1256 réponses à ce sujet

[Gwydden]

ianvillan wrote...
But yet we should believe the Human entry that was written by a Human and a Chantry one at that.

Because the elven entry conveniently leaves them innocent of all blame and once again throw it all at the feet of those dirty, problematic shem, while the human version actually makes sense, it's written in a more neutral tone, admits both parties had guilt in the matter and narrates actual historical facts that couldn't just have been made up without everyone noticing.

Modifié par Gwydden, 23 septembre 2013 - 11:55 .

[ianvillan]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know historical justifications aside, you're really jumping the gun assuming the Inquisition, even one with a Dalish leader, will be going to war on behalf of all elves. It was created to stop the Veil tear, not settle ancient elven grudges. If there is an elven rebellion, you have no idea if supporting them will even be an option, much less only them.

So the inquisition wont be settling the ancient grudge between mages and Templars.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Little bit of a different situation there, we know much less about the political situation in Orlais at the moment. Although to be fair, we don't know exactly how the Inquisitor will be able to deal with that either.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 septembre 2013 - 12:03 .

[ianvillan]

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
But yet we should believe the Human entry that was written by a Human and a Chantry one at that.

Because the elven entry conveniently leaves them innocent of all blame and once again throw it all at the feet of those dirty, problematic shem, while the human version actually makes sense, it's written in a more neutral tone, admits both parties had guilt in the matter and narrates actual historical facts that couldn't just have been made up without everyone noticing.

Yet in it the Elves had the biggest guilt in an attack on Orlais where all the Orlisians did was want to spread the true religion but the Elves were too stubborn to except it and Orlais was just sending the Templars to protect their brothers from being killed by the Heathen Elves.

I suppose that the Dwarves were guilty when the brother was killed and an Exulted March which would of resulted in war and hundreds of deaths was justified because the Dwarves were guilty. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
The Chantry and Orlais haven't given a damn about the Elves because the Elves are broken and scattered with no homeland and forced to rely on Humans to survive and to obey human laws. But I know that if the Elves ever got a homeland and became united that the Chantry and Orlais will view them as a threat and will not allow them to live how they want.

The Dales remained unmolested by humans for centuries, and was way more powerful than any elven nation that could be created in the present. The Exalted March was not called until the Dalish marched on Val Royeaux, the seat of the White Chantry.

But before the Elves supposedly attacked the Chantry and Orlais did not respect the laws of the Elves and wanted them to follow their religion and it was them who sent in Templars to force their priests in to the Dales.

Don't forget it was not long ago that Orlais and the Chantry were prepared to declare an Exulted March against the Dwarves because their only brother was killed in a riot.

Don't use that Dalish codex entry for anything else than toilet paper. It is utterly worthless as a source for historical debate as anyhting else than a retelling of an Elvish saga. Actually, I think I can wring more historical context out of an actual viking saga, than that piece of trash the Dalish codex entry is.

But yet we should believe the Human entry that was written by a Human and a Chantry one at that.

The way the Chantry was prepared to declare an Exulted March against the Dwarves because their only brother who was not wanted there was killed in a riot seems to be similar to the Dalish story of how the Chantry were forcing their religion on the Elves even when the Elves disagreed and when they didn't convert an Exulted March was declared.

No of course not. Only a fool would take any source at face value, without first considering bias, and a truckload of other factors. However, the human ones, at least offer historical context, and are only a transcript of other histoical documents. However, the Dalish appears to be an unabridged whole retelling of how a Dalish (who is by the way extremely anti-human) sees the whole sequence of events. It is very simply, useless in historical debates, it does however, offer great insight into Dalish culture and their relations to other nations and races. However, for matter at hand? Not so much.

[Gwydden]

ianvillan wrote...
Yet in it the Elves had the biggest guilt in an attack on Orlais where all the Orlisians did was want to spread the true religion but the Elves were too stubborn to except it and Orlais was just sending the Templars to protect their brothers from being killed by the Heathen Elves.

What?

In the elven versions all it says is that the Chantry sent missionaries to the Dales, and when these were thrown out, "templars followed".

In the orlesian version, tensions in the border between Orlais and the Dales escalate to the Dalish attacking Red Crossing and eventually sacking Val Royeaux.

The elven version completely ignores these facts, and if you confront the storyteller in Zathrian's camp in Origins by stating that the dalish attacked first, all he does is get angry and gives no explanation.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
But yet we should believe the Human entry that was written by a Human and a Chantry one at that.

Because the elven entry conveniently leaves them innocent of all blame and once again throw it all at the feet of those dirty, problematic shem, while the human version actually makes sense, it's written in a more neutral tone, admits both parties had guilt in the matter and narrates actual historical facts that couldn't just have been made up without everyone noticing.

Yet in it the Elves had the biggest guilt in an attack on Orlais where all the Orlisians did was want to spread the true religion but the Elves were too stubborn to except it and Orlais was just sending the Templars to protect their brothers from being killed by the Heathen Elves.

I suppose that the Dwarves were guilty when the brother was killed and an Exulted March which would of resulted in war and hundreds of deaths was justified because the Dwarves were guilty. 

Actually there is no historical record of Templars being present in the Dales, prior to the Exalted March. So...... Yea.... Dalish entry....

[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
The Chantry and Orlais haven't given a damn about the Elves because the Elves are broken and scattered with no homeland and forced to rely on Humans to survive and to obey human laws. But I know that if the Elves ever got a homeland and became united that the Chantry and Orlais will view them as a threat and will not allow them to live how they want.

The Dales remained unmolested by humans for centuries, and was way more powerful than any elven nation that could be created in the present. The Exalted March was not called until the Dalish marched on Val Royeaux, the seat of the White Chantry.

But before the Elves supposedly attacked the Chantry and Orlais did not respect the laws of the Elves and wanted them to follow their religion and it was them who sent in Templars to force their priests in to the Dales.

Don't forget it was not long ago that Orlais and the Chantry were prepared to declare an Exulted March against the Dwarves because their only brother was killed in a riot.

Don't use that Dalish codex entry for anything else than toilet paper. It is utterly worthless as a source for historical debate as anyhting else than a retelling of an Elvish saga. Actually, I think I can wring more historical context out of an actual viking saga, than that piece of trash the Dalish codex entry is.

But yet we should believe the Human entry that was written by a Human and a Chantry one at that.

The way the Chantry was prepared to declare an Exulted March against the Dwarves because their only brother who was not wanted there was killed in a riot seems to be similar to the Dalish story of how the Chantry were forcing their religion on the Elves even when the Elves disagreed and when they didn't convert an Exulted March was declared.

No of course not. Only a fool would take any source at face value, without first considering bias, and a truckload of other factors. However, the human ones, at least offer historical context, and are only a transcript of other histoical documents. However, the Dalish appears to be an unabridged whole retelling of how a Dalish (who is by the way extremely anti-human) sees the whole sequence of events. It is very simply, useless in historical debates, it does however, offer great insight into Dalish culture and their relations to other nations and races. However, for matter at hand? Not so much.

historical documents that were written by the victors who also destroyed all of the losers documents and who had just come out of a major war wiped out a people and their culture and had then had to justify the war and vilify the losers.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

As I said before, since the Dalish entry skips directly from "templars" to "exiled from Halmshiral." I strongly believe the templars it mentions are supposed to be the Exalted March itself.

[Gwydden]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

As I said before, since the Dalish entry skips directly from "templars" to "exiled from Halmshiral." I strongly believe the templars it mentions are supposed to be the Exalted March itself.

I'm sure that to the dalish, the fact that between the missionaries and the templars they sacked human cities and murdered innocents is rather irrelevant.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

historical documents that were written by the victors who also destroyed all of the losers documents and who had just come out of a major war wiped out a people and their culture and had then had to justify the war and vilify the losers.

Yet researched by people (genitivi amongst others) by people who have in the past and future had no problem calling out the Chantry and the rest of Thedas when they had been doing wrong. It is all in the detail, and the fact that the Dalish refuses to even accept part of the blame for the war, simply serves to prove how utterly useless it is.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 septembre 2013 - 12:13 .

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If they have the backing of the Inquisition, then the Dalish Inquisitor deal with any potential enemies. 

I suspect almost every human in the world would be too much even for the Inquisitor... but if he can befriend/persuade human nations into accepting the dalish, sure, why not. 

I think the Mage-Templar War and the veil tear are bigger concerns for the rest of Thedas.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 septembre 2013 - 12:15 .

[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

historical documents that were written by the victors who also destroyed all of the losers documents and who had just come out of a major war wiped out a people and their culture and had then had to justify the war and vilify the losers.

Yet researched by people (genitivi amongst others) by people who have in the past and future had no problem calling out the Chantry and the rest of Thedas when they had been doing wrong. It is all in the detail, and the fact that the Dalish refuses to even accept part of the blame for the war, simply serves to prove how utterly useless it is.

I accept the Dalish are guilty in part to what happened but to the Chantry and Orlais it was the Elves who attacked first and they did no wrong. Yet the Chantry and Orlais who are known to try and force their religion on other parties and who have proven to want to declare Exulted Marches when their brothers are attacked did not try to force their brothers in to the Dales and back them up with Templars.

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

But yet we should believe the Human entry that was written by a Human and a Chantry one at that. 

Because the elven entry conveniently leaves them innocent of all blame and once again throw it all at the feet of those dirty, problematic shem, while the human version actually makes sense, it's written in a more neutral tone, admits both parties had guilt in the matter and narrates actual historical facts that couldn't just have been made up without everyone noticing. 

The Dalish entry makes sense, and you're being more than a little dishonest in saying that the Chantry version is neutral. The imperialistic empire that was invading it's neighbors during its inception, and centuries later, as Kirkwall, Nevarra, and Ferelden can attest to, might have invaded another neighboring country.

[ianvillan]

A new Elven homeland in the Dales that welcomes all the mages from Thedas and guaranteeing them freedom and a voice would be a force to be reckoned with especially if they could also make treaty's with Feralden and other nations.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

As I said before, since the Dalish entry skips directly from "templars" to "exiled from Halmshiral." I strongly believe the templars it mentions are supposed to be the Exalted March itself.

The elven Warden can also say that the Chantry invaded the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert.

There's more than simply the Orlesian version to the fall of the Dales, no matter how much the Chantry supporters in this thread detest it.

[cjones91]

At this point I believe Orlais and the Chantry would have attacked the Dales no matter what.The dalish just gave them the perfect excuse by kicking out their missionaries.

[cjones91]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

As I said before, since the Dalish entry skips directly from "templars" to "exiled from Halmshiral." I strongly believe the templars it mentions are supposed to be the Exalted March itself.

The elven Warden can also say that the Chantry invaded the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert.

There's more than simply the Orlesian version to the fall of the Dales, no matter how much the Chantry supporters in this thread detest it.

It's funny how they think the Chantry's version is complete and utter gospel while ignoring Orlais' reputation of invading other countries.

[ianvillan]

cjones91 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

As I said before, since the Dalish entry skips directly from "templars" to "exiled from Halmshiral." I strongly believe the templars it mentions are supposed to be the Exalted March itself.

The elven Warden can also say that the Chantry invaded the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert.

There's more than simply the Orlesian version to the fall of the Dales, no matter how much the Chantry supporters in this thread detest it.

It's funny how they think the Chantry's version is complete and utter gospel while ignoring Orlais' reputation of invading other countries.

Or how Orlais wanted to declare an exulted march on the dwarves which would of cost the lives of maybe thousands and done untold damage. Yet want us to believe Orlais only declare them when they are attacked and anyone who says differently is lying.

[cjones91]

ianvillan wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

As I said before, since the Dalish entry skips directly from "templars" to "exiled from Halmshiral." I strongly believe the templars it mentions are supposed to be the Exalted March itself.

The elven Warden can also say that the Chantry invaded the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert.

There's more than simply the Orlesian version to the fall of the Dales, no matter how much the Chantry supporters in this thread detest it.

It's funny how they think the Chantry's version is complete and utter gospel while ignoring Orlais' reputation of invading other countries.

Or how Orlais wanted to declare an exulted march on the dwarves which would of cost the lives of maybe thousands and done untold damage. Yet want us to believe Orlais only declare them when they are attacked and anyone who says differently is lying.

Yeah,it's kind of funny how spin works when you can ignore evidence that contradicts your story.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Except they didn't actually declare an Exalted March on Orzammar.That's very different from actually calling one where the people rally to answer.

The Chantry send missionaries to the Dales and they were expelled. Later a war followed. That's not contested in either version. To they Dalish they would likely see that as the main reason for why the war that followed, regardless of how big of a role that played in the casus belli. The two accounts aren't that far away, they just interpret the events differently.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 septembre 2013 - 01:25 .

[azarhal]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Little bit of a different situation there, we know much less about the political situation in Orlais at the moment. Although to be fair, we don't know exactly how the Inquisitor will be able to deal with that either.

It's also possible that the Inquisitor isn't going to fix the political situations. The game plot could be about building the Inquisition, closing fade portals, investigating the veil tears, investigating mysteries and unearthing the "bad guy" only.

[In Exile]

ianvillan wrote...

A new Elven homeland in the Dales that welcomes all the mages from Thedas and guaranteeing them freedom and a voice would be a force to be reckoned with especially if they could also make treaty's with Feralden and other nations.

So after the elves forcibly eject every human from the Dales they ... invite every human mage back? To be equal participants in a political system made up of humans and elves? If the goal is a secular human-elf state in the Dales, there's no need for an actual conflict. And if the Dales are taken by force through the horrific massacres of the humans living there, the idea that human mages would want to live there - or even that the elves would let them live there as something other than second class citizens - is pretty ridiculous. 

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

As I said before, since the Dalish entry skips directly from "templars" to "exiled from Halmshiral." I strongly believe the templars it mentions are supposed to be the Exalted March itself.

The elven Warden can also say that the Chantry invaded the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert.

There's more than simply the Orlesian version to the fall of the Dales, no matter how much the Chantry supporters in this thread detest it.

The dwarf and human warden can say that too, because it's just a random piece of dialogue that allows the player to express an opinion. The idea that protagonist dialogue options somehow count as evidence at all - in any case ad any way - is silIy. 

[BlueMagitek]

cjones91 wrote...

It's funny how they think the Chantry's version is complete and utter gospel while ignoring Orlais' reputation of invading other countries.

Not so much utter gospel, but it doesn't make sense for a country still in recovery from the damage dealt by the Second Blight (Orlais) to purposefully antagonize a nation that had sat out the Second Blight (and was therefore more or less pristine). 

Orlais' reputation of invasion went along the lines of "Oh, you need help in a blight? Sure thing!" and then not leaving.