1256 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

ianvillan wrote...

RepHope wrote...

maliluka wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@maliluka: So it's totally okay to attack someone if they're "too religious" or "too gay" or "too Republican" or "too liberal"?

"Those" people aren't coming into MY neighborhood! We'll show them!

Where in my post did I mention anything about being to gay or religious or anything about a political affiliation?  I simply switched it around as if a Dalish was the missionary trying to convert other people to his religion do you not think he would have been burned at the stake.

Would never happen so the debate is pointless. I don't think the Elves believe in preaching to non-elves.

Yet people still defend the Chantry and Orlais for not respecting another sovereign nation and forcing their beliefs and customs on them and the same people thing the Elves were wrong for defying the Chantry and having their own beliefs.

Most Pro Chantry fans are smoewhat hypocritical when it comes to the actions of the Chantry.

[cjones91]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Sacking Val Royeux isn't staying out of everyone's business.

Again,that was the likely response of Orlais poking the bear until it got tired of being poked and attacked.

[Heimdall]

ianvillan wrote...

The Templars are the arm of the Chantry they are used to tackle abominations and rogue mages because they are better than ordinary soldiers. The Chantry is Orlais that is why they were able to call an exulted march when the Elves attacked their capital because that is the head of the Chantry.

First, the Templars are not the Grey Wardens.  They do not select their recruits from the best of Thedas, the join by volunteering or raised as orphans in a monastery.  Neither of which ensures military excellence.  Second, of course the Divine called an Exalted March when the Grand Cathedral was sacked along with the rest of the city, by heathens no less.  Orlais didn't call the march, they were just ready to attack the Dales anyway thanks to their capital being sacked and closest on hand.

If you have a xenophobic and isolationist race of a different religion who hate you and are known for violence why would you keep sending people they have told you they don't want in their country and then try again this time backed by your military force.

Because they believed they had a moral obligation to spread the word of the maker and the xenophobes had made it clear that their missionaries might not survive a second attempt?  An escort was in order.

[ianvillan]

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Would the Chantry and Orlais allow the Elves, the Dwarves or Qunari or old gods to be established in there city's surely it wouldn't kill their culture.

That situation is not equivalent. The elves had plenty of reason not to infuriate the dominant religion on the Continent (as the dwarven shaperate acknowledges) thus, it would be smart to attempt to coexist with it. The Chantry has no reason because they're already the dominant religion.
But the Chantry is actually far more open minded than you make it sound like:

"Signs of Ferelden's Alamarri barbarian roots persist, even as the Chantry has taken firm hold of the nation's social order. While Chantries stand in almost every village and town, signs of the old deities remain a common sight in Ferelden... The old ways are disappearing, but the Chantry does not demand their removal or promote hatred against the old deities. The Maker simply stand above them."
World of Thedas, page 47

The difference here is that the followers of the deities mentioned never attacked Andrastians unlike the Elven Phanteon, the Old Gods and the Qun.

So because another nation is bigger and stronger than yours you should back down to them and change your culture and beliefs. That sounds like bullying to me and yet we are to believe Orlais and the Chantry are innocent and did no wrong.

Who is to say the Chantry would stop once they had gotten the elves to back down on this issue once they know the Elves are weak and afraid of them the other demands would soon come in.

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

The Templars are the arm of the Chantry they are used to tackle abominations and rogue mages because they are better than ordinary soldiers. The Chantry is Orlais that is why they were able to call an exulted march when the Elves attacked their capital because that is the head of the Chantry.

First, the Templars are not the Grey Wardens.  They do not select their recruits from the best of Thedas, the join by volunteering or raised as orphans in a monastery.  Neither of which ensures military excellence.  Second, of course the Divine called an Exalted March when the Grand Cathedral was sacked along with the rest of the city, by heathens no less.  Orlais didn't call the march, they were just ready to attack the Dales anyway thanks to their capital being sacked and closest on hand.

If you have a xenophobic and isolationist race of a different religion who hate you and are known for violence why would you keep sending people they have told you they don't want in their country and then try again this time backed by your military force.

Because they believed they had a moral obligation to spread the word of the maker and the xenophobes had made it clear that their missionaries might not survive a second attempt?  An escort was in order.

the Qunari have a moral obligation to spread their religion so it would be okay for them to come into Orlais with missionaries and armed troops and force Orlais to accept the Qun.

[addiction21]

cjones91 wrote...

Most Pro Chantry fans are smoewhat hypocritical when it comes to the actions of the Chantry.

You and the rest don't even get to point that finger so put it away.

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Sacking Val Royeux isn't staying out of everyone's business.

Again,that was the likely response of Orlais poking the bear until it got tired of being poked and attacked.

That hardly excuses going to the extreme of sacking the capital of one of the continents most powerful empires.  There's a fairly large spectrum between 'sleeping bear' and 'Bear devours six families'

[maliluka]

RepHope wrote...

maliluka wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@maliluka: So it's totally okay to attack someone if they're "too religious" or "too gay" or "too Republican" or "too liberal"?

"Those" people aren't coming into MY neighborhood! We'll show them!

Where in my post did I mention anything about being to gay or religious or anything about a political affiliation?  I simply switched it around as if a Dalish was the missionary trying to convert other people to his religion do you not think he would have been burned at the stake.

Would never happen so the debate is pointless. I don't think the Elves believe in preaching to non-elves.

I wasn't using it as a debate, I was merely pointing out that if the shoe had been on the other foot hypothetically speaking regardless of what race whenever you send "missionaries" in  and try to "convert" or spy on another race its not going to usually be received very well. 

[cjones91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

The Templars are the arm of the Chantry they are used to tackle abominations and rogue mages because they are better than ordinary soldiers. The Chantry is Orlais that is why they were able to call an exulted march when the Elves attacked their capital because that is the head of the Chantry.

First, the Templars are not the Grey Wardens.  They do not select their recruits from the best of Thedas, the join by volunteering or raised as orphans in a monastery.  Neither of which ensures military excellence.  Second, of course the Divine called an Exalted March when the Grand Cathedral was sacked along with the rest of the city, by heathens no less.  Orlais didn't call the march, they were just ready to attack the Dales anyway thanks to their capital being sacked and closest on hand.

If you have a xenophobic and isolationist race of a different religion who hate you and are known for violence why would you keep sending people they have told you they don't want in their country and then try again this time backed by your military force.

Because they believed they had a moral obligation to spread the word of the maker and the xenophobes had made it clear that their missionaries might not survive a second attempt?  An escort was in order.

Why did'nt they just stay the hell away to begin with?

[Heimdall]

ianvillan wrote...


the Qunari have a moral obligation to spread their religion so it would be okay for them to come into Orlais with missionaries and armed troops and force Orlais to accept the Qun.

I didn't say it was okay.

Don't mistake me, I'm not defending the Chantry as an institution.  I'm just saying that, in this particular instance, there's no reason to think the Chantry set out with the intent of starting a war or maliciously slaughtering elves.

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Most Pro Chantry fans are smoewhat hypocritical when it comes to the actions of the Chantry.

You and the rest don't even get to point that finger so put it away.

Ha! I am willing to admit the elves may have been the agressors in the conflict so how does that make me hypocritical?I'm simply giving valid reasons for why the Chantry/Orlais probaly instigated the whole thing and afterwards tried to erase that from history to make themselves look innocent just like the Dalish did.

[cjones91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...


the Qunari have a moral obligation to spread their religion so it would be okay for them to come into Orlais with missionaries and armed troops and force Orlais to accept the Qun.

I didn't say it was okay.

Don't mistake me, I'm not defending the Chantry as an institution.  I'm just saying that, in this particular instance, there's no reason to think the Chantry set out with the intent of starting a war or maliciously slaughtering elves.

They knew the Dales were hostile to outsiders so I don't see how the Chantry/Orlais did'nt expect things to turn ugly when they sent missionaries and later on templars to the Dales.

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...
Why did'nt they just stay the hell away to begin with?

What part of "Believed they had a moral obligation" did you not understand?

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Sacking Val Royeux isn't staying out of everyone's business.

Again,that was the likely response of Orlais poking the bear until it got tired of being poked and attacked.

That hardly excuses going to the extreme of sacking the capital of one of the continents most powerful empires.  There's a fairly large spectrum between 'sleeping bear' and 'Bear devours six families'

But we were told the Elves attacked Red crossing who is to say Orlais never retaliated and the battles escalated upto the sacking of the capital.

[cjones91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Why did'nt they just stay the hell away to begin with?

What part of "Believed they had a moral obligation" did you not understand?

That still does'nt justify entering another land uninvited.I could have a moral obligation to go rob banks but that does'nt mean I'm allowed to do it without consequences.

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...


the Qunari have a moral obligation to spread their religion so it would be okay for them to come into Orlais with missionaries and armed troops and force Orlais to accept the Qun.

I didn't say it was okay.

Don't mistake me, I'm not defending the Chantry as an institution.  I'm just saying that, in this particular instance, there's no reason to think the Chantry set out with the intent of starting a war or maliciously slaughtering elves.

Why not the Chantry believed that their religion was superior, they were angry with the Elves for not helping in the blight so why wouldn't they of wanting to force the issue not caring if it went to war and wanting to punish the Elves.

[MisterJB]

ianvillan wrote...
So because another nation is bigger and stronger than yours you should back down to them and change your culture and beliefs. That sounds like bullying to me and yet we are to believe Orlais and the Chantry are innocent and did no wrong.

Who is to say the Chantry would stop once they had gotten the elves to back down on this issue once they know the Elves are weak and afraid of them the other demands would soon come in.

That is how the world works. The Dales was a nation, it was ocuppying territory as well as hoarding resources. It didn't have the privilege of just pretending the rest of the world didn't exist.
There are certain peacekeeping tools that help discourage invasions such as diplomacy and commerce; both of which we're also told the elves refused to engage in on the grounds that humans are plaguebearers rats.

The smart thing to do in this situation was just allow the building of a Chantry; the dwarves saw that very clearly; and then use that as leverage; no Andrastian Chantry ever suffered an Exhalted March; maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't.

[wolfhowwl]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Most Pro Chantry fans are smoewhat hypocritical when it comes to the actions of the Chantry.

You and the rest don't even get to point that finger so put it away.

heh. You may have been here the other day when lobsel and some others were calling for ethnic cleansing to secure lebenstraum for the elven race.

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...


the Qunari have a moral obligation to spread their religion so it would be okay for them to come into Orlais with missionaries and armed troops and force Orlais to accept the Qun.

I didn't say it was okay.

Don't mistake me, I'm not defending the Chantry as an institution.  I'm just saying that, in this particular instance, there's no reason to think the Chantry set out with the intent of starting a war or maliciously slaughtering elves.

They knew the Dales were hostile to outsiders so I don't see how the Chantry/Orlais did'nt expect things to turn ugly when they sent missionaries and later on templars to the Dales.

The chant had been spread to nonbelievers before, and not just by the sword, in places where those in power might not of agreed.  Just because the leaders say "No" doesn't mean they won't find converts in the populace.  Its called working from the bottom up.  They couldn't have expected the Dales to start a war over a few missionaries with bodyguards.

[dragondreamer]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Why did'nt they just stay the hell away to begin with?

What part of "Believed they had a moral obligation" did you not understand?

The elves also turned away the missionaries because of their own religious beliefs.  You can't excuse the actions of the Chantry based on their beliefs and blame the elves for acting on their own.  And it doesn't change the fact that the Chantry had no right to send a military force to occupy the Dales.

[ianvillan]

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
So because another nation is bigger and stronger than yours you should back down to them and change your culture and beliefs. That sounds like bullying to me and yet we are to believe Orlais and the Chantry are innocent and did no wrong.

Who is to say the Chantry would stop once they had gotten the elves to back down on this issue once they know the Elves are weak and afraid of them the other demands would soon come in.

That is how the world works. The Dales was a nation, it was ocuppying territory as well as hoarding resources. It didn't have the privilege of just pretending the rest of the world didn't exist.
There are certain peacekeeping tools that help discourage invasions such as diplomacy and commerce; both of which we're also told the elves refused to engage in on the grounds that humans are plaguebearers rats.

The smart thing to do in this situation was just allow the building of a Chantry; the dwarves saw that very clearly; and then use that as leverage; no Andrastian Chantry ever suffered an Exhalted March; maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't.

They Dwarves don't have a Chantry they allowed one brother to preach that was all.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
So because another nation is bigger and stronger than yours you should back down to them and change your culture and beliefs. That sounds like bullying to me and yet we are to believe Orlais and the Chantry are innocent and did no wrong.

Who is to say the Chantry would stop once they had gotten the elves to back down on this issue once they know the Elves are weak and afraid of them the other demands would soon come in.

That is how the world works. The Dales was a nation, it was ocuppying territory as well as hoarding resources. It didn't have the privilege of just pretending the rest of the world didn't exist.
There are certain peacekeeping tools that help discourage invasions such as diplomacy and commerce; both of which we're also told the elves refused to engage in on the grounds that humans are plaguebearers rats.

The smart thing to do in this situation was just allow the building of a Chantry; the dwarves saw that very clearly; and then use that as leverage; no Andrastian Chantry ever suffered an Exhalted March; maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't.

Wow,so any country that tries to stay out of everyone's affairs and live in peace deserves to be attacked because they did'nt want to share resources?Who the f*ck says the Dales had to share anything?The Chantry?Orlais?

[Heimdall]

ianvillan wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
the Qunari have a moral obligation to spread their religion so it would be okay for them to come into Orlais with missionaries and armed troops and force Orlais to accept the Qun.

I didn't say it was okay.

Don't mistake me, I'm not defending the Chantry as an institution.  I'm just saying that, in this particular instance, there's no reason to think the Chantry set out with the intent of starting a war or maliciously slaughtering elves.

Why not the Chantry believed that their religion was superior, they were angry with the Elves for not helping in the blight so why wouldn't they of wanting to force the issue not caring if it went to war and wanting to punish the Elves.

Sending in missionaries, even with bodyguards, is not an act of war.  No matter how much you want it to be.  The Elves have only themselves to blame for their overreaction and the consequences.

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...


the Qunari have a moral obligation to spread their religion so it would be okay for them to come into Orlais with missionaries and armed troops and force Orlais to accept the Qun.

I didn't say it was okay.

Don't mistake me, I'm not defending the Chantry as an institution.  I'm just saying that, in this particular instance, there's no reason to think the Chantry set out with the intent of starting a war or maliciously slaughtering elves.

They knew the Dales were hostile to outsiders so I don't see how the Chantry/Orlais did'nt expect things to turn ugly when they sent missionaries and later on templars to the Dales.

The chant had been spread to nonbelievers before, and not just by the sword, in places where those in power might not of agreed.  Just because the leaders say "No" doesn't mean they won't find converts in the populace.  Its called working from the bottom up.  They couldn't have expected the Dales to start a war over a few missionaries with bodyguards.

Who said they started it we don't know what the Templar response was when they were refused again for all we know they might have struck the first blow.

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
the Qunari have a moral obligation to spread their religion so it would be okay for them to come into Orlais with missionaries and armed troops and force Orlais to accept the Qun.

I didn't say it was okay.

Don't mistake me, I'm not defending the Chantry as an institution.  I'm just saying that, in this particular instance, there's no reason to think the Chantry set out with the intent of starting a war or maliciously slaughtering elves.

Why not the Chantry believed that their religion was superior, they were angry with the Elves for not helping in the blight so why wouldn't they of wanting to force the issue not caring if it went to war and wanting to punish the Elves.

Sending in missionaries, even with bodyguards, is not an act of war.  No matter how much you want it to be.  The Elves have only themselves to blame for their overreaction and the consequences.

Sending an armed military unit who you use for your exulted marches into another sovereign nation after they have told you they are not welcome is an act of war.