute elves and it is certainly not their obligation to care about what happens to them. It's ridiculous how people think humans in Denerim ought to riot because a noble exercised his privileges.

[Gwydden]

ianvillan wrote...
How about instead of the Elves always having to change to integrate themselves in Human society why don't the Humans try to change to integrate some of the Elven ideas.

Because is the elves who, because of historical reasons, live in countries the humans founded.

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
How about instead of the Elves always having to change to integrate themselves in Human society why don't the Humans try to change to integrate some of the Elven ideas.

Because is the elves who, because of historical reasons, live in countries the humans founded.

Actually, humans are currently squatting in the entirety of the country elves founded.

[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Exactly no one would have cared or punished those responsible and the elves in the alienage know this but they are expected to have no problems with humans or see no reason for their own homeland. Yet the Humans have a right to treat the elves as they do and to persecute the Dalish because a few Humans are killed by the Dalish and Orlais was attacked by the Elves a few hundred years ago.

No one here denies that elves have fair grievances that should be adressed. What people are opposing is the suggestion that the elves should be allowed to murder, mutilate, torture, rape, steal from and forcibly relocate thousands of innocent humans because of what happened 700 years ago.
The Dales existed as an independent kingdom for 300 years and it has now been part of the orlesian empire for 700 years. The humans in the Dales have lived there four centuries more than the elves ever  did and yet, we are supposed to accept that it is somehow their land and that entire human families should just move? Nay, plow that.

Do you really believe the Chantry or Orlais will allow the elves to worship there own god, have their own customs, be allowed to have keepers and also move out of the alienage and have positions of power in the government. I don't think the Chantry or Orlais will allow any of that so what do the Elves do.

Orlais and the Chantry havn't given a damn about the Elves since the Exalted March. The Elves are fully allowed to leave their alienages if tehy so accumulate enough wealth to buy property outside of it. However, racisms amongst the cmmon man, rgarding the Elves, makes getting a well-paid job as an Elf very unlikely, and preventing their property from being burned to the ground by racists lynch mobs even harder. But Orlais as a state, and the Chantry as an organization, has long since stopped giving a damn about the Elves.

The Chantry and Orlais haven't given a damn about the Elves because the Elves are broken and scattered with no homeland and forced to rely on Humans to survive and to obey human laws. But I know that if the Elves ever got a homeland and became united that the Chantry and Orlais will view them as a threat and will not allow them to live how they want.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, humans are currently squatting in the entirety of the country elves founded.

Arlathan ceased to exist a long time ago. The current nations that integrate Thedas are culturally human, are ruled by humans, and were historically created by humans.

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't recall anyone saying that helping the elven rebellion overthrow the Orlesian occupation of their homeland had anything to do with revenge. Preventing elves from continuing to suffer in oppressive ghettos of destitution in societies full of humans who see the elves as less than people is the issue; giving the Dalish back their country so they can freely worship the Creators (which is against Chantry law) and follow their own culture is another side of the coin.

That's the point. It's not their country. It hasn't been for seven centuries. Other people live there know, and their claim to the Dales is as legitimate as that of the elves, if not more. 

The elves who are rebelling in the Dales may disagree with you, and I'm sure a Dalish Inquisitor might see the occupied kingdom as the rightful country of his people. If it's possible to help the elves, then my Dalish Inquisitor will support it. From his perspective, the choice between Celene and Gaspard means nothing in comparison to the liberation of the Dales. It's a potential mecca for elven equality; a symbol.

[Gwydden]

ianvillan wrote...
The Chantry and Orlais haven't given a damn about the Elves because the Elves are broken and scattered with no homeland and forced to rely on Humans to survive and to obey human laws. But I know that if the Elves ever got a homeland and became united that the Chantry and Orlais will view them as a threat and will not allow them to live how they want.

The Dales remained unmolested by humans for centuries, and was way more powerful than any elven nation that could be created in the present. The Exalted March was not called until the Dalish marched on Val Royeaux, the seat of the White Chantry.

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The elves who are rebelling in the Dales may disagree with you, and I'm sure a Dalish Inquisitor might see the occupied kingdom as the rightful country of his people.

The humans who have lived there their entire lives may disagree with you.

Modifié par Gwydden, 23 septembre 2013 - 11:37 .

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, humans are currently squatting in the entirety of the country elves founded.

Arlathan ceased to exist a long time ago. The current nations that integrate Thedas are culturally human, are ruled by humans, and were historically created by humans.

Not the Dales, an area just taken over by Orlais.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
Not the Dales, an area just taken over by Orlais.

The Dales as an elven nation also ceased to exist long ago. Nothing of the elven kingdom actually remains there.

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Not the Dales, an area just taken over by Orlais.

The Dales as an elven nation also ceased to exist long ago. Nothing of the elven kingdom actually remains there.

Ah, good. So if we nuke Orlais, the elves can take all of it?

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, good. So if we nuke Orlais, the elves can take all of it?

By all means. Though I doubt they will have time to enjoy it when everyone else turns on them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Exactly no one would have cared or punished those responsible and the elves in the alienage know this but they are expected to have no problems with humans or see no reason for their own homeland. Yet the Humans have a right to treat the elves as they do and to persecute the Dalish because a few Humans are killed by the Dalish and Orlais was attacked by the Elves a few hundred years ago.

No one here denies that elves have fair grievances that should be adressed. What people are opposing is the suggestion that the elves should be allowed to murder, mutilate, torture, rape, steal from and forcibly relocate thousands of innocent humans because of what happened 700 years ago.
The Dales existed as an independent kingdom for 300 years and it has now been part of the orlesian empire for 700 years. The humans in the Dales have lived there four centuries more than the elves ever  did and yet, we are supposed to accept that it is somehow their land and that entire human families should just move? Nay, plow that.

Do you really believe the Chantry or Orlais will allow the elves to worship there own god, have their own customs, be allowed to have keepers and also move out of the alienage and have positions of power in the government. I don't think the Chantry or Orlais will allow any of that so what do the Elves do.

Orlais and the Chantry havn't given a damn about the Elves since the Exalted March. The Elves are fully allowed to leave their alienages if tehy so accumulate enough wealth to buy property outside of it. However, racisms amongst the cmmon man, rgarding the Elves, makes getting a well-paid job as an Elf very unlikely, and preventing their property from being burned to the ground by racists lynch mobs even harder. But Orlais as a state, and the Chantry as an organization, has long since stopped giving a damn about the Elves.

The Chantry and Orlais haven't given a damn about the Elves because the Elves are broken and scattered with no homeland and forced to rely on Humans to survive and to obey human laws. But I know that if the Elves ever got a homeland and became united that the Chantry and Orlais will view them as a threat and will not allow them to live how they want.

If the Dalish forcibly evicted all humans currently living in the Dales, the Elves would be a threat..... They would have just conquered a huge part of human territory, probably violently. However, if the Elves just moved out of Thedas, either south or west, I doubt the Chantry and Orlais would care much, since they got bigger fish to fry. Perhaps down the line the Elves would become a concern, but as they are now, they are the weakest of Orlais' potential enemies, even if all the Elves united.

[ianvillan]

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
The Chantry and Orlais haven't given a damn about the Elves because the Elves are broken and scattered with no homeland and forced to rely on Humans to survive and to obey human laws. But I know that if the Elves ever got a homeland and became united that the Chantry and Orlais will view them as a threat and will not allow them to live how they want.

The Dales remained unmolested by humans for centuries, and was way more powerful than any elven nation that could be created in the present. The Exalted March was not called until the Dalish marched on Val Royeaux, the seat of the White Chantry.

But before the Elves supposedly attacked the Chantry and Orlais did not respect the laws of the Elves and wanted them to follow their religion and it was them who sent in Templars to force their priests in to the Dales.

Don't forget it was not long ago that Orlais and the Chantry were prepared to declare an Exulted March against the Dwarves because their only brother was killed in a riot.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Not the Dales, an area just taken over by Orlais.

The Dales as an elven nation also ceased to exist long ago. Nothing of the elven kingdom actually remains there.

Ah, good. So if we nuke Orlais, the elves can take all of it?

If the nation cease to exist, yes. You don't see Italy claiming to own half of eurpe, simply becasue they occupy the same part of Europe, as the origins of the Roman Empire. You know why? Because they aren't the same nation. Whatever the Dales might have been, it ceased to exist the second they last their war with Orlais. Whatever will be established there will be an immitation of what was.

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves who are rebelling in the Dales may disagree with you, and I'm sure a Dalish Inquisitor might see the occupied kingdom as the rightful country of his people. 

The humans who have lived there their entire lives may disagree with you. 

Genitivi certainly thought that humans were the "masters of Thedas", so you may be right. Those humans likely don't even see the elves as people, so it's doubtful they think the elves deserve to reclaim their homeland.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
The Chantry and Orlais haven't given a damn about the Elves because the Elves are broken and scattered with no homeland and forced to rely on Humans to survive and to obey human laws. But I know that if the Elves ever got a homeland and became united that the Chantry and Orlais will view them as a threat and will not allow them to live how they want.

The Dales remained unmolested by humans for centuries, and was way more powerful than any elven nation that could be created in the present. The Exalted March was not called until the Dalish marched on Val Royeaux, the seat of the White Chantry.

But before the Elves supposedly attacked the Chantry and Orlais did not respect the laws of the Elves and wanted them to follow their religion and it was them who sent in Templars to force their priests in to the Dales.

Don't forget it was not long ago that Orlais and the Chantry were prepared to declare an Exulted March against the Dwarves because their only brother was killed in a riot.

Don't use that Dalish codex entry for anything else than toilet paper. It is utterly worthless in a historical debate as anyhting else than a retelling of an Elvish saga. Actually, I think I can wring more historical context out of an actual viking saga, than that piece of trash the Dalish codex entry is.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 23 septembre 2013 - 11:47 .

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Not the Dales, an area just taken over by Orlais.

The Dales as an elven nation also ceased to exist long ago. Nothing of the elven kingdom actually remains there.

Ah, good. So if we nuke Orlais, the elves can take all of it?

If the nation cease to exist, yes. You don't see Italy claiming to own half of eurpe, simply becasue they occupy the same part of Europe, as the origins of the Roman Empire. You know why? Because they aren't the same nation. Whatever the Dales might have been, it ceased to exist the second they last their war with Orlais. Whatever will be established there will be an immitation of what was.

Also, the land was never Rome's to begin with, it conquered and stole all of it.

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ah, good. So if we nuke Orlais, the elves can take all of it? 

By all means. Though I doubt they will have time to enjoy it when everyone else turns on them. 

If they have the backing of the Inquisition, then the Dalish Inquisitor can deal with any potential enemies.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 septembre 2013 - 11:49 .

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...
If they have the backing of the Inquisition, then the Dalish Inquisitor deal with any potential enemies.

I suspect almost every human in the world would be too much even for the Inquisitor... but if he can befriend/persuade human nations into accepting the dalish, sure, why not.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Not the Dales, an area just taken over by Orlais.

The Dales as an elven nation also ceased to exist long ago. Nothing of the elven kingdom actually remains there.

Ah, good. So if we nuke Orlais, the elves can take all of it?

If the nation cease to exist, yes. You don't see Italy claiming to own half of eurpe, simply becasue they occupy the same part of Europe, as the origins of the Roman Empire. You know why? Because they aren't the same nation. Whatever the Dales might have been, it ceased to exist the second they last their war with Orlais. Whatever will be established there will be an immitation of what was.

Also, the land was never Rome's to begin with, it conquered and stole all of it.

No. They conquered it. You even used the word yourself, how can you not get it? THe native americans, the native australians, and any other natives who have since been removed from power, does not have any claims to their "ancestral lands" however haugty taughty that might sound. They failed to defend their own land, and thus all their claims to it is forfeit. In the case of territorial disputes, might makes right. If the Elves actually amass enough power, militarily, political, economical, or any combination there of, they are allowed to "retake" the Dales. I personally wouldn't be happy about it, because it would hurt human interrests, but if we fail to defend our own land, our claim to it is forfeit.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, the land was never Rome's to begin with, it conquered and stole all of it.

I'm sure the United Nations' sanction got lost somewhere along the way.

[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
The Chantry and Orlais haven't given a damn about the Elves because the Elves are broken and scattered with no homeland and forced to rely on Humans to survive and to obey human laws. But I know that if the Elves ever got a homeland and became united that the Chantry and Orlais will view them as a threat and will not allow them to live how they want.

The Dales remained unmolested by humans for centuries, and was way more powerful than any elven nation that could be created in the present. The Exalted March was not called until the Dalish marched on Val Royeaux, the seat of the White Chantry.

But before the Elves supposedly attacked the Chantry and Orlais did not respect the laws of the Elves and wanted them to follow their religion and it was them who sent in Templars to force their priests in to the Dales.

Don't forget it was not long ago that Orlais and the Chantry were prepared to declare an Exulted March against the Dwarves because their only brother was killed in a riot.

Don't use that Dalish codex entry for anything else than toilet paper. It is utterly worthless as a source for historical debate as anyhting else than a retelling of an Elvish saga. Actually, I think I can wring more historical context out of an actual viking saga, than that piece of trash the Dalish codex entry is.

But yet we should believe the Human entry that was written by a Human and a Chantry one at that.

The way the Chantry was prepared to declare an Exulted March against the Dwarves because their only brother who was not wanted there was killed in a riot seems to be similar to the Dalish story of how the Chantry were forcing their religion on the Elves even when the Elves disagreed and when they didn't convert an Exulted March was declared.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You know historical justifications aside, you're really jumping the gun assuming the Inquisition, even one with a Dalish leader, will be going to war against humanity on behalf of all elves. It was created to stop the Veil tear, not settle ancient elven grudges. If there is an elven rebellion in Orlais, you have no idea if supporting them will even be an option, much less only them.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 septembre 2013 - 11:55 .