1256 réponses à ce sujet

[RepHope]

The difference between the two is that the Chantry believes that the Maker WON'T help while the elves seem to believe the Creators CAN'T. However the Chantry says if everyone says the Chant of Light the Maker will return. Does anyone know if the Dalish have legends of the Creators Return? Because with the Chantry their god could return while I don't know if even the Dalish believe the Creators will.

If either is even real

[cjones91]

RepHope wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

RepHope wrote...

And I keep seeing the word "trespassing" where was it said that they weren't allowed or even invited in?

If the Chantry's missionaries were allowed inside the Dales then there would'nt have been a war don't you think?

Perhaps. But you still haven't answered my question

I just did.If the Chantry were allowed inside the Dales then there would'nt be a conflict to start with.Instead they barged into sovereign lands and did'nt care if the elves would have a problem with it.

[LobselVith8]

Bleachrude wrote...

I always assumed that the reason why the missionaries were thrown out WAS because they wre successful. THe dwarves have blthely ignored the chantry for years even with missionaries since their belief in the Stone is that strong..

The dwarves had the advantage of living in a virtually impenetrable society that the human nations can't breach, as we know from certain Epilogue slides, and controlling the most valuable substance on Thedas.

Bleachrude wrote...

For the elves of the dales, given that their creators didn't heed their call and it took the bride of the maker to free them, of course there are going to be some who think the cult of the maker is true...

Shartan fought alongside Andraste, leading the elves against the Imperium, and he was executed by Tevinter during the betrayal. I don't see why Shartan's efforts should be marginalized; even after losing their homeland, the Dalish clearly haven't forgotten him.

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...

I just did.If the Chantry were allowed inside the Dales then there would'nt be a conflict to start with.Instead they barged into sovereign lands and did'nt care if the elves would have a problem with it.

People keep bringing this up as if it were rational to declare war on a major nation over a few trespassers that had no affiliation with that nation's government or military.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 26 septembre 2013 - 12:22 .

[cjones91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I just did.If the Chantry were allowed inside the Dales then there would'nt be a conflict to start with.Instead they barged into sovereign lands and did'nt care if the elves would have a problem with it.

People keep bring this up as if it were rational to declare war on a major nation over a few trespassers that had no affiliation with that nation's government.

The fact the missionaries were acting on behalf of the Chantry/Orlais proves otherwise,and they came back with a heavily armed contingent when they should have stayed away the first time.

[RepHope]

So they did trespass? How soon where the missionaries kicked out and why? Just because they were Andrastian?

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I just did.If the Chantry were allowed inside the Dales then there would'nt be a conflict to start with.Instead they barged into sovereign lands and did'nt care if the elves would have a problem with it.

People keep bring this up as if it were rational to declare war on a major nation over a few trespassers that had no affiliation with that nation's government.

The fact the missionaries were acting on behalf of the Chantry/Orlais proves otherwise,and they came back with a heavily armed contingent when they should have stayed away the first time.

How often does it need to be said that the Chantry is not an arm of Orlais?  Don't pretend that a few Templars constitutes an Orlesian invasion of the Dales.

And yes, maybe they should have stayed away, but that's not the point I'm arguing.  The Elves invaded and sacked a nation that had done nothing to them save have the Chantry based in it.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I just did.If the Chantry were allowed inside the Dales then there would'nt be a conflict to start with.Instead they barged into sovereign lands and did'nt care if the elves would have a problem with it.

People keep bring this up as if it were rational to declare war on a major nation over a few trespassers that had no affiliation with that nation's government.

The fact the missionaries were acting on behalf of the Chantry/Orlais proves otherwise,and they came back with a heavily armed contingent when they should have stayed away the first time.

How often does it need to be said that the Chantry is not an arm of Orlais?  Don't pretend that a few Templars constitutes an Orlesian invasion of the Dales.

And yes, maybe they should have stayed away, but that's not the point I'm arguing.  The Elves invaded and sacked a nation that had done nothing to them save have the Chantry based in it.

I would argue that the Chantry has a much stronger prescene in Orlais than you give them credit for. And they have a full templar army at their command, a lot more than just a "few" templars.

[cjones91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I just did.If the Chantry were allowed inside the Dales then there would'nt be a conflict to start with.Instead they barged into sovereign lands and did'nt care if the elves would have a problem with it.

People keep bring this up as if it were rational to declare war on a major nation over a few trespassers that had no affiliation with that nation's government.

The fact the missionaries were acting on behalf of the Chantry/Orlais proves otherwise,and they came back with a heavily armed contingent when they should have stayed away the first time.

How often does it need to be said that the Chantry is not an arm of Orlais?  Don't pretend that a few Templars constitutes an Orlesian invasion of the Dales.

And yes, maybe they should have stayed away, but that's not the point I'm arguing.  The Elves invaded and sacked a nation that had done nothing to them save have the Chantry based in it.

Considering the Chantry was created by Emperor Drakon and they have supported them ever since I'd say the Chantry is a part of Orlais.

[Heimdall]

RepHope wrote...

So they did trespass? How soon where the missionaries kicked out and why? Just because they were Andrastian?

That, and because they were human.  The Dalish elves believe the very presence of humans leeches away their immortality and were in the middle of trying to revive their ancient religion at the time.

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I just did.If the Chantry were allowed inside the Dales then there would'nt be a conflict to start with.Instead they barged into sovereign lands and did'nt care if the elves would have a problem with it.

People keep bringing this up as if it were rational to declare war on a major nation over a few trespassers that had no affiliation with that nation's government or military. 

Loghain and Maric's conversation about the Chantry would suggest otherwise.

Also, Alistair refers to the templars as an army. As the codex addresses (emphasis mine): "In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices."

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...
Considering the Chantry was created by Emperor Drakon and they have supported them ever since I'd say the Chantry is a part of Orlais.

Drakon was long dead by this point and the ruler after him never had authority over the Chantry.  The Chantry has supported Orlais because they were able to follow in the wake of Orlesian armies to spread the chant and it's simply wise to stay in the good graces of your neighbor (Elves couldn't understand that evidently).

Equating them is erroneous and you only do so to further your argument.

[cjones91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Considering the Chantry was created by Emperor Drakon and they have supported them ever since I'd say the Chantry is a part of Orlais.

Drakon was long dead by this point and the ruler after him never had authority over the Chantry.  The Chantry has supported Orlais because they were able to follow in the wake of Orlesian armies to spread the chant and it's simply wise to stay in the good graces of your neighbor (Elves couldn't understand that evidently).

Equating them is erroneous and you only do so to further your argument.

What?They are a part of Orlais,the Chantry's base of power is in Orlais,the Divine resides in Orlais. So how can they not be part of Orlais if their origins are with them?

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Loghain and Maric's conversation about the Chantry would suggest otherwise.

Also, Alistair refers to the templars as an army. As the codex addresses (emphasis mine): "In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices."

I don't recall the conversation and it was centuries later anyway.  What's your point?

I know he does, but the simple fact is that they're scattered throughout the countryside or required to man their posts in the Circles most of the time.  They are armed and armored, but hardly a standing army.  They have never been employed as such and know little about waging wars.

[cjones91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Loghain and Maric's conversation about the Chantry would suggest otherwise.

Also, Alistair refers to the templars as an army. As the codex addresses (emphasis mine): "In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices."

I don't recall the conversation and it was centuries later anyway.  What's your point?

I know he does, but the simple fact is that they're scattered throughout the countryside or required to man their posts in the Circles most of the time.  They are armed and armored, but hardly a standing army.  They have never been employed as such and know little about waging wars.

Most templars are recruited from armies and other military groups.

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...

What?They are a part of Orlais,the Chantry's base of power is in Orlais,the Divine resides in Orlais. So how can they not be part of Orlais if their origins are with them?

Just because the Vatican is in Italy does not mean its a subdivision of the Italian government.  The Chantry is an autonomous organization even if they tend to favor the Orlesians and are based within their borders.

I'm not denying that they're affiliated, but to say that the actions of the Chantry are the actions of Orlais is disingenuous. 

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Loghain and Maric's conversation about the Chantry would suggest otherwise.

Also, Alistair refers to the templars as an army. As the codex addresses (emphasis mine): "In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices."

I don't recall the conversation and it was centuries later anyway.  What's your point?

I know he does, but the simple fact is that they're scattered throughout the countryside or required to man their posts in the Circles most of the time.  They are armed and armored, but hardly a standing army.  They have never been employed as such and know little about waging wars.

Most templars are recruited from armies and other military groups.

Point, missing it

[BlueMagitek]

cjones91 wrote...

Most templars are recruited from armies and other military groups.

Where did you get this information?  From the Templars we've met and have some idea into their backstory, Alistar was more or less raised to be one and there are Templar recruitments in Kirkwall, which doesn't really have a standing army.

[cjones91]

BlueMagitek wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Most templars are recruited from armies and other military groups.

Where did you get this information?  From the Templars we've met and have some idea into their backstory, Alistar was more or less raised to be one and there are Templar recruitments in Kirkwall, which doesn't really have a standing army.

It just seems logical that the Chantry would recruit people who have combat experiece into the templar ranks,Evangeline was trained by a chevalier and I assume the more higher ranked templars have some martial training.It's alot cheaper to recruit people who know how to wield a sword rather than spend time and money teaching them how to begin with.

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

What?They are a part of Orlais,the Chantry's base of power is in Orlais,the Divine resides in Orlais. So how can they not be part of Orlais if their origins are with them?

Just because the Vatican is in Italy does not mean its a subdivision of the Italian government.  The Chantry is an autonomous organization even if they tend to favor the Orlesians and are based within their borders.

I'm not denying that they're affiliated, but to say that the actions of the Chantry are the actions of Orlais is disingenuous. 

They are involved with each other. Orlais became openly involved with attacking the elves after the elven attack on Red Crossing. If templars were invading the Dales to force conversion, the elves could have been focusing on the source of the templar incursion.

[BlueMagitek]

cjones91 wrote...

It just seems logical that the Chantry would recruit people who have combat experiece into the templar ranks,Evangeline was trained by a chevalier and I assume the more higher ranked templars have some martial training.It's alot cheaper to recruit people who know how to wield a sword rather than spend time and money teaching them how to begin with.

It appears that they do both.

[cjones91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Loghain and Maric's conversation about the Chantry would suggest otherwise.

Also, Alistair refers to the templars as an army. As the codex addresses (emphasis mine): "In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices."

I don't recall the conversation and it was centuries later anyway.  What's your point?

I know he does, but the simple fact is that they're scattered throughout the countryside or required to man their posts in the Circles most of the time.  They are armed and armored, but hardly a standing army.  They have never been employed as such and know little about waging wars.

Most templars are recruited from armies and other military groups.

Point, missing it

How so?Not every templar is a sheltered choir boy and I'm sure most have been in battle before.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

What?They are a part of Orlais,the Chantry's base of power is in Orlais,the Divine resides in Orlais. So how can they not be part of Orlais if their origins are with them?

Just because the Vatican is in Italy does not mean its a subdivision of the Italian government.  The Chantry is an autonomous organization even if they tend to favor the Orlesians and are based within their borders.

I'm not denying that they're affiliated, but to say that the actions of the Chantry are the actions of Orlais is disingenuous. 

They are involved with each other. Orlais became openly involved with attacking the elves after the elven attack on Red Crossing. If templars were invading the Dales to force conversion, the elves could have been focusing on the source of the templar incursion.

After the Dales attacked Orlais, Orlais became involved?  My goodness, you're totally right, it was definately Chantry Blood Mages who convinced the Dalish to start the war.  Making it entirely the Chantry's fault!  My eyes have been opened!

[The Hierophant]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

What?They are a part of Orlais,the Chantry's base of power is in Orlais,the Divine resides in Orlais. So how can they not be part of Orlais if their origins are with them?

Just because the Vatican is in Italy does not mean its a subdivision of the Italian government.  The Chantry is an autonomous organization even if they tend to favor the Orlesians and are based within their borders.

I'm not denying that they're affiliated, but to say that the actions of the Chantry are the actions of Orlais is disingenuous. 

Plus even though it started out solely as Orlesian, the inclusion of members who's nationalities are Nevarran, Ferelden, Free Marcher, Antivan and Rivaini, the Chantry runs the risk in creating another schism like with the Tevinter's Imperial Chantry.

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Aesir wrote…

I know he does, but the simple fact is that they're scattered throughout the countryside or required to man their posts in the Circles most of the time.  They are armed and armored, but hardly a standing army.  They have never been employed as such and know little about waging wars.

<_