1256 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

@Br3ad I was simply saying the Chantry had been fighting religions ever since Andraste's time.

[BlueMagitek]

ianvillan wrote...

So did Orlais and other nations stand by in the fifth blight does that mean Feralden is justified in declaring war on them.

Not only did you miss the point, but you don't recognize the differences in the situation.  Orlais was more than ready to help, and most likely would have had Ostagar not happened.

The Dales didn't offer to help at all, even watching darkspawn sack human cities.  Orlais allied with Tevinter, and you think that they would have a problem allying with the Dales?

[ianvillan]

BlueMagitek wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
You believe because of missionaries the Elves went on a murderous rampage straight to the capital of Orlais and Orlais was innocent and never once attacked any Elven town/city's or people.

Then either the Elves are the fastest and best warriors ever or Orlais is the most stupid nation in Thedas.

Missionaries and the fact that the elves hold onto the xenophobic belief that humanity is itself a blight on them.

Don't forget that Orlais actually helped fight against the Blight and were still in recovery, while the Dales quite literally stood at the sidelines watching human cities burn.

The elves helped fight darkspawn in the Anderfels.

http://dragonage.wik...i/Second_Blight

Unless it is in World of Thedas, please point it out to me.

Yeah, great job they did too, considering the Anderfels are still covered in Darkspawn.  Dalish can't do a thing right.

Heck, it says it was Orlais that saved Anderfels, not even mentioning the Dalish.

We could continue the argument about how true the accounts are and whether the Chantry would change them to suit themselves but it would be treading old ground.

Modifié par ianvillan, 25 septembre 2013 - 10:39 .

[cjones91]

BlueMagitek wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
You believe because of missionaries the Elves went on a murderous rampage straight to the capital of Orlais and Orlais was innocent and never once attacked any Elven town/city's or people.

Then either the Elves are the fastest and best warriors ever or Orlais is the most stupid nation in Thedas.

Missionaries and the fact that the elves hold onto the xenophobic belief that humanity is itself a blight on them.

Don't forget that Orlais actually helped fight against the Blight and were still in recovery, while the Dales quite literally stood at the sidelines watching human cities burn.

The elves helped fight darkspawn in the Anderfels.

http://dragonage.wik...i/Second_Blight

Unless it is in World of Thedas, please point it out to me.

Yeah, great job they did too, considering the Anderfels are still covered in Darkspawn.  Dalish can't do a thing right.

Heck, it says it was Orlais that saved Anderfels, not even mentioning the Dalish.

That's because the Anderfels is ground zero since thousands and thousands of darkspawn roam the lands,not to mention so much darkspawn blood had been spilt that nothing living can ever grow there.Not even corpses decay in the Anderfels so that place was f*cked up since the First Blight.

And do you really think the elves would'nt have participated in the Second Blight despite what most people believe?

[dragonflight288]

ianvillan wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
You believe because of missionaries the Elves went on a murderous rampage straight to the capital of Orlais and Orlais was innocent and never once attacked any Elven town/city's or people.

Then either the Elves are the fastest and best warriors ever or Orlais is the most stupid nation in Thedas.

Missionaries and the fact that the elves hold onto the xenophobic belief that humanity is itself a blight on them.

Don't forget that Orlais actually helped fight against the Blight and were still in recovery, while the Dales quite literally stood at the sidelines watching human cities burn.

The elves helped fight darkspawn in the Anderfels.

http://dragonage.wik...i/Second_Blight

Unless it is in World of Thedas, please point it out to me.

Yeah, great job they did too, considering the Anderfels are still covered in Darkspawn.  Dalish can't do a thing right.

Heck, it says it was Orlais that saved Anderfels, not even mentioning the Dalish.

We could continue the argument about how true the accounts are and whether the Chantry would change them to suit themselves but it would be treading old ground.

In the end, the Chantry violently resisting the Qun is exactly the same as the Dales violently resisting the Chantry. The reasons are the same. They want to preserve their religion and their culture.

The Qun and the Chantry are exactly alike in their desire to spread their belief and religion across all the world, and they are exactly the same in many of their methods.

[Bleachrude]

I always assumed that the reason why the missionaries were thrown out WAS because they wre successful. THe dwarves have blthely ignored the chantry for years even with missionaries since their belief in the Stone is that strong..

For the elves of the dales, given that their creators didn't heed their call and it took the bride of the maker to free them, of course there are going to be some who think the cult of the maker is true...

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Not to mention you have to look at things from the Dales' POV,you have a nation that gained the reputation of invading countries by claiming to "help" during Blights and they send soilders that never leave after the Blight ends.

To a nation that just wants to be left alone the fact Orlais/Chantry tried to send missionaries in their lands could have been a provocation because those missionaries could have been spies that were sent to monitor the Dales's strength.

Orlais didn't have that reputation back then. It occured after the Third Blight.

Armored and armored soldiers followed after the elves kicked out the missionaries (according to the historical account from the Dalish), and sending the military arm of your organization into foreign territory is likely to provoke a military response. 

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If the Dales considered sending missionaries as a justifaction for war then they really are at fault. 

Orlais was created by Drakon launching a series of Exalted Marches against his neighbors and conquering them, because he wanted to establish an empire under the worship of the Maker. Their inception involved conquest, and Drakon was only prevented from expanding into the Free Marches because of the issues the Orlesian Empire had with the neighboring kingdom of the Dales.

[BlueMagitek]

ianvillan wrote...
We could continue the argument about how true the accounts are and whether the Chantry would change them to suit themselves but it would be treading old ground.

You mean the accounts that have verification from sources outside the Codex? (World of Thedas, Tabletop game)

Or that, you know, there are non-Chantry followers who don't dispute them?

cjones91 wrote...
And do you really think the elves would'nt have participated in the Second Blight despite what most people believe?

Have you ever played a game of DA:O where you don't grovel at the feet of the Dalish?  They're kind of rude and bigoted, more or less calling a City Elf their equivilent of an Uncle Tom for daring to think differently.

I completely believe that the Dalish who profess that humanity is a blight upon their race (as human contact means no immortality) would sit by and watch humans and dwarves die.

[Heimdall]

ianvillan wrote...

You believe because of missionaries the Elves went on a murderous rampage straight to the capital of Orlais and Orlais was innocent and never once attacked any Elven town/city's or people.

Then either the Elves are the fastest and best warriors ever or Orlais is the most stupid nation in Thedas.

Orlais only became involved after the Elves began their attack.  And please, what sort of monstrous person are you that you think an Orlesian peasant isn't evil just because of what the his leaders do?  I'm not and never have been excusing what the Chantry and Orlais did to the Dales eventually.

I'm just saying that the Elves were colossal idiots.

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

After the missionaries were refused they then sent Templars, are we to believe that the Templars they sent to ensure the missionaries got through never drew their swords and attacked the Elves, Who's to say the Elves attack on Red Crossing was not in provocation for Templars attacking one of their towns.

Why on earth would Templars sent to protect missionaries decide to launch an attack on a town?

Hypothetically speaking, if Red Crossing is where the templars were stationed, it explains why the elves attacked the town after the military arm of the Andrastian Chantry began to invade their kingdom.

Lord Aesir wrote...

If that was their purpose, they couldn't have been prepared to wage a military compaign.  It makes little sense...  Unless the elves attacked the missionaries with violence, in which case they were perfectly justified in defending themselves. 

You mean the missionaries who were trespassing into the sovereign territory of the Dales, who were followed by armed and armored soldiers who began to cross into a nation that was independent of the Orlesian Empire?

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...
So what your saying is it's okay for the Chantry to subvert another country's religion because they sent missionaries?If I recall Orlais wasn't half of Thedas and they had to get the Chantry to finish a fight they likely started.

If you really think people shouldn't be allowed to try and spread their beliefs, I think you need to take good long look at your moral compass.

If a few preaching foreigners is enough to destabilize their entire culture, the foreigners probably aren't the problem.

At any rate, attacking the seat of a religion that spans most of the known world does, in fact, antagonize virtually every kingdom in Thedas.  And they, in fact, did cut a bloody swathe through Orlais on their way to Val Royeaux.  Orlais couldn't have been the only nation angry.  They were just the closest and the most motivated.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@maliluka: So it's totally okay to attack someone if they're "too religious" or "too gay" or "too Republican" or "too liberal"?

"Those" people aren't coming into MY neighborhood! We'll show them!

The situation you're addressing is one where templars were said to begin invading the kingdom of the Dales after the elves kicked out the Chantry missionaries - because the elves refused to convert to the human religion. If the Chantry of Andraste sent armed and armored soldiers into the territory of another nation, it's likely going to cause a military response. If the templars were stationed at the town of Red Crossing, then I'm not surprised the elves retaliated against the invading army.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dalish codex mentions the templars were sent and then mentions that they were driven from Halamshiral. That implies it was the templars were the ones that drove them from the Dales.Ergo They were talking about the Exalted March. That whole entry condenses years or even centuries into a single paragraph.

Also Drakon's reputation for conquest is greatly exaggerated. He was king of a city state that conquered and united a few neighboring city states. And that's all. As ages of expansion goes, it's one of Orlais' smallest. He was also dead for decades by the time the conflict between the Dales and Orlais.

The Chantry spreads it's words mostly by sending peaceful missionaries. The Qun spreads only by war and conquest. They are not the same. And Orlais sending missionaries does not equal and act of war or that it was the equivalent of conquest.

"There is but one way to know these things, humans. And I have yet to decide if it must be done."

At the end of the day, neither side needs to be completely guilty or innocent. So trying to imagine either side being completely absolved of wrongdoing is pointless We don't know who started the border skirmishes and we don't know the motives of either sides' commanders at the time. But we know the Chantry didn't start the Exalted March until after the elves were winning the war against Orlais.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 septembre 2013 - 11:13 .

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hypothetically speaking, if Red Crossing is where the templars were stationed, it explains why the elves attacked the town after the military arm of the Andrastian Chantry began to invade their kingdom.

The Templars aren't equipped to invade nations!  They stand guard in towns and have large garrisons in towers, probably in prominent Chantry's as well, but I have yet to see an instance where they were used as a standing army.  If they entered the Dales, it was not as an invasion force.  If the elves thought the best response to that was wholesale sacking and slaughter of a country that hadn't even sent them, they're idiots.

You mean the missionaries who were trespassing into the sovereign territory of the Dales, who were followed by armed and armored soldiers who began to cross into a nation that was independent of the Orlesian Empire?

If those soldiers were Templars, then they weren't part of Orlais to begin with.

To clarify, my position on the matter stands as thus:

The Chantry antagonized the Dales with missionaries with an armed escort.  Instead of dealing with it, the Dales made the colossally stupid move of attacking Orlais in response.

[LobselVith8]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Sacking Val Royeux isn't staying out of everyone's business.

You're addressing an act that took place well into the war between the Dales and Orlais.

Both versions claim the other started the war. If the Dalish historical account is accurate, then templars invaded their nation, and started the war that ensued. We've seen how templars were an occupying force in Kirkwall, so it's not out of the realm of possibility.

If the elves were invaded by templars (with the Chantry of Andraste and the Orlesian Empire intertwined to such an extent that Maric and Loghain debated what to do about the Chantry in Ferelden after the war), then they were retaliating against an enemy force.

Perhaps this will be a debate that might transpire between possible Seeker and templar companions, and the Dalish Inquisitor, since it might color how the elven protagonist views members of these organizations. Even the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry since the elves wouldn't convert to their religion, so the elven protagonist leading the Inquisition might hold similar views.

[cjones91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hypothetically speaking, if Red Crossing is where the templars were stationed, it explains why the elves attacked the town after the military arm of the Andrastian Chantry began to invade their kingdom.

The Templars aren't equipped to invade nations!  They stand guard in towns and have large garrisons in towers, probably in prominent Chantry's as well, but I have yet to see an instance where they were used as a standing army.  If they entered the Dales, it was not as an invasion force.  If the elves thought the best response to that was wholesale sacking and slaughter of a country that hadn't even sent them, they're idiots.

You mean the missionaries who were trespassing into the sovereign territory of the Dales, who were followed by armed and armored soldiers who began to cross into a nation that was independent of the Orlesian Empire?

If those soldiers were Templars, then they weren't part of Orlais to begin with.

To clarify, my position on the matter stands as thus:

The Chantry antagonized the Dales with missionaries with an armed escort.  Instead of dealing with it, the Dales made the colossally stupid move of attacking Orlais in response.

Rivain says hello.

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

The Templars are the arm of the Chantry they are used to tackle abominations and rogue mages because they are better than ordinary soldiers. The Chantry is Orlais that is why they were able to call an exulted march when the Elves attacked their capital because that is the head of the Chantry.

First, the Templars are not the Grey Wardens.  They do not select their recruits from the best of Thedas, the join by volunteering or raised as orphans in a monastery.  Neither of which ensures military excellence.  Second, of course the Divine called an Exalted March when the Grand Cathedral was sacked along with the rest of the city, by heathens no less.  Orlais didn't call the march, they were just ready to attack the Dales anyway thanks to their capital being sacked and closest on hand.

The Orlesian Empire has a symbiotic relationship with the Chantry of Andraste, as the two were formed by Emperor Drakon because he established his particular Cult of the Maker as the national religion of the new empire he established through conquest and invasion. It's why the Chantry supported the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden for over a century, and why Maric and Loghain contemplated dissolving the Chantry in Ferelden during the rebellion.

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

If you have a xenophobic and isolationist race of a different religion who hate you and are known for violence why would you keep sending people they have told you they don't want in their country and then try again this time backed by your military force.

Because they believed they had a moral obligation to spread the word of the maker and the xenophobes had made it clear that their missionaries might not survive a second attempt?  An escort was in order. 

Their "moral obligation" doesn't give them the right to invade the nation of another, and sending an army to invade the nation of another is the most likely way to cause a military conflict.

[RepHope]

Bleachrude wrote...

I always assumed that the reason why the missionaries were thrown out WAS because they wre successful. THe dwarves have blthely ignored the chantry for years even with missionaries since their belief in the Stone is that strong..

For the elves of the dales, given that their creators didn't heed their call and it took the bride of the maker to free them, of course there are going to be some who think the cult of the maker is true...

Thats what I believe too if your gods are all gone and can't help you why worship them?

Also lol @ all the pro-elf fans acting like they've never been hypocritical or that the elves are any less biased in their version of history than the chantry. Nobody, not the chantry, not Orlais, and certainly not the elves is completely in the clear here.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

So because another nation is bigger and stronger than yours you should back down to them and change your culture and beliefs. That sounds like bullying to me and yet we are to believe Orlais and the Chantry are innocent and did no wrong.

Who is to say the Chantry would stop once they had gotten the elves to back down on this issue once they know the Elves are weak and afraid of them the other demands would soon come in.

That is how the world works. The Dales was a nation, it was ocuppying territory as well as hoarding resources. It didn't have the privilege of just pretending the rest of the world didn't exist.
There are certain peacekeeping tools that help discourage invasions such as diplomacy and commerce; both of which we're also told the elves refused to engage in on the grounds that humans are plaguebearers rats.

So Orlais never would have attempted to invade if the Dales engaged other human societies? The Orlesian invasions of Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden disprove this line of thought.

MisterJB wrote...

The smart thing to do in this situation was just allow the building of a Chantry; the dwarves saw that very clearly; and then use that as leverage; no Andrastian Chantry ever suffered an Exhalted March; maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't.

The dwarves don't have to allow the creation of a Chantry in Orzammar, and no one uses it as leverage, since the fallout is never specifically addressed. Divine Justina was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall, despite the city-state having a Chantry in the city. Historically, Divine Ambrosia II contemplated an Exalted March on her own cathedral, when the mages were peacefully protesting their lack of rights.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 25 septembre 2013 - 11:42 .

[RepHope]

And I keep seeing the word "trespassing" where was it said that they weren't allowed or even invited in?

[cjones91]

RepHope wrote...

And I keep seeing the word "trespassing" where was it said that they weren't allowed or even invited in?

If the Chantry's missionaries were allowed inside the Dales then there would'nt have been a war don't you think?

[cjones91]

RepHope wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

I always assumed that the reason why the missionaries were thrown out WAS because they wre successful. THe dwarves have blthely ignored the chantry for years even with missionaries since their belief in the Stone is that strong..

For the elves of the dales, given that their creators didn't heed their call and it took the bride of the maker to free them, of course there are going to be some who think the cult of the maker is true...

Thats what I believe too if your gods are all gone and can't help you why worship them?

Also lol @ all the pro-elf fans acting like they've never been hypocritical or that the elves are any less biased in their version of history than the chantry. Nobody, not the chantry, not Orlais, and certainly not the elves is completely in the clear here.

Why does the Chantry worship the Maker?They can't prove he exists so why are Andrastians still believing he actually cared about them?

[Daerog]

RepHope wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

I always assumed that the reason why the missionaries were thrown out WAS because they wre successful. THe dwarves have blthely ignored the chantry for years even with missionaries since their belief in the Stone is that strong..

For the elves of the dales, given that their creators didn't heed their call and it took the bride of the maker to free them, of course there are going to be some who think the cult of the maker is true...

Thats what I believe too if your gods are all gone and can't help you why worship them?

Also lol @ all the pro-elf fans acting like they've never been hypocritical or that the elves are any less biased in their version of history than the chantry. Nobody, not the chantry, not Orlais, and certainly not the elves is completely in the clear here.

If there were no pro elf fans, then there would be very little to argue about on the forums. Sincere or pretending, the pro and anti groups serve a vital function in keeping the dragon age forums alive and active. The pro elves and anti dalish help give some variety so the forum isn't bogged down by just mages vs Templars vs Chantry.

Edit: Chantry and elven pantheons have gods who are unable to help or choose not to.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 25 septembre 2013 - 11:51 .

[LobselVith8]

wolfhowwl wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

You and the rest don't even get to point that finger so put it away.

heh. You may have been here the other day when lobsel and some others were calling for ethnic cleansing to secure lebenstraum for the elven race. 

Relocation without killing any civilians so that elves have one single place in the entire continent where they can be free and worship their gods in safety doesn't fit the definition you ascribe. The harsh reality of elves being killed en mass in purges, having Dalish clans hunted down by templars, and dealing with a society where humans see elves as less than people (as Duncan said) is why I'd endorse giving him a nation to call their own. If the elves are rebelling against Orlesian rule in the Dales, I see no reason to support the status quo.

The fact that humans cared so little about the elves that Vaughan could abduct women in broad daylight to gang-rape them, and a serial killer can abduct and murder elven children for years unless Hawke decides to kill him, speaks volumes about how little most Andrastians care about the elves. Duncan even laments to an elven protagonist that most humans who have lived their entire lives seeing elves as less than people are difficult to dissuade from thinking otherwise.

[RepHope]

cjones91 wrote...

RepHope wrote...

And I keep seeing the word "trespassing" where was it said that they weren't allowed or even invited in?

If the Chantry's missionaries were allowed inside the Dales then there would'nt have been a war don't you think?

Perhaps. But you still haven't answered my question