1256 réponses à ce sujet

[azarhal]

Reaverwind wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks that the dalish might not be that willing on ally with the mages, or even worse letting human mages stay in their lands? The magisters were the ones who destroyed the the first elven homeland and enslaved their race. While magister =/= human mages, I'd still be wary of mages. The fact that the dalish/elven plot seems to be related directly to the OCW and not the M-TW might mean that the dalish choose to be neutral.

Nope. The Dalish have proven to be islolationists. It also occurs to me that the heart of the conflict between the Dales and Orlais goes back further than some think. I couldn't help but notice where it's located and wonder if Maferath hadn't given away land he had no right to give. While it wasn't heavily populated, there were other people there first.

Technically, Maferath gave the elves lands that he conquered. It's also unclear who owned those lands before the Imperium conquered them. The Ciriane tribes, who founded Orlais, might have been the original owners, but the lore isn't clear on this.

[Reaverwind]

azarhal wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks that the dalish might not be that willing on ally with the mages, or even worse letting human mages stay in their lands? The magisters were the ones who destroyed the the first elven homeland and enslaved their race. While magister =/= human mages, I'd still be wary of mages. The fact that the dalish/elven plot seems to be related directly to the OCW and not the M-TW might mean that the dalish choose to be neutral.

Nope. The Dalish have proven to be islolationists. It also occurs to me that the heart of the conflict between the Dales and Orlais goes back further than some think. I couldn't help but notice where it's located and wonder if Maferath hadn't given away land he had no right to give. While it wasn't heavily populated, there were other people there first.

Technically, Maferath gave the elves lands that he conquered. It's also unclear who owned those lands before the Imperium conquered them. The Ciriane tribes, who founded Orlais, might have been the original owners, but the lore isn't clear on this.

Yes, however, the fact he gave those lands away was bound to create a great deal of resentment, especially if the previous inhabitants get evicted thanks to the new owners' xenophobia. Adding to the fire would be the fact that Maferath was reviled even by his own people after Andraste's death.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 24 septembre 2013 - 10:22 .

[The Elder King]

@ianvillain: it seems that bioware will put elves and mages in separate plots. Though it's too early ho say if and how the various factions will be related to each others.
I'm not against a possible alliance between elves and mages, I just think (as you said as well) that is unlikely.

[ianvillan]

hhh89 wrote...

@ianvillain: it seems that bioware will put elves and mages in separate plots. Though it's too early ho say if and how the various factions will be related to each others.
I'm not against a possible alliance between elves and mages, I just think (as you said as well) that is unlikely.

I think Bioware will have them in separate plots which is okay and the chances of it happening have to be the lowest of all the outcomes for the Mages and Elves.

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks that the dalish might not be that willing on ally with the mages, or even worse letting human mages stay in their lands? The magisters were the ones who destroyed the the first elven homeland and enslaved their race. While magister =/= human mages, I'd still be wary of mages. The fact that the dalish/elven plot seems to be related directly to the OCW and not the M-TW might mean that the dalish choose to be neutral.

I suppose it varies on the person, especially since Ariane implies that the Circle of Magi played a part in the fall of the Dales, and the loss of some of their lore. Merrill was sympathetic to the plight of the mages, including the Starkhaven mages and the Circle of Kirkwall during the Right of Annulment, but I'm sure others would have varying opinions on the matter. I think that the Dalish would be interested in restoring their culture if they regained control of the kingdom of the Dales, rather than the political situation of the schism between mages and templars. The two might end up as allies if the templars target them both, however.

[The Elder King]

@Lobsel: Being sympathetic is one thing. Allying spontaneusly with them, or let them live in their lands is another. I don't think dalish will be against the mages, but they'll probably not help them in war (as you said). And if the dalish are involved in the OCW, I doubt that the mages would want to partecipate.
An alliance based on a templar's threat might be possible, but I doubt that the main templar organization would risk to attack different factions that could ally against them. Don't know about the red templars though.

Modifié par hhh89, 24 septembre 2013 - 11:00 .

[LobselVith8]

Reaverwind wrote...

Nope. The Dalish have proven to be islolationists. It also occurs to me that the heart of the conflict between the Dales and Orlais goes back further than some think. I couldn't help but notice where it's located and wonder if Maferath hadn't given away land he had no right to give. While it wasn't heavily populated, there were other people there first. 

There's no mention of humans inhabiting the area. In fact, the Dales was fairly distant from other regions, and it took a long trek for the elves to make it there - to the point where some of them died of starvation, and a few even turned back to Tevinter because of how long the exodus was:

"We walked with what little we had on our backs. Some walked without shoes, for they had none. Whole families, women with infants, the old and young alike--all of them made their way across the land on foot. Many perished along the way. Some died of exhaustion, others simply gave up and fell by the wayside. A great number were set upon by human bandits, even though we had few possessions. Some turned back toward Tevinter. But most of us continued walking. And the gods rewarded those of us who did not waver by bringing us to the Dales. And for a time, it was home."

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

At which parts do you claim the human entry to be either incorrect or outright lying? Which parts exactly is it that you doubt?

How the Chantry version say they tried to go into the Elven lands for trade and discourse but no mention of them trying to send missionaries even thought the whole chantry faith is based on the maker only returning if there is no worship of false gods. They say the Elves became isolationist and guarded their borders with jealousy, and how the Elves captured Humans and sacrificed them to there gods. (the same things they say about Tevinter to get their exulted march against them).

They say how the Elves attacked a defenceless city of red crossing which caused the chantry to declare an exulted march, no word of boarder disputes or rising tensions and small skirmishes, just that the Elves did an attack on defenceless Humans.

Take in to account the written information from the chantry about the city elves. It starts of by talking about the holy exulted march on the dales that resulted in the dissolution of the elven kingdom, not destruction or the wiping out of elven history and culture just a dissolution.

Then it goes on to say how the divine declared that all lands loyal to the chantry must take give the elves refuge in its walls and this wasa testament to the chantrys charity considering the atrocity the elves committed at red crossing. 

It says how some elves refused the chantrys goodwill and banded together in hatred of humans and to this day still terrorise humans who stray too close to camp yet most elves saw it wisest to stay under Human protection.

It then goes on to say that they took the elves into there city's and tried to integrate them how they invited them into their homes and gave them jobs as servants and farm hands. how most have proven to be productive members of society but a small segment remains dissatisfied and these trouble makers and malcontents roam the streets and cause mayhem and rebelling against authority.

So it is how the chantry was innocent and did no wrong and in there charity took the elves who were the only ones to commit atrocities and gave them places to live and a job as servants but they are still not happy.

These two were written by the same person so how can you say the first account is neutral when the second shows bias against the elves and sees the chantry as doing no wrong.

You are of course aware of the fact, that all the information about the Dales and the Exalted March taht we got available, are from human sources, right? The fact that we know of the border disputes prior to the war, is thanks to the human historians, that the Chantry falsely (presumably) claimed the Dalish made human sacrifices is also, from a human historian. Basically all the useful knowledge about that period, comes from humans. The Dalish has contributed with nothing useful in solving the mystery of what truly happened in that time.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Nope. The Dalish have proven to be islolationists. It also occurs to me that the heart of the conflict between the Dales and Orlais goes back further than some think. I couldn't help but notice where it's located and wonder if Maferath hadn't given away land he had no right to give. While it wasn't heavily populated, there were other people there first. 

There's no mention of humans inhabiting the area. In fact, the Dales was fairly distant from other regions, and it took a long trek for the elves to make it there - to the point where some of them died of starvation, and a few even turned back to Tevinter because of how long the exodus was:

"We walked with what little we had on our backs. Some walked without shoes, for they had none. Whole families, women with infants, the old and young alike--all of them made their way across the land on foot. Many perished along the way. Some died of exhaustion, others simply gave up and fell by the wayside. A great number were set upon by human bandits, even though we had few possessions. Some turned back toward Tevinter. But most of us continued walking. And the gods rewarded those of us who did not waver by bringing us to the Dales. And for a time, it was home."

So for some reasons humans would not live in what would become the Dales, when they had obviously inhabited lands even further away, in what would become Ferelden? Yeah, that doesn't make any sense at all. Especially not given how fertile the Dales seems to be, and the fact that the Tevinter Imperium colonized the area during its prime...

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So for some reasons humans would not live in what would become the Dales, when they had obviously inhabited lands even further away, in what would become Ferelden? Yeah, that doesn't make any sense at all. Especially not given how fertile the Dales seems to be, and the fact that the Tevinter Imperium colonized the area during its prime...

There's still no reference to any humans inhabiting the area that was bestowed to the elves by Andraste's sons, after the execution of Andraste and Shartan by the Imperium. In fact, the area that would become the Dales is simply mentioned to be on the fringe of the Imperium.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So for some reasons humans would not live in what would become the Dales, when they had obviously inhabited lands even further away, in what would become Ferelden? Yeah, that doesn't make any sense at all. Especially not given how fertile the Dales seems to be, and the fact that the Tevinter Imperium colonized the area during its prime...

There's still no reference to any humans inhabiting the area that was bestowed to the elves by Andraste's sons, after the execution of Andraste and Shartan by the Imperium. In fact, the area that would become the Dales is simply mentioned to be on the fringe of the Imperium.

There isn't any reference of humans not living there, and since we know that humans lived far beyond the Dales in all directions practically, the logical conclusion, would be that humans did live there, before the area was granted to the Elves. Elves probably also lived there before the humans settled there, in the days of Arlathan, but Arlathan had long since ceased to exist.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, while the territory that would become the Dales looked like it may have been generally in the area belonging to the Ciriane tribes, I personally believe that it was probably either sparely or not at all inhabited at the time. Presumably this is why Maferath and Andraste granted it to the Shartan's successors. In fact it's possible Shartan may have had a hand in choosing it, because I think the agreement came while Andraste was alive.

But frankly, none of that is important. Humans live there now. It doesn't matter if they lived there before the Dales. Violently removing the inhabitants so the elves could live in a territory that hadn't been their country for centuries would be ethnic cleaning. It's not like elves would need a homeland to be on the same spot as the ruins of their last one, especially since that last one was only their adopted homeland to begin with.

Given the sheer number of homes and lives that would be destroyed in the process to cleansing one or more entire cities, I'd say it would be much closer to genocide than the Right of Annulment was.

Violent persecution of elves doesn't make it OK for them to do the same to others because it benefits them instead. I don't think it was ok for Orlais to conquer and destroy the Dales in order to prevent the elves from ever sacking Val'Royeaux again either., even if the Fall of the Dales did protect the Orlesian people better than before.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 septembre 2013 - 12:37 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's still no reference to any humans inhabiting the area that was bestowed to the elves by Andraste's sons, after the execution of Andraste and Shartan by the Imperium. In fact, the area that would become the Dales is simply mentioned to be on the fringe of the Imperium. 

There isn't any reference of humans not living there, and since we know that humans lived far beyond the Dales in all directions practically, the logical conclusion, would be that humans did live there, before the area was granted to the Elves. Elves probably also lived there before the humans settled there, in the days of Arlathan, but Arlathan had long since ceased to exist. 

The logical conclusion is actually that we don't know, since it's never addressed.

[azarhal]

Reaverwind wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks that the dalish might not be that willing on ally with the mages, or even worse letting human mages stay in their lands? The magisters were the ones who destroyed the the first elven homeland and enslaved their race. While magister =/= human mages, I'd still be wary of mages. The fact that the dalish/elven plot seems to be related directly to the OCW and not the M-TW might mean that the dalish choose to be neutral.

Nope. The Dalish have proven to be islolationists. It also occurs to me that the heart of the conflict between the Dales and Orlais goes back further than some think. I couldn't help but notice where it's located and wonder if Maferath hadn't given away land he had no right to give. While it wasn't heavily populated, there were other people there first.

Technically, Maferath gave the elves lands that he conquered. It's also unclear who owned those lands before the Imperium conquered them. The Ciriane tribes, who founded Orlais, might have been the original owners, but the lore isn't clear on this.

Yes, however, the fact he gave those lands away was bound to create a great deal of resentment, especially if the previous inhabitants get evicted thanks to the new owners' xenophobia. Adding to the fire would be the fact that Maferath was reviled even by his own people after Andraste's death.

We don't have much information about that time period for that region beside the story of the Mother of Orlais. But it's a good question what did the Ciriane tribes though of "losing" the Dales if they were the original settles in the area. Maybe that is what triggered the "hatred" of Jeshavis. Maferath was already dead, but she could still take care of his sons and unite everyone so one day Orlais can retake the Dales...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Jashavis was said to be more concerned about protecting her people from the Imperium and (supposedly) ensuring that they weren't ruled by Alemarri dynasties.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But frankly, none of that is important. Humans live there now. It doesn't matter if they lived there before the Dales. Violently removing the inhabitants so the elves could live in a territory that hadn't been their country for centuries wouldbe ethnic cleaning. It's not like elves would need a homeland to be on the same spot as the ruins of their last one, especially since that last one was only their adopted homeland to begin with.

Considering an independent Dales would be the only safe haven for elves in a continent occupied by humans in societies where Dalish elves are either hunted down or Alienage elves are restricted to ghettos where they can be massacred down to the children any time they protest their plight, I don't see how it fits the parameters of 'ethnic cleansing' to give the elves a safe community where they can truly be free.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Given the sheer number of homes and lives that would be destroyed in the process to cleansing one or more entire cities, I'd say it would be much closer to genocide than the Right of Annulment was.

Relocation doesn't mandate death.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Violent persecution of elves doesn't make it OK for them to do the same to others because it benefits them instead. I don't think it was ok for Orlais to conquer and destroy the Dales in order to prevent the elves from ever sacking Val'Royeaux again either., even if the Fall of the Dales did protect the Orlesian people better than before. 

Violent prosecution of elves is why I want to give them a sanctuary with a Dalish Inquisitor, especially when it seems there's an elven rebellion stirring in occupied Dales. A homeland would give them safety and security from a society that is violently hostile towards heathens and denigrates elves as less than people.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 25 septembre 2013 - 01:04 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering an independent Dales would be the only safe haven for elves in a continent occupied by humans in societies where Dalish elves are either hunted down or Alienage elves are restricted to ghettos where they can be massacred down to the children any time they protest their plight, I don't see how it fits the parameters of 'ethnic cleansing' to give the elves a safe community where they can truly be free.

Violent prosecution of elves is why I want to give them a sanctuary with a Dalish Inquisitor, especially when it seems there's an elven rebellion stirring in occupied Dales. A homeland would give them safety and security from a society that is violently hostile towards heathens and denigrates elves as less than people.

It is not the "Occupied Dales"...it's just Orlais. The people of the Dales have been long gone. The only elves living there now are city elves. They are not elves of the Dales anymore, they are Orleisan elves.

There's nothing special about the Dales in terms of being a haven for elves. If you wanted to expel all the native humans from somewhere to repopulate it with elves, you could theoretically do that anywhere.

The idea of ending violent persecution for elves by "retaking the Dales" is would inherently invovle violent persecution of humans.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Relocation doesn't mandate death.

It will still result in mass death and destruction. It is inevitable. It is impossible to carry out forcible removal of an entire population without it.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering an independent Dales would be the only safe haven for elves in a continent occupied by humans in societies where Dalish elves are either hunted down or Alienage elves are restricted to ghettos where they can be massacred down to the children any time they protest their plight, I don't see how it fits the parameters of 'ethnic cleansing' to give the elves a safe community where they can truly be free.

Violent prosecution of elves is why I want to give them a sanctuary with a Dalish Inquisitor, especially when it seems there's an elven rebellion stirring in occupied Dales. A homeland would give them safety and security from a society that is violently hostile towards heathens and denigrates elves as less than people.

It is not the "Occupied Dales"...it's just Orlais. The people of the Dales have been long gone. The only elves living there now are city elves. They are not elves of the Dales anymore, they are Orleisan elves.

I'm not sure the elves would agree.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There's nothing special about the Dales in terms of being a haven for elves. If you wanted to expel all the native humans from somewhere to repopulate it with elves, you could theoretically do that anywhere.

This discussion began as speculation on the protagonist helping the rebelling elves in the Dales who live under Orlesian rule, which may coincide with a gathering of the Dalish clans. Helping the elves is going to be the primary goal of my Dalish Inquisitor, and it makes perfect senses aid the elves in reclaiming the Dales.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The idea of ending violent persecution for elves by "retaking the Dales" is would inherently invovle violent persecution of humans.

It would involve giving the elves one single place in all of Thedas where they can be safe and free.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Relocation doesn't mandate death. 

It will still result in mass death and destruction. It is inevitable. It is impossible to carry out forcible removal of an entire population without it. 

I don't think any civilians need to die.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 25 septembre 2013 - 01:32 .

[BlueMagitek]

See, you keep saying "the elves" when you mean "the Dalish".

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 25 septembre 2013 - 01:34 .

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

See, you keep saying "the elves" when you mean "the Dalish".

The elves in the Dales may have started rebelling since Asunder, and Celene's storyline in the new novel seems to involve the elves - whom likely comprise more than simply the Dalish.

[BlueMagitek]

Oh, most likely, but you're acting as though every elf holds true to Dalish beliefs, which we know to not be true, or even *want* to join the Dalish in their endeavors. While the elves of Orlais might be rebelling, that doesn't mean they're going to insist on segregation from humans; if I run a city elf character, he will most certainly fight for the resolution that my deceased CE Warden managed to achieve in Ferelden.

Besides, there is already a place for elves to be free, just north of Tevinter.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not sure the elves would agree.

Well, individuals are going to have different opnions, but having been driven from two seperate places and wandering the entire contient for centuries, I don't think the Dalish at large necessarily asign any paramount importance to the specific territory of the Dales so much as a home in general. Some of them don't even care about settling down at all. The author of one of the  Dalish codex entries talks about preferring their nomadic lifestyle without being tied down anywhere. And the culture of the Dales is lost among city elves so I don't see the much reason for alienages in what used to be the Dales to be any different than city elves anywhere else in the world. Their culture is more based on the struggles they have now rather than whatever they used to be or where they used to be it. If there is an elf rebellion in Orlais, it could well just be in the name of better lives for themselves rather than any investment in "liberating" the Dales.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The idea of ending violent persecution for elves by "retaking the Dales" is would inherently invovle violent persecution of humans.

It would involve giving the elves one single place in all of Thedas where they can be safe and free.

Ok and THAT (at least the way you seem to envision going about doing it) would involve violent persecution of humans.

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think any civilians need to die.

I can't imagine how they wouldn't. Many elves died on the Long March to get to the Dales in the first place. Probably a fair amount died when the Dales were conquered and many elves were scattered. Forcibly removing people from their homes on a such a massive scale always requires it.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 septembre 2013 - 02:54 .

[Nightdragon8]

TTTX wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A book, once written, remains unchanged for generations to come.

True, but just because it's written doesn't mean it's true or hasn't been added or erazsed some of the facts to suit a certain need.
Like if the Templars annulled a circle out of fear or on the orders of the chantry  even though the circle wasn't a threat, I can imagine they probably isn't going to writ in a book they made a mistake.

A book is only as truthfull as the author and if the facts/evidence support the claims it makes. Just saying:whistle: 

sorry completely untrue, just look at the "Holy Bible" what version are we current;y using? it seems that every year they change the wording of the bible, I know at least 3 diferent changes, 1968, 1982, 1993, all with different words and how the infomation is given. Each with there own changes. That also not counting versions like "The living Bible" and the likes, So just because it's writen in books doesn't mean it can't change.

Also as the saying goes, History is writen by the victor. A 100% neutrual history is pretty much unheard of.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In case you haven't noticed it after months (years?) of advocating and defending genocide and ethnic cleansing as a moral policy imperative, LobselVith8 is silly. 

To put it extremely nicely. 

I don't support genocide; I abhor the Right of Annulment, actually. I support mage autonomy from a religious organization that gave templars dominion over mages by divine right and vilified mages as religious instruction; I condemn slavery.

'Ethnic cleansing' seems to be the buzzword for people who want to vilify the concept of the elves getting back their homeland from the Orlesian Empire; a restored homeland where elven men, women, and children won't be killed in purges en mass, since real cleansings happen in the Alienages across the continent. Elves are seen as less than people by Andrastians (via Duncan), and they are limited to roles of servitude, being confined to impoverished areas of destitution; a homeland can give them do much more than centuries of human oppression ever allowed.

I don't think it's silly to overthrow the Orlesian Empire from the Dales and give the elves a place where they can freely follow their religion, and be something more than slaves or servants to humans.

Silly people rarely see their silliness. Your post right here is a good example.

[dragondreamer]

I imagine that even if the Dales is reclaimed, there will still be Dalish who wander (IN FACT, I wouldn't be surprised if the ones who keep wandering are the ones who will accept nothing less than complete isolation from humans) and there will still be elves in alienages throughout Thedas, just as many elves remained slaves in Tevinter after they were given the Dales the first time.

BUT, just like the first time, there would be many elves from all corners of Thedas who would go.

I just think the elves have suffered enough, been kicked around by humans time and again. If the city elves and the Dalish have an alliance going on, I think of the level of "sick and tired of this" has reached a major tipping point. Humans had ages and ages of time to improve their treatment of elves, preventing this problem from appearing on their doorsteps. The chickens are coming home to roost.

If given the chance, my Dalish mage Inquisitor will ally with both the elven rebels and the Circle rebels, retake the Dales, and raise all kinds of hell with the Chantry (and especially the Templars). Oh yes, he's going to be an absolute NIGHTMARE for the Chantry.