1256 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

ianvillan wrote...

After the missionaries were refused they then sent Templars, are we to believe that the Templars they sent to ensure the missionaries got through never drew their swords and attacked the Elves, Who's to say the Elves attack on Red Crossing was not in provocation for Templars attacking one of their towns.

Why on earth would Templars sent to protect missionaries decide to launch an attack on a town?  If that was their purpose, they couldn't have been prepared to wage a military compaign.  It makes little sense...  Unless the elves attacked the missionaries with violence, in which case they were perfectly justified in defending themselves.

[ianvillan]

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
After the missionaries were refused they then sent Templars, are we to believe that the Templars they sent to ensure the missionaries got through never drew their swords and attacked the Elves, Who's to say the Elves attack on Red Crossing was not in provocation for Templars attacking one of their towns.

Maybe but since the purpose of the Chantry is conversion; which requires their subject to have a pulse; while the purpose of the elves is "avoid or kill the plaguebearer humans", I'm going to say that whatever the Chantry did can't compare to what the elves did while they had the upper hand.

Plus, orlesian citizens are, in no way, affiliated with the Chantry or its Templars and are thus not an acceptable military target.

The purpose of the Chantry is conversion and they achieved that goal while practically destroying another religion.

We only know that the current Dalish Elves are avoid or kill Human Plague bearers we only know the old Elves wanted to be left alone which the Chantry ignored.

What did the Elves do when they had the upper hand and how does that compare to what the Chantry and Orlais do to the Elves, they enslaved the majority of the survivors they destroyed their history and culture and wiped out their city's. and they destroyed their religion that doesn't take into account any atrocities they might of committed in the war.

[maliluka]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The implication was that the missionaries were being violently mistreated/thrown out. ~_^

That's the point, the missionaries really had no real reason to be there other than trying to convert the Elves. Just imagine if a Dalish had went to Orlais and tried to get people convert, I think "violently mistreated" would be the least of the elves worries. 

You poke enough at something and sooner or later its going to snap back

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

After the missionaries were refused they then sent Templars, are we to believe that the Templars they sent to ensure the missionaries got through never drew their swords and attacked the Elves, Who's to say the Elves attack on Red Crossing was not in provocation for Templars attacking one of their towns.

Why on earth would Templars sent to protect missionaries decide to launch an attack on a town?  If that was their purpose, they couldn't have been prepared to wage a military compaign.  It makes little sense...  Unless the elves attacked the missionaries with violence, in which case they were perfectly justified in defending themselves.

So if the missionaries wanted to get into the town and the Elves said no like they had before the Templars would say ok we will go home now and wont bother you again. Or would the missionaries force their way in and the Templars back them with force.

You don't send your best military force into a foreign nation with the mission of making sure your missionaries get in to spread their religion if you are not going to use them.

[Medhia Nox]

@maliluka: So it's totally okay to attack someone if they're "too religious" or "too gay" or "too Republican" or "too liberal"?

"Those" people aren't coming into MY neighborhood! We'll show them!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I still the the templars the Chantry sent were the templars in the Exalted March.

Also, Orlais didn't enslave the survivors or destroy all their history. Most elven history was already lost by then and Elves in alienages are poor and destitute but they aren't slaves.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 septembre 2013 - 09:13 .

[Heimdall]

ianvillan wrote...
 they enslaved the majority of the survivors they destroyed their history and culture and wiped out their city's. and they destroyed their religion that doesn't take into account any atrocities they might of committed in the war.

Or any atrocities the elves might have committed.  Even if they weren't the aggressors, we know elves are just as capable of atrocities as humans.

Anyway, they were not enslaved

[MisterJB]

ianvillan wrote...
The purpose of the Chantry is conversion and they achieved that goal while practically destroying another religion.

After that other religion sacked its seat.
Maybe if the elves had just allowed one measly Chantry to be extablished into the Dales, this whole thing might have been averted. It wouldn't kill their culture.

We only know that the current Dalish Elves are avoid or kill Human Plague bearers we only know the old Elves wanted to be left alone which the Chantry ignored.

What did the Elves do when they had the upper hand and how does that compare to what the Chantry and Orlais do to the Elves, they enslaved the majority of the survivors they destroyed their history and culture and wiped out their city's. and they destroyed their religion that doesn't take into account any atrocities they might of committed in the war.

Ever since the time of Arlathan, the elven viewpoint is that humans are to blame for the loss of their immortality. So, we have racial hatred that stretches back a millenia plus a cultural justification for the slaugther of humans.
Shall I describe to you what happens when cities; such as Val-Royeaux; are sacked? It's not pretty.

And go dump slavery at Tevinter's doorstep. Orlesians hang slavers.

[ianvillan]

maliluka wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

The implication was that the missionaries were being violently mistreated/thrown out. ~_^

That's the point, the missionaries really had no real reason to be there other than trying to convert the Elves. Just imagine if a Dalish had went to Orlais and tried to get people convert, I think "violently mistreated" would be the least of the elves worries. 

You poke enough at something and sooner or later its going to snap back

Yes and then imagine if the Elves resent their missionaries this time backed up with their top military units with the intention of making sure their missionaries get in and are able to do what they want undisturbed, I believe it might be seen as an act of war.

[ianvillan]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I still the the templars the Chantry sent were the templars in the Exalted March.

Also, Orlais didn't enslave the survivors or destroy all their history. Most elven history was already lost by then and Elves in alienages are poor and destitute but they aren't slaves.

Even brother genivis says that Orlais practises slavery they just call it a different name.

[Heimdall]

ianvillan wrote...

So if the missionaries wanted to get into the town and the Elves said no like they had before the Templars would say ok we will go home now and wont bother you again. Or would the missionaries force their way in and the Templars back them with force.

You don't send your best military force into a foreign nation with the mission of making sure your missionaries get in to spread their religion if you are not going to use them.

Best military force?  The Templars are not an arm of Orlais, they aren't the best soldiers the chantry has, just the only ones the chantry has.  Who else would they send to make sure their missionaries don't get stoned in the street for trying to spread their religion?  Don't pretend the elves aren't violently xenophobic.

[ianvillan]

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
The purpose of the Chantry is conversion and they achieved that goal while practically destroying another religion.

After that other religion sacked its seat.
Maybe if the elves had just allowed one measly Chantry to be extablished into the Dales, this whole thing might have been averted. It wouldn't kill their culture.

We only know that the current Dalish Elves are avoid or kill Human Plague bearers we only know the old Elves wanted to be left alone which the Chantry ignored.

What did the Elves do when they had the upper hand and how does that compare to what the Chantry and Orlais do to the Elves, they enslaved the majority of the survivors they destroyed their history and culture and wiped out their city's. and they destroyed their religion that doesn't take into account any atrocities they might of committed in the war.

Ever since the time of Arlathan, the elven viewpoint is that humans are to blame for the loss of their immortality. So, we have racial hatred that stretches back a millenia plus a cultural justification for the slaugther of humans.
Shall I describe to you what happens when cities; such as Val-Royeaux; are sacked? It's not pretty.

And go dump slavery at Tevinter's doorstep. Orlesians hang slavers.

Would the Chantry and Orlais allow the Elves, the Dwarves or Qunari or old gods to be established in there city's surely it wouldn't kill their culture.

[Heimdall]

ianvillan wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I still the the templars the Chantry sent were the templars in the Exalted March.

Also, Orlais didn't enslave the survivors or destroy all their history. Most elven history was already lost by then and Elves in alienages are poor and destitute but they aren't slaves.

Even brother genivis says that Orlais practises slavery they just call it a different name.

Now give me the quote that says they enslaved most of the Dales.

[RepHope]

The elves brought all their troubles on themselves. They want to cut themselves off from the world, and that just will not happen. Ever. They have to learn to accept humans aren't going anywhere.

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

So if the missionaries wanted to get into the town and the Elves said no like they had before the Templars would say ok we will go home now and wont bother you again. Or would the missionaries force their way in and the Templars back them with force.

You don't send your best military force into a foreign nation with the mission of making sure your missionaries get in to spread their religion if you are not going to use them.

Best military force?  The Templars are not an arm of Orlais, they aren't the best soldiers the chantry has, just the only ones the chantry has.  Who else would they send to make sure their missionaries don't get stoned in the street for trying to spread their religion?  Don't pretend the elves aren't violently xenophobic.

The Templars are the arm of the Chantry they are used to tackle abominations and rogue mages because they are better than ordinary soldiers. The Chantry is Orlais that is why they were able to call an exulted march when the Elves attacked their capital because that is the head of the Chantry.

If you have a xenophobic and isolationist race of a different religion who hate you and are known for violence why would you keep sending people they have told you they don't want in their country and then try again this time backed by your military force.

[maliluka]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@maliluka: So it's totally okay to attack someone if they're "too religious" or "too gay" or "too Republican" or "too liberal"?

"Those" people aren't coming into MY neighborhood! We'll show them!

Where in my post did I mention anything about being to gay or religious or anything about a political affiliation?  I simply switched it around as if a Dalish was the missionary trying to convert other people to his religion do you not think he would have been burned at the stake.

[ianvillan]

RepHope wrote...

The elves brought all their troubles on themselves. They want to cut themselves off from the world, and that just will not happen. Ever. They have to learn to accept humans aren't going anywhere.

Why couldn't they Humans accept the Elves were not going anywhere and they practice a different religion and have no interest in the Human one.

[RepHope]

maliluka wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@maliluka: So it's totally okay to attack someone if they're "too religious" or "too gay" or "too Republican" or "too liberal"?

"Those" people aren't coming into MY neighborhood! We'll show them!

Where in my post did I mention anything about being to gay or religious or anything about a political affiliation?  I simply switched it around as if a Dalish was the missionary trying to convert other people to his religion do you not think he would have been burned at the stake.

Would never happen so the debate is pointless. I don't think the Elves believe in preaching to non-elves.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@maliluka: So it's totally okay to attack someone if they're "too religious" or "too gay" or "too Republican" or "too liberal"?

"Those" people aren't coming into MY neighborhood! We'll show them!

What are you going on about?It's okay if some country defends itself from invaders that are trying to possibly sneak in spies which is what the Dales would have thought.

[RepHope]

ianvillan wrote...

RepHope wrote...

The elves brought all their troubles on themselves. They want to cut themselves off from the world, and that just will not happen. Ever. They have to learn to accept humans aren't going anywhere.

Why couldn't they Humans accept the Elves were not going anywhere and they practice a different religion and have no interest in the Human one.

Who says the elves had no intrest? That's why the Chantry sent missionaries first. Not Templars, not an army, they sent missionaries, and I bet the Elves reacted violently. They probably saw it as an attack on their culture.

[MisterJB]

ianvillan wrote...
Would the Chantry and Orlais allow the Elves, the Dwarves or Qunari or old gods to be established in there city's surely it wouldn't kill their culture.

That situation is not equivalent. The elves had plenty of reason not to infuriate the dominant religion on the Continent (as the dwarven shaperate acknowledges) thus, it would be smart to attempt to coexist with it. The Chantry has no reason because they're already the dominant religion.
But the Chantry is actually far more open minded than you make it sound like:

"Signs of Ferelden's Alamarri barbarian roots persist, even as the Chantry has taken firm hold of the nation's social order. While Chantries stand in almost every village and town, signs of the old deities remain a common sight in Ferelden... The old ways are disappearing, but the Chantry does not demand their removal or promote hatred against the old deities. The Maker simply stand above them."
World of Thedas, page 47

The difference here is that the followers of the deities mentioned never attacked Andrastians unlike the Elven Phanteon, the Old Gods and the Qun.

[cjones91]

RepHope wrote...

The elves brought all their troubles on themselves. They want to cut themselves off from the world, and that just will not happen. Ever. They have to learn to accept humans aren't going anywhere.

So you think the elves deserve everything that's happened to them because they decided to stay out of everyone's business?What about the fact Orlais should have left them alone instead of trying to convert them to their religion.

[ianvillan]

RepHope wrote...

maliluka wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@maliluka: So it's totally okay to attack someone if they're "too religious" or "too gay" or "too Republican" or "too liberal"?

"Those" people aren't coming into MY neighborhood! We'll show them!

Where in my post did I mention anything about being to gay or religious or anything about a political affiliation?  I simply switched it around as if a Dalish was the missionary trying to convert other people to his religion do you not think he would have been burned at the stake.

Would never happen so the debate is pointless. I don't think the Elves believe in preaching to non-elves.

Yet people still defend the Chantry and Orlais for not respecting another sovereign nation and forcing their beliefs and customs on them and the same people thing the Elves were wrong for defying the Chantry and having their own beliefs.

[cjones91]

RepHope wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

RepHope wrote...

The elves brought all their troubles on themselves. They want to cut themselves off from the world, and that just will not happen. Ever. They have to learn to accept humans aren't going anywhere.

Why couldn't they Humans accept the Elves were not going anywhere and they practice a different religion and have no interest in the Human one.

Who says the elves had no intrest? That's why the Chantry sent missionaries first. Not Templars, not an army, they sent missionaries, and I bet the Elves reacted violently. They probably saw it as an attack on their culture.

Considering what happened to them afterwards I'll say the elves were correct in their assumption.

[wolfhowwl]

Sacking Val Royeux isn't staying out of everyone's business.