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[cjones91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...


the Qunari have a moral obligation to spread their religion so it would be okay for them to come into Orlais with missionaries and armed troops and force Orlais to accept the Qun.

I didn't say it was okay.

Don't mistake me, I'm not defending the Chantry as an institution.  I'm just saying that, in this particular instance, there's no reason to think the Chantry set out with the intent of starting a war or maliciously slaughtering elves.

They knew the Dales were hostile to outsiders so I don't see how the Chantry/Orlais did'nt expect things to turn ugly when they sent missionaries and later on templars to the Dales.

The chant had been spread to nonbelievers before, and not just by the sword, in places where those in power might not of agreed.  Just because the leaders say "No" doesn't mean they won't find converts in the populace.  Its called working from the bottom up.  They couldn't have expected the Dales to start a war over a few missionaries with bodyguards.

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

[ianvillan]

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...


the Qunari have a moral obligation to spread their religion so it would be okay for them to come into Orlais with missionaries and armed troops and force Orlais to accept the Qun.

I didn't say it was okay.

Don't mistake me, I'm not defending the Chantry as an institution.  I'm just saying that, in this particular instance, there's no reason to think the Chantry set out with the intent of starting a war or maliciously slaughtering elves.

They knew the Dales were hostile to outsiders so I don't see how the Chantry/Orlais did'nt expect things to turn ugly when they sent missionaries and later on templars to the Dales.

The chant had been spread to nonbelievers before, and not just by the sword, in places where those in power might not of agreed.  Just because the leaders say "No" doesn't mean they won't find converts in the populace.  Its called working from the bottom up.  They couldn't have expected the Dales to start a war over a few missionaries with bodyguards.

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

There is no way they would also allow Qunari soldiers free access into the country on the pretence they are only bodyguards.

[cjones91]

ianvillan wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...


the Qunari have a moral obligation to spread their religion so it would be okay for them to come into Orlais with missionaries and armed troops and force Orlais to accept the Qun.

I didn't say it was okay.

Don't mistake me, I'm not defending the Chantry as an institution.  I'm just saying that, in this particular instance, there's no reason to think the Chantry set out with the intent of starting a war or maliciously slaughtering elves.

They knew the Dales were hostile to outsiders so I don't see how the Chantry/Orlais did'nt expect things to turn ugly when they sent missionaries and later on templars to the Dales.

The chant had been spread to nonbelievers before, and not just by the sword, in places where those in power might not of agreed.  Just because the leaders say "No" doesn't mean they won't find converts in the populace.  Its called working from the bottom up.  They couldn't have expected the Dales to start a war over a few missionaries with bodyguards.

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

There is no way they would also allow Qunari soldiers free access into the country on the pretence they are only bodyguards.

Agreed,and people expect the Dales to just submit and let their culture and religion be replaced while the Chantry is perfectly justified in defending theirs from the Qunari.

Modifié par cjones91, 25 septembre 2013 - 10:02 .

[BlueMagitek]

maliluka wrote...
That's the point, the missionaries really had no real reason to be there other than trying to convert the Elves. Just imagine if a Dalish had went to Orlais and tried to get people convert, I think "violently mistreated" would be the least of the elves worries. 

You poke enough at something and sooner or later its going to snap back

I'm sorry that the elves are so violent that they'd be willing to attack the missionaries. 

And if the missionaries weren't going to be successful, why throw them out?  Aside from the icky "humans cause immortality to fade by existing" thing that the elves have going on.

[ianvillan]

cjones91 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...


the Qunari have a moral obligation to spread their religion so it would be okay for them to come into Orlais with missionaries and armed troops and force Orlais to accept the Qun.

I didn't say it was okay.

Don't mistake me, I'm not defending the Chantry as an institution.  I'm just saying that, in this particular instance, there's no reason to think the Chantry set out with the intent of starting a war or maliciously slaughtering elves.

They knew the Dales were hostile to outsiders so I don't see how the Chantry/Orlais did'nt expect things to turn ugly when they sent missionaries and later on templars to the Dales.

The chant had been spread to nonbelievers before, and not just by the sword, in places where those in power might not of agreed.  Just because the leaders say "No" doesn't mean they won't find converts in the populace.  Its called working from the bottom up.  They couldn't have expected the Dales to start a war over a few missionaries with bodyguards.

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

There is no way they would also allow Qunari soldiers free access into the country on the pretence they are only bodyguards.

Agreed,and people expect the Dales to just submit and let their culture and religion be replaced while the Chantry is perfectly justified in defending theirs from the Qunari.

I also wonder if the Qunari were to take a city and kill or forcibly relocate its citizens and destroy its culture and religion would the same defenders say that the Humans have no right to take back the place because they had lost and the Qunari live their now.

[ianvillan]

BlueMagitek wrote...

maliluka wrote...
That's the point, the missionaries really had no real reason to be there other than trying to convert the Elves. Just imagine if a Dalish had went to Orlais and tried to get people convert, I think "violently mistreated" would be the least of the elves worries. 

You poke enough at something and sooner or later its going to snap back

I'm sorry that the elves are so violent that they'd be willing to attack the missionaries. 

And if the missionaries weren't going to be successful, why throw them out?  Aside from the icky "humans cause immortality to fade by existing" thing that the elves have going on.

 If the Qun is not going to be successful why not allow Qunari missionaries free access to all Chantry nations.

[BlueMagitek]

ianvillan wrote...
 If the Qun is not going to be successful why not allow Qunari missionaries free access to all Chantry nations.

Sure, why not?

[Heimdall]

ianvillan wrote...

 
Sending an armed military unit who you use for your exulted marches into another sovereign nation after they have told you they are not welcome is an act of war.

Sorry, but protecting missionaries from people both sides know may try to harm them is not.  Besides, as you yourself said, the Templars' primary duty is to guard the Mages and hunt Abomination ect. Amongst other miscellaneous tasks like protecting Chantries and priestess.  Exalted Marches are fought by the soldiers of Andrastrian nations, not the Templars themselves.

Even if it was an act of war, it would not have warranted a full scale invasion of Orlais.  Though you so conveniently forget it, the Chantry and Orlais are not synonymous.  I won't deny the Chantry favors them, but ravaging the countryside and killing Maker only knows how many innocent Orlesian peasants on their path to wreak destruction on the capital was an unwarranted overreaction by any standard.

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

No they weren't.  If they were reasonable they wouldn't have thought sacking half of Orlais and the heart of the Chantry, thus antagonizing every other nation in Thedas, was a good idea.

At any rate, the Qunari don't send missionaries.  They  invade outright.  The Tamassrans come later to educate the Bas.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 25 septembre 2013 - 10:15 .

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

 
Sending an armed military unit who you use for your exulted marches into another sovereign nation after they have told you they are not welcome is an act of war.

Sorry, but protecting missionaries from people both sides know may try to harm them is not.  Besides, as you yourself said, the Templars' primary duty is to guard the Mages and hunt Abomination ect. Amongst other miscellaneous tasks like protecting Chantries and priestess.  Exalted Marches are fought by the soldiers of Andrastrian nations, not the Templars themselves.

Even if it was an act of war, it would not have warranted a full scale invasion of Orlais.  Though you so conveniently forget it, the Chantry and Orlais are not synonymous.  I won't deny the Chantry favors them, but ravaging the countryside and killing Maker only knows how many innocent Orlesian peasants on their path to wreak destruction on the capital was an unwarranted overreaction by any standard.

You believe because of missionaries the Elves went on a murderous rampage straight to the capital of Orlais and Orlais was innocent and never once attacked any Elven town/city's or people.

Then either the Elves are the fastest and best warriors ever or Orlais is the most stupid nation in Thedas.

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

No they weren't.  If they were reasonable they wouldn't have thought sacking half of Orlais and the heart of the Chantry, thus antagonizing every other nation in Thedas, was a good idea.

At any rate, the Qunari don't send missionaries.  They  invade outright.  The Tamassrans come later to educate the Bas.

Its amazing how some fans believe that Orlais never sacked any Elven city's how they never killed any Elven civilians how they never ventured into the Dales until the Elves attacked their capital.

[cjones91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

No they weren't.  If they were reasonable they wouldn't have thought sacking half of Orlais and the heart of the Chantry, thus antagonizing every other nation in Thedas, was a good idea.

At any rate, the Qunari don't send missionaries.  They  invade outright.  The Tamassrans come later to educate the Bas.

So what your saying is it's okay for the Chantry to subvert another country's religion because they sent missionaries?If I recall Orlais wasn't half of Thedas and they had to get the Chantry to finish a fight they likely started.

[Br3admax]

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

No they weren't.  If they were reasonable they wouldn't have thought sacking half of Orlais and the heart of the Chantry, thus antagonizing every other nation in Thedas, was a good idea.

At any rate, the Qunari don't send missionaries.  They  invade outright.  The Tamassrans come later to educate the Bas.

So what your saying is it's okay for the Chantry to subvert another country's religion because they sent missionaries?If I recall Orlais wasn't half of Thedas and they had to get the Chantry to finish a fight they likely started.

The Chantry is based in Orlais and actually started said fight. Try again. 

[BlueMagitek]

ianvillan wrote...
You believe because of missionaries the Elves went on a murderous rampage straight to the capital of Orlais and Orlais was innocent and never once attacked any Elven town/city's or people.

Then either the Elves are the fastest and best warriors ever or Orlais is the most stupid nation in Thedas.

Missionaries and the fact that the elves hold onto the xenophobic belief that humanity is itself a blight on them.

Don't forget that Orlais actually helped fight against the Blight and were still in recovery, while the Dales quite literally stood at the sidelines watching human cities burn.

[ianvillan]

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

No they weren't.  If they were reasonable they wouldn't have thought sacking half of Orlais and the heart of the Chantry, thus antagonizing every other nation in Thedas, was a good idea.

At any rate, the Qunari don't send missionaries.  They  invade outright.  The Tamassrans come later to educate the Bas.

So what your saying is it's okay for the Chantry to subvert another country's religion because they sent missionaries?If I recall Orlais wasn't half of Thedas and they had to get the Chantry to finish a fight they likely started.

The Chantry is based in Orlais and actually started said fight. Try again. 

So if the Chantry started the fight and the only city they own is The capital of Orlais how were the Elves in the wrong for attacking it. What should they do when they are at war with a religion, go well This religion is hiding in a city of a country so lets not fight back.

[cjones91]

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

No they weren't.  If they were reasonable they wouldn't have thought sacking half of Orlais and the heart of the Chantry, thus antagonizing every other nation in Thedas, was a good idea.

At any rate, the Qunari don't send missionaries.  They  invade outright.  The Tamassrans come later to educate the Bas.

So what your saying is it's okay for the Chantry to subvert another country's religion because they sent missionaries?If I recall Orlais wasn't half of Thedas and they had to get the Chantry to finish a fight they likely started.

The Chantry is based in Orlais and actually started said fight. Try again. 

Oh I'm sorry,I did'nt realize a religious institution made up half of Thedas(that was sarcasm by the way).Atleast you are willing to admit the Chantry had a hand in instigating the conflict.

[Br3admax]

ianvillan wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

No they weren't.  If they were reasonable they wouldn't have thought sacking half of Orlais and the heart of the Chantry, thus antagonizing every other nation in Thedas, was a good idea.

At any rate, the Qunari don't send missionaries.  They  invade outright.  The Tamassrans come later to educate the Bas.

So what your saying is it's okay for the Chantry to subvert another country's religion because they sent missionaries?If I recall Orlais wasn't half of Thedas and they had to get the Chantry to finish a fight they likely started.

The Chantry is based in Orlais and actually started said fight. Try again. 

So if the Chantry started the fight and the only city they own is The capital of Orlais how were the Elves in the wrong for attacking it. What should they do when they are at war with a religion, go well This religion is hiding in a city of a country so lets not fight back.

The very idea that someone should go to war with a religion is stupid within itself. Or do you think that the Crusades was a good idea? 

[cjones91]

BlueMagitek wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
You believe because of missionaries the Elves went on a murderous rampage straight to the capital of Orlais and Orlais was innocent and never once attacked any Elven town/city's or people.

Then either the Elves are the fastest and best warriors ever or Orlais is the most stupid nation in Thedas.

Missionaries and the fact that the elves hold onto the xenophobic belief that humanity is itself a blight on them.

Don't forget that Orlais actually helped fight against the Blight and were still in recovery, while the Dales quite literally stood at the sidelines watching human cities burn.

The elves helped fight darkspawn in the Anderfels.

[Br3admax]

cjones91 wrote...

Oh I'm sorry,I did'nt realize a religious institution made up half of Thedas(that was sarcasm by the way).Atleast you are willing to admit the Chantry had a hand in instigating the conflict.

Not point. The point is, the Chantry had stakes in the fight before, Orlais didn't have to ask them to do anything. 

[cjones91]

Br3ad wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

No they weren't.  If they were reasonable they wouldn't have thought sacking half of Orlais and the heart of the Chantry, thus antagonizing every other nation in Thedas, was a good idea.

At any rate, the Qunari don't send missionaries.  They  invade outright.  The Tamassrans come later to educate the Bas.

So what your saying is it's okay for the Chantry to subvert another country's religion because they sent missionaries?If I recall Orlais wasn't half of Thedas and they had to get the Chantry to finish a fight they likely started.

The Chantry is based in Orlais and actually started said fight. Try again. 

So if the Chantry started the fight and the only city they own is The capital of Orlais how were the Elves in the wrong for attacking it. What should they do when they are at war with a religion, go well This religion is hiding in a city of a country so lets not fight back.

The very idea that someone should go to war with a religion is stupid within itself. Or do you think that the Crusades was a good idea? 

The Chantry had their own version of the Crusades....they're called Exalted Marches.

[ianvillan]

BlueMagitek wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
You believe because of missionaries the Elves went on a murderous rampage straight to the capital of Orlais and Orlais was innocent and never once attacked any Elven town/city's or people.

Then either the Elves are the fastest and best warriors ever or Orlais is the most stupid nation in Thedas.

Missionaries and the fact that the elves hold onto the xenophobic belief that humanity is itself a blight on them.

Don't forget that Orlais actually helped fight against the Blight and were still in recovery, while the Dales quite literally stood at the sidelines watching human cities burn.

So did Orlais and other nations stand by in the fifth blight does that mean Feralden is justified in declaring war on them.

[cjones91]

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Oh I'm sorry,I did'nt realize a religious institution made up half of Thedas(that was sarcasm by the way).Atleast you are willing to admit the Chantry had a hand in instigating the conflict.

Not point. The point is, the Chantry had stakes in the fight before, Orlais didn't have to ask them to do anything. 

But Orlais needed their help since the elves were kicking their asses.The Chantry and Orlais are practically one and the same so they both started the conflict and finished it.

Modifié par cjones91, 25 septembre 2013 - 10:32 .

[Br3admax]

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

And the Dales were perfectly reasonable when the Chantry tried to subvert their culture and religion.The hypocritical irony  is the Qunari wants to spread the Qun to everyone in Thedas yet the Chantry reacted violently to that many times just like the Dales did.

No they weren't.  If they were reasonable they wouldn't have thought sacking half of Orlais and the heart of the Chantry, thus antagonizing every other nation in Thedas, was a good idea.

At any rate, the Qunari don't send missionaries.  They  invade outright.  The Tamassrans come later to educate the Bas.

So what your saying is it's okay for the Chantry to subvert another country's religion because they sent missionaries?If I recall Orlais wasn't half of Thedas and they had to get the Chantry to finish a fight they likely started.

The Chantry is based in Orlais and actually started said fight. Try again. 

So if the Chantry started the fight and the only city they own is The capital of Orlais how were the Elves in the wrong for attacking it. What should they do when they are at war with a religion, go well This religion is hiding in a city of a country so lets not fight back.

The very idea that someone should go to war with a religion is stupid within itself. Or do you think that the Crusades was a good idea? 

The Chantry had their own version of the Crusades....they're called Exalted Marches.

You seem to think that I support the Chantry when you respond. You should know that I do not. 

[BlueMagitek]

cjones91 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
You believe because of missionaries the Elves went on a murderous rampage straight to the capital of Orlais and Orlais was innocent and never once attacked any Elven town/city's or people.

Then either the Elves are the fastest and best warriors ever or Orlais is the most stupid nation in Thedas.

Missionaries and the fact that the elves hold onto the xenophobic belief that humanity is itself a blight on them.

Don't forget that Orlais actually helped fight against the Blight and were still in recovery, while the Dales quite literally stood at the sidelines watching human cities burn.

The elves helped fight darkspawn in the Anderfels.

http://dragonage.wik...i/Second_Blight

Unless it is in World of Thedas, please point it out to me.

Yeah, great job they did too, considering the Anderfels are still covered in Darkspawn.  Dalish can't do a thing right.

Heck, it says it was Orlais that saved Anderfels, not even mentioning the Dalish.

[ianvillan]

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Oh I'm sorry,I did'nt realize a religious institution made up half of Thedas(that was sarcasm by the way).Atleast you are willing to admit the Chantry had a hand in instigating the conflict.

Not point. The point is, the Chantry had stakes in the fight before, Orlais didn't have to ask them to do anything. 

Orlais did have to ask the Chantry to do something they needed an exulted march or they might loose their capital and maybe the war.